206 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

**For those who are confused about the point of the thread: It is about PGI still limiting big laser alpha to 2. So stick to that topic.

I believe I am not alone in being disappointed by the fact that PGI kept the Ghost Heat as is, for almost an entire year. Many players will agree when I say the GH mechanic is convoluted, and in some cases, out right nonsensical. Now I am not going to talk about a fix in this thread, because there have been dozens of threads made by people smarter than me, who offered alternatives to this GH mechanic. I am pretty much convinced the GH is here to stay no matter how big the community's outcry is, so let's not dwell on that.

However, one part of GH does not make any kind of sense from balance point of view--and balance was supposed to be what GH was all about. Take a look at the LLaser/ERLLaser/LPLaser alpha limitation at 2. For what reason would PGI keep the big laser alpha so limited? All it did was to help propel PPC/ERPPC as the weapon of choice for big sized energy load outs. Would it really kill them to change the big laser limitation to 3, at least in public test server? Perhaps then we will see a bit more variety.



Hell, I'll buy a Clan pack if someone from PGI's game balance department can make a satisfactory argument about keeping the big laser alphas at 2. Ball is on your court, PGI.

[FupDup]

[Daekar]

Ghost heat did exactly what they designed it to do, and changed the game for the better almost overnight. I sincerely hope they don't get rid of it without totally rebalancing the entire weapons balance.

EDIT: I use 3 Large Lasers and alpha them all the time. That's the last heat issue I would complain about. How about the heat level of medium pulses?

Edited by Daekar, 18 April 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ghost heat did exactly what they designed it to do

But what its designed to do is idiotic. And the way it goes about it is idiotic. Heres an example of how stupid it is:

If I fire one LRM20 and three LRM10s, for 50 missiles, I get MASSIVE ghost heat.

But if I fire two LRM20s and two LRM5s, for the same 50 missiles, I get no ghost heat.

Why? Whats the point of punishing the former combination but not the latter? Ghost heat is laughably easy to circumvent which is one of the main reasons it just doesnt work.

Quote

and changed the game for the better almost overnight.

In my opinion it made the game worse overnight. It destroyed numerous builds that werent even overpowered. And it forces you into using cookie cutter weapon combinations which circumvent ghost heat anyway (x2 ac5, x2 ppc for example). And despite ghost heat, PPCs are still the most overpowered weapon in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

Ghost heat is not what I would have done (I would have prefered scattering shots if you fire off an alpha strike), but I can argue that it did indeed start making people use other builds that were not as broken. Since then the PPC/AC-5 combo has become really popular, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before Ghost Heat was a thing.

Sorry, you have your preference, but don't assume we all agree with it.

[Sug]

Ghost Heat is like, five steps removed from the actual problem.

[ICEFANG13]

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

Ghost heat is not what I would have done (I would have prefered scattering shots if you fire off an alpha strike), but I can argue that it did indeed start making people use other builds that were not as broken. Since then the PPC/AC-5 combo has become really popular, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before Ghost Heat was a thing.

Sorry, you have your preference, but don't assume we all agree with it.

Its a bird its a plane its... a self destructing whale?

[aniviron]

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

Ghost heat is not what I would have done (I would have prefered scattering shots if you fire off an alpha strike), but I can argue that it did indeed start making people use other builds that were not as broken. Since then the PPC/AC-5 combo has become really popular, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before Ghost Heat was a thing.

Sorry, you have your preference, but don't assume we all agree with it.

The 6PPC stalker was terrible, always. It was never a real threat, and has consistently been raised as a bogeyman for nine months. It had a bit of a narcolepsy problem, and rarely did well.

The 4 PPC Stalker, now THAT was a threat, and quite an overpowered build, especially for something so simple to construct and use.

But you know what fixed that, what removed the 4 PPC Stalker from the battlefield? It wasn't ghost heat, people were still running them after ghost heat in 2 + 2 mode. No, it was raising the PPC's heat. Shocking, I know, that raising the heat of a weapon that was too good made it better balanced; it could probably still stand to have its heat bumped by one more.

