14 replies to this topic

[the punk who stole your thunder]

Ahoy,

i feel the need to explain/discuss my use of two TAGs on this STK-3H build.

It is a simple LRM50-boat with two ML for close combat carnage, full armour, a STD 260 engine, AMS, two DHS and 1620 Missiles to send away - and two TAG, one in each arm even while i know that the effects do not stack.

I play this lrm-boat close to the front line, usual combat range is around 400 to 300 meters. Being an assault mech i feel the need to assist the team relativly close by and also take my share of the damage. Even presentig myself to the enemy as a target for example during a push helps the team.

So i often lose one arm/torso - the old STK-illnes. Being a lrm-boat, i am to often nearly useless without a TAG. As i have already tons of ammo, enough speed for positioning and enough cooling i decided for the second TAG to be a valuable asset in any case. Carrying a STD-engine an accepting the loss of a torso, i have to take in account the loss of a TAG.

So thats the reason for my second TAG on this build.

Its my first lrm-boat i play since i start with MWO. Until then i was only on the hurting side of the lrm-rainbow ;-) It's fun to play it as a kind of "lrm-brawler".

Any suggestions/comments welcomed :-)

<o

edit: i use the two modules "adv. target decay" and "adv. sensor range" with this build

Edited by Laggy Luke, 18 April 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

If you ask me, this is a good build ... TAG redundancy is very useful for St.engine Stalker for apparent reasons. Only Stalker that doesn't need it is the 5M, but the 5M has less missile tubes.

Edit: Also ... you might want to strip armor off the legs just a little bit and add CASE into your side torsoes.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 18 April 2014 - 12:18 AM.

[The Basilisk]

[....my share of damage....]
Every damage taken by your team is basicaly wrong and a mistake to be corrected.
A common misconception in this game is the fiction of the tanking assault.
Since there are no healers in this game there are no tanks.
Bringing something so hitable and clumsy like an assault mech close to the enemy is an error. An assault mech can't realy take more damage than most medium mechs because of its large surface and its large hitboxes. While the more slender and nible medium is able to dissipate much damage over its whole body the assault will just get cored.
So bringing any assault into a range where its even more easy to hit is just.....wrong.

Bringing a second tag: Yea why not. Since 1t wont give you realy any other advantage in your build why not. You shouldn't be able to use the med lasers because you should never get in range with them. So bringing one more wont yield results. And one heatsink more might not fit.

[the punk who stole your thunder]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 April 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

If you ask me, this is a good build ... TAG redundancy is very useful for St.engine Stalker for apparent reasons. Only Stalker that doesn't need it is the 5M, but the 5M has less missile tubes.

Edit: Also ... you might want to strip armor off the legs just a little bit and add CASE into your side torsoes.

Tanks for the feedback.

Regarding the CASE its a good idea - makes the build even more durable.

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

[....my share of damage....]
Every damage taken by your team is basicaly wrong and a mistake to be corrected.
A common misconception in this game is the fiction of the tanking assault.
Since there are no healers in this game there are no tanks.

I see it a bit different: As an assault i can take some hits that would wreck a lighter mech. Sure it is just a question of time when even an assault is going down, but for example taking two AC20 round of thet AS comin in to give a SHD the chance to survive and flank him.

Taking DPS from the ememy team is a relieve for the rest of my own one. That does not mean i aks for getting shot, but experience shows it happens ;-)

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

Bringing something so hitable and clumsy like an assault mech close to the enemy is an error. An assault mech can't realy take more damage than most medium mechs because of its large surface and its large hitboxes. While the more slender and nible medium is able to dissipate much damage over its whole body the assault will just get cored.
So bringing any assault into a range where its even more easy to hit is just.....wrong.

In theory i am completly with you. But in prectise it shows that during a combat the geometry (front, flank, terrain) changes as the battle moves on. It happens you suddenly find yourself closer to the front than you expect and there are times when it is necessary to hold a flank untill reinforcements come in.

Another point is a psychological effect: The presence of an Assault is oftren enough a reason for other mech to stay and fight so that an important position ist not faltering. Same goes for a determined push into an emey position: an assault moving next to you is some kind of inspiring - sometimes ;-)

Flowing with the battle brings you sometimes in situations where you have the chance to offer a good figth - even when being destroyed - some "blood" has to be shed on the field of honour ;-)

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

Bringing a second tag: Yea why not. Since 1t wont give you realy any other advantage in your build why not. You shouldn't be able to use the med lasers because you should never get in range with them. So bringing one more wont yield results. And one heatsink more might not fit.

Exactly me thoughts - thanks for your comments :-)

[Ted The Prussian Striker]

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

[....my share of damage....]
Every damage taken by your team is basicaly wrong and a mistake to be corrected.

