219 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 19 April 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

The problem isnt weight. A 95 ton banshee has no shortage of tonnage. The problem is hardpoints. Nothing above 70 tons can run dual gauss. But a banshee can run dual ppc AND three Ac5.

If we had an assault mech that could run dual gauss, you probably would see dual gauss, dual ppc builds. But the fact is we dont have anything like that right now. Maybe once the Mauler comes out.

But theres also the fact the Gauss does lousy dps and a weapon thats harder to use should outperform a weapon thats easier to use. Gauss should outperform dual AC5s and doesnt.

because 15 pinpoint damage gun that can reach 2000 meters and requires essentially no lead, EVER due to projectile speed is vastly outperformed. at 1/3 the heat of the ac5, to boot. (not terribly relevant, but hey its a fact)

Nice change of argument form "almost the same weight" to on a Banshee weight is not an issue........

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 19 April 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

If Gauss was worth using, players would use it regardless of how hard it was to learn. The reason Gauss is no longer worth using is because its rate of fire and DPS were nerfed into the ground. They added 0.75 chargeup time but never took 0.75 seconds off the cooldown. It no longer competes with autocannons for DPS.

Neither does the PPC but that's a "meta-weapon" right?

[Khobai]

Quote

Nice change of argument form "almost the same weight" to on a Banshee weight is not an issue........

i never changed my argument. you cant put more than one gauss on a banshee. so the weight isnt the brick wall. the hardpoints are.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 April 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

unlike most people on here, i'm not blaming anything. i'm laughing at the sheep that lap up the nonsense while i consistently beat the meta without stooping to it. but by all means, keep believing the hype.

If you consistently beat the meta, then why do I see you all the time and consistently kill your "meta beater builds" in my meta builds...?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

If you consistently beat the meta, then why do I see you all the time and consistently kill your "meta beater builds" in my meta builds...?

By all means post the screenshots of those matches lad. I can't recall ever seeing your name in match, and I highly doubt you ever took me solo unless I was pretty damaged. I'll wait.

[Gyrok]

Cathy, on 19 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Only if your completely ignoring the weight and critical slots of the other weapons systems in the build, and 75 shot as opposed to 30 shots a tonne

Issue there is the fact that those 75 shots only net you the same amount of damage as the 30 shots from the AC5

75x2=150
30x5=150
15x10=150
15x10=150
20x7=140

The only weapon that offers less damage per ton of ammo is the AC20.

It may "feel" like you have more ammo, but in essence, you effectively do not...

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

because 15 pinpoint damage gun that can reach 2000 meters and requires essentially no lead, EVER due to projectile speed is vastly outperformed. at 1/3 the heat of the ac5, to boot. (not terribly relevant, but hey its a fact)

Nice change of argument form "almost the same weight" to on a Banshee weight is not an issue........

This is pure hyperbole...try shooting Gauss @ 2k meters and not leading.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

By all means post the screenshots of those matches lad. I can't recall ever seeing your name in match, and I highly doubt you ever took me solo unless I was pretty damaged. I'll wait.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I do not bother to screen shot matches just because I killed bishop steiner...unless I went over 1200 in those matches I likely do not have it. I can look later...but killing you does not make my "screenshot necessary" list...

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I do not bother to screen shot matches just because I killed bishop steiner...unless I went over 1200 in those matches I likely do not have it. I can look later...but killing you does not make my "screenshot necessary" list...

Gonna talk the talk better walk the walk. Lol. Get over yourself. I'm sure you have killed me. 20,000 matches your pretty much killed and been killed by everyone. Funny that you don't track it though, yet are so sure you've done it many times. Carry harder lead, carry harder.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

This is pure hyperbole...try shooting Gauss @ 2k meters and not leading.

Ohmahgerd! He dun used hyperbowl on a thread entitled based on it!

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Ohmahgerd! He dun used hyperbowl on a thread entitled based on it!

You expect people to take you seriously and you are not being serious...

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Gonna talk the talk better walk the walk. Lol. Get over yourself. I'm sure you have killed me. 20,000 matches your pretty much killed and been killed by everyone. Funny that you don't track it though, yet are so sure you've done it many times. Carry harder lead, carry harder.

I see you ALL the time...not sure how on earth you missed me, you and Cathy and DoctaD, and the the guys from Murphy's Law whenever they are around...(seems much less lately). Though I suppose that only tells me who is actually paying attention that you do not notice me, but I notice you. Explains why you die so easily.

Reminds me of a quote from "The Outlaw Josey Wales"

"I thought Indians were supposed to be hard to sneak up on..."

"They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on..."

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 19 April 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Being easy to use is not a requirement of a meta build though.

A meta build typically just refers to a dominant build, not necessarily a build thats easy to use. if you have two players of equal skill and one is in a meta build and the other isnt, the one thats in the meta build should win 99% of the time. The exception to that is if the other player is in a counter-meta build.

So for example, if you know before you enter a game that most players will be using PPCs, and knowing that, decided to take a fast mech that can get inside that 90m deadzone of PPCs, then youve just built a counter-meta mech.

This is very true...

Let us consider this:

AC20 + 2xPPC meta build can do 40 damage out to 270m to a specific point on a mech. Accounting for recharge that is 4 seconds of 10 DPS delivered in 1 blast. If an enemy needs 40 damage to die, 1 blast kills it in that interval to 1 section of the mech.

With 3xAC2, DPS is now 9.03 per second...but it is *NOT* burst damage, it is applied over time in a sustained manner. This means that same mech that required 40 damage to die to 1 specific location will now take 4.42 seconds to kill...