You are right that it should be avoided, but it cannot be corrected. Once you are in a position like that, it does not matter how you ended up there. Maybe you had to walk forward to open the fire-lane for your comrades or you were surprised or you attacked what looked like a outflanked mech and turned out to be the main force - whatever it is, mistakes do happen and only the most stupid commanders would not care about contingency planning.

[PhoenixFire55]

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

A common misconception in this game is the fiction of the tanking assault.
Since there are no healers in this game there are no tanks.
Bringing something so hitable and clumsy like an assault mech close to the enemy is an error. An assault mech can't realy take more damage than most medium mechs because of its large surface and its large hitboxes.

Off topic, but ...

This is most wrong. Especially so for heavy/assault LRM boats. Go get closer to your enemy, take an alpha or two from a jumpsniper/brawler. Because if you don't your own jumpsniper/brawler will take them, so he'll die sooner and won't kill that last pesky light/medium. And then that light/medium that stayed alive will come and eat you inside 180m, the fact that you stayed fresh till the very end of the game won't help you.

[PhoenixFire55]

Laggy Luke, on 18 April 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

I see it a bit different: As an assault i can take some hits that would wreck a lighter mech. Sure it is just a question of time when even an assault is going down, but for example taking two AC20 round of thet AS comin in to give a SHD the chance to survive and flank him.

Taking DPS from the ememy team is a relieve for the rest of my own one. That does not mean i aks for getting shot, but experience shows it happens ;-)

If only more players actually realized this then 12-0 / 12-2 stomps wouldn't be happening that often.

If you could actually look at the winning team mechs in 12-0 match, you'd see that most of them if not all of them are actually badly damaged, which only means that they all shared taken damage equally, healthier mechs stepped up front half-way into match and allowed beaten front line mechs to live. Much like the roman legionaires with velites, hastatii, principes and triarii engaging in that order and rotating up front.

[Ultimax]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 April 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

Edit: Also ... you might want to strip armor off the legs just a little bit and add CASE into your side torsoes.

Yes, and once he does that - move the two tons of LRM ammo from the Right arm into the Right Torso where the CASE will be.

[aniviron]

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

[....my share of damage....]
Every damage taken by your team is basicaly wrong and a mistake to be corrected.
A common misconception in this game is the fiction of the tanking assault.
Since there are no healers in this game there are no tanks.
Bringing something so hitable and clumsy like an assault mech close to the enemy is an error. An assault mech can't realy take more damage than most medium mechs because of its large surface and its large hitboxes. While the more slender and nible medium is able to dissipate much damage over its whole body the assault will just get cored.
So bringing any assault into a range where its even more easy to hit is just.....wrong.

That's only true if you're exposing yourself to, say, snipers, where after you take the damage the attacker is gone.

If you're in the middle of a brawl, your opponent is spending heat and more importantly time to destroy your assault mech. It's not uncommon for heavies and sometimes even mediums to come close to assaults in firepower, but the assault has the staying power to turn the tide of a battle. If I'm in an Atlas and there are three Hunchbacks with AC20s behind me, taking damage is my priority. Those three HBKs will be pounding away with AC20s all battle, but they can be disarmed and then killed in just a few seconds. My Atlas, however, will take much longer to put down, so I want to be taking damage to the arms and side torsi while my teammates score damage uninterrupted. Obviously I don't want to die in the Atlas, but the whole point of taking one is to provide a shield for your teammates during brawls.

More to the point, it doesn't matter if you finish the match at 20% health, you're still alive and helping your team win just by being alive. If you losing health without dying means your teammates are able to keep firing without getting killed, then you're doing a great service to your team. So OP, keep tanking for your team. Your lighter friends appreciate it.

[Arc Viper]

I prefer to go with my LRM 100 build. I use it for my 5m but you can use it for your stalker as well. Redundancy is something I don't really like when building mechs. I go with 4xLRM 20s + artimis. I have no BAP or TAG, so I depend on my allies to get a lock on an enemy. From what I have seen, shooting from complete cover is what all pro LRM players do. I also have no med lasers. I mean, if you are forced to shoot off medium lasers, you are doing something wrong. Stalkers, especially missle boats, cant go head to head with the pinpoint damage of other assults' sniper builds. When I enter any battle, I bring the rain. Nothing like shooting of 100 lrms at once and watching the enemy twirl around like a ballerina as they panic.

My strategy: stay with the big group, never stop moving, and only soak up damage as necessary to keep the heat off of your allies.

Weakness: Relies somewhat on having competent team mates

Edited by Arc Viper, 23 April 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Zeede]

Arc Viper, on 23 April 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

From what I have seen, shooting from complete cover is what all pro LRM players do. I also have no med lasers. I mean, if you are forced to shoot off medium lasers, you are doing something wrong.

No, pro LRM players get line of sight so Artemis kicks in, then add TAG on top of it.

On an Assault LRM boat a few tons and slots set aside to have backup weapons like medium lasers is what smart players do. If ammo runs dry, you aren't useless, and even just a pair of medium lasers is enough to damage/kill other mechs.
If you are out of ammo, then the remaining enemy mechs will all be damaged, and generally as a LRM boat you will be pretty fresh. By moving in to tank hits you are allowing damaged but still functional teammates to keep outputting damage.

[Munin Ravensong]

Are all your tubes able to fire in a single volley? If not you might be able to save some weight by downsizing some of the launchers to match tube counts.

Do you normally die while you still have ammo? If so, you can probaby afford to drop a some ammo to free up slots & weight to up-size your back up weapons a little.

You already adressed speed, and survivability.

(My own stalker is an LRM 50 build, and varies from dual mlas, dual tag in the arm on up to ERPPC + large las left arm & erppc+tag in the right - depending on how well I am doing at maintaining range & how my aim is going that night)



P.S. I would only laugh at a backup tag on an LRM stalker if they are both in the same body part - otherwise it's a redundant back up of a critical combat system

[Jon Gotham]

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

So bringing any assault into a range where its even more easy to hit is just.....wrong.

I cannot disagree with this statement more. Shocking, utterly shocking.

OP, a thought I had to your good build. Have you tried pairing up your lrm launchers to a group for each side of the mech? So that way you can present a couple of launchers + your TAG if you are say, rounding a rise and only have your right side showing? Might help you present less of a target when needed?
Just a thought:)

[juxstapo]

The Basilisk, on 18 April 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

[....my share of damage....]
Every damage taken by your team is basicaly wrong and a mistake to be corrected.

And yet since we're all supposedly in three story tall machines with weapons with x lag time/recharge time/lock time/etc. it becomes such a statistical anomaly as to be practically impossible to put down a dozen other machines while none of yours take damage.
It may be a mistake, but it's not one that's going away if we're playing the same game.

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A common misconception in this game is the fiction of the tanking assault.
Since there are no healers in this game there are no tanks.

I was under the impression the term "tank" in this context meant something that could handle damage, not things that negate it entirely... nevermind, there are most certainly healers in this game, they're called Astrotechs (astechs for short). I mean.. the healers in this game are called the removal of RnR. Yea.

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Bringing something so hitable and clumsy like an assault mech close to the enemy is an error.

Many Victor and Highlander pilots take issue with this. Oh nevermind.
Lets fantasize for a second and say I agreed with your world view here... how do you reconcile the size of the maps and the speed of the opposition with this philosophy? "Oh, your easily hittable assault wasn't meant to be swarmed by lights so putting it anywhere on the map where any other mech could reach is just.... wrong"

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An assault mech can't realy take more damage than most medium mechs because of its large surface and its large hitboxes.

^Sophistry

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While the more slender and nible medium is able to dissipate much damage over its whole body the assault will just get cored.

^Fantasy... wish it were true however. I haven't perfected my [jump-turn to put that last little bit of damage on the cockpit instead of my stripped CT] move with my Blackjacks... would love to though.

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So bringing any assault into a range where its even more easy to hit is just.....wrong.

whatever man. As a medium pilot I (and the rest of the Corsair's skirmishers) love me some big bad bruisers to stomp up and take the heat off when it gets thick .

Quote

Bringing a second tag: Yea why not. Since 1t wont give you realy any other advantage in your build why not. You shouldn't be able to use the med lasers because you should never get in range with them.

Rgr.. will start telling the new recruits this. "NEVER get in range for medium lasers, you are BREAKING THE GAME if you do this. It is fundamentally wrong and bad and you should feel bad." | "But sarge, what if they run towards us?" | "THEN YOU RUN BACKWARDS FASTER"

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So bringing one more wont yield results.

Much like this post.

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And one heatsink more might not fit.

O_O that.... actually seemed grounded in reality.

Because, y'know, the ton would be free but he might not have enough slots...

that was actually pretty good.

[Konril]

Arc Viper, on 23 April 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I prefer to go with my LRM 100 build. I use it for my 5m but you can use it for your stalker as well. Redundancy is something I don't really like when building mechs. I go with 4xLRM 20s + artimis. I have no BAP or TAG, so I depend on my allies to get a lock on an enemy. From what I have seen, shooting from complete cover is what all pro LRM players do.

Oh my, I look away for a little bit and just look what happens.

Artemis requires line of sight to the target in order to get the accuracy bonuses. So if shooting from complete cover is what you intend to do, the Artemis system is a waste of money. In fact, the NARC missile beacon gives bigger tracking and lock on bonuses, but only to standard missiles. So Artemis missiles can actually be worse than standard missiles when fired indirectly at NARCced opponents.

Pull that Artemis out and use the weight savings for a TAG laser and Beagle already. Or pull it and use the weight saving for a bigger launcher or two. Or more ammo. If you have no intention of getting line-of-sight yourself, it isn't doing you any good anyway.