However, because you are not firing one blast at one component, let us say they can torso twist a modicum, and account for the 60% hit chance because we are using damage over time. I would wager the average hit ratio for a player using AC2 is somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-70%. So if 30% of shots miss, and say another 20% hit an unintended area because of the target moving, now we have increased that 4.42 seconds to 6.83 seconds.

That is 6.83 seconds you must be exposed firing sustained on the target. Before, it was bad enough, however, now DPS weapons can no longer compete with burst damage pinpoint alpha builds. They really did not compete before, but it was close enough you could use it and still be effective enough if you did not want to run a meta alpha strike build. Now, multiply that out over the course of coring an Atlas with ~100 CT armor. The differences become staggering.

Instead, as with every other change to weapon mechanics, high pinpoint alpha strike builds are being reinforced and DPS builds are being nerfed because...well...because...PGI cannot think of anything better to do with their time? I cannot fathom what the reason is...but the balance passes being made do not relate to solving the issues, and barely even manage to treat the symptoms.

I really hate to give negative feedback in such a way, especially as a game developer myself...but the reality is the writing is on the wall. They do not know how to solve the issue that the community has and are trying to treat symptoms.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 April 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Koniving]

Sable, on 18 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I didn't change any of my mechs with ac2s. They are actually more efficient now. The slight decrese in cooldown has had the effect of slowing heat generation noticeably. Not all weapons are made for maximum dps. AC2s (being the lowest caliber autocannon) are still good at what they have always been good at, supressing fire and making people panic from a constant ballistic barrage.

I hate having to say this every time a weapon change happens but dangit learn to adapt already. Not every change is a personal attack on you.

Now if they'd just remove ghost heat from them...

[Koniving]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

They do not know how to solve the issue that the community has and are trying to treat symptoms.

They do know but won't do it.
Autocannons by lore require multiple shots to do their damage ratings. The largest Inner Sphere AC/20 on a mech or tank is the Chemjet Gun, a 4 shot AC/20 stated in TRO 3026 as a "slow-burst" weapon.

What we have are Rifles, not Autocannons.
For a brief comparison, the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon. 4 shots at 5 damage each gives it the AC/20 rating. It generates 7 heat (6 heat in MWO) and has 5 cassettes (magazines; basically 5 reloads of 4 shots each per ton of ammunition) where in MWO it's 7 cassettes per ton at current settings. Recoil from firing ACs are what cause their range limitations.
The Heavy Rifle I have found in Battletech fiction is a 190mm single shot weapon which had 6 rounds, took a while to reload, generated 4 heat and against modern armor only does 6 damage.

185mm at 5 damage.
190mm at 6 damage.
But again, PGI won't do it.

Edited by Koniving, 20 April 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

You expect people to take you seriously and you are not being serious...



I see you ALL the time...not sure how on earth you missed me, you and Cathy and DoctaD, and the the guys from Murphy's Law whenever they are around...(seems much less lately). Though I suppose that only tells me who is actually paying attention that you do not notice me, but I notice you. Explains why you die so easily.

Reminds me of a quote from "The Outlaw Josey Wales"

"I thought Indians were supposed to be hard to sneak up on..."

"They call us civilized because we are easy to sneak up on..."

Keep trying, noble forumwarrior, keep trying. You see, I pay attention and know who the regular REAL threats are. And do my best to return the favor. If I haven't noticed you, it says you haven't done enough to be noticed. Which means any kills you side against me were likely you getting the kill shot while I'm being focused fire on at the end of a match after my lovely fellow PUGlies got themselves rolled, or a chance shot on me after I tore for of your teammates to sheds and was near death anyhow.

But keep telling yourself that you're special and all if it makes your game more fun. I don't expect to to go out of my way to notice you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 April 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Rubidiy]

Using AC/2s always mean a lot of heat generation, so there used to be quite a few builds, that had better DPS and "DAKKA-shield" with UAC5+AC2 compared to 2xAC5. Not anymore...
It's 6tons of weight never really were just 6 tons, 'cause you always had to stuff a lot of heatsinks into your mech, to be able to shoot properly. So now they still need additional heatsinks, but do same damage as AC5s.
Cann't remember when PGI managed to make a proper nerf of any weapon. If you lower AC/2's DPS, then lower it's heat generation, but noooo...

Edited by Rubidiy, 20 April 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 20 April 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

But again, PGI won't do it.

We actually got an explanation on why, if that is any help....

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

Keep trying, noble forumwarrior, keep trying. You see, I pay attention and know who the regular REAL threats are. And do my best to return the favor. If I haven't noticed you, it says you haven't done enough to be noticed. Which means any kills you side against me were likely you getting the kill shot while I'm being focused fire on at the end of a match after my lovely fellow PUGlies got themselves rolled, or a chance shot on me after I tore for of your teammates to sheds and was near death anyhow.

But keep telling yourself that you're special and all if it makes your game more fun. I don't expect to to go out of my way to notice you.

LOL...you really are a riot...I should come hang out on the steiner hub and mess with you just for kicks and giggles. Perhaps we can zellbrigen some time in a friendly match and determine who is 'insignificant'...what do you say?

Edited by Gyrok, 20 April 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 20 April 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

We actually got an explanation on why, if that is any help....

I know. But considering how well other versions of the same Cry Engine can handle it just fine, and how well the game handled it before HSR and how well it handles me doing it with AC/2s (up til ghost heat punishes the heck out of me), there's absolutely no excuse for the technical reason.

As for the "flavor" reason, are PPCs and Gauss Rifles not flavor enough for single shot weapons?

[-Muta-]

More ammo... Not to say crit slots

So I kept them all