I'll put it to you like this: At 10 heat, the PPC is too good. When the 4 PPC stalker build was prevalent, the PPC was at 7. What removed the problem with PPCs was fixing PPCs, not a complicated ghost heat system.

[Jin Ma]

As confusing as it may seem (could have been implemented a lot better)

you will be glad its in when the direwolf is in

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

Ghost heat is not what I would have done (I would have prefered scattering shots if you fire off an alpha strike), but I can argue that it did indeed start making people use other builds that were not as broken. Since then the PPC/AC-5 combo has become really popular, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before Ghost Heat was a thing.

Sorry, you have your preference, but don't assume we all agree with it.

he meant the AC40 jagers. and you thought they were a problem now.. lol

[Tezcatli]

It works well enough. And I really doubt they're going to waste the time removing it.

[Not Bob]

Perhaps this will help (The thread in whole, but this post in particular) http://mwomercs.com/...09#entry3287909

[Jin Ma]

Khobai, on 18 April 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

But what its designed to do is idiotic. And the way it goes about it is idiotic. Heres an example of how stupid it is:

If I fire one LRM20 and three LRM10s, for 50 missiles, I get MASSIVE ghost heat.

But if I fire two LRM20s and two LRM5s, for the same 50 missiles, I get no ghost heat.

Why? Whats the point of punishing the former combination but not the latter? Ghost heat is laughably easy to circumvent which is one of the main reasons it just doesnt work.



In my opinion it made the game worse overnight. It destroyed numerous builds that werent even overpowered. And it forces you into using cookie cutter weapon combinations which circumvent ghost heat anyway (x2 ac5, x2 ppc for example). And despite ghost heat, PPCs are still the most overpowered weapon in the game.

ooh yeah no, i have no idea why they added it for missiles both LRMs and SRMs. surely there was a more elegant way for those systems

[El Bandito]

Hey people, this thread is NOT about removing/replacing GH, though that would be welcome. It is about why PGI still limits the big laser alpha to 2. So lets stick to the topic, shall we?

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no. No. We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

No where in my thread, I advocated the return of that. Also, 6 PPC Stalker was never the meta. How soon people twist history.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 April 2014 - 10:05 PM.

[SweetJackal]

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

Ghost heat is not what I would have done (I would have prefered scattering shots if you fire off an alpha strike), but I can argue that it did indeed start making people use other builds that were not as broken. Since then the PPC/AC-5 combo has become really popular, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before Ghost Heat was a thing.

Sorry, you have your preference, but don't assume we all agree with it.

First off, Ghost Heat didn't kill the 6 PPC Stalker. The 6 PPC Stalker was killed by tweaks to the heat values of the PPC and ERPPC.

The 6 PPC Stalker was a joke anyways, it couldn't effectively fire all of it's weapons. The real build was a 4 PPC Stalker which stagger fired in volleys of 2 for most of it's combat life, only using a volley of 4 to finish a wounded target. The "6 Stalker" was a 6 LL Stalker which again was a dead build before Ghost Heat was put into the game.

So what did Ghost Heat save us from? Nothing. Ghost Heat did not kill any problematic build. All of them were either dead before by tweaks to the weapons or worked just fine after it. What Ghost Heat did kill was a number of outliner builds that were not pinpoint front loaded damage and still effective, a good number of the energy builds, by reducing their efficiency. The PPC Heat pummeling had players looking for alternatives around the same time which gave rise to the Gauss/PPC meta, at the time 2 Gauss 1PPC if memory serves me.

The 6 PPC Stalker, the 3 Second Jenner, the 6 MG Spider, these are all just bogeymen used to scare you. They were nothing more than phantoms.

Edited by SuckyJack, 18 April 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Remove ghost heat, drop medium laser heat by 1, institute Battletech's 30 point heat scale with full penalties PLUS put DHS to 2.0 AND center the 2 point heat cycle around the medium laser cycle time rather than ten seconds.

Done.

Game fixed. We all win.

Well, not quite completely... convergence will also need to be addressed later. But it is a start, right?

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

El Bandito, on 18 April 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hey people, this thread is NOT about removing/replacing GH, though that would be welcome. It is about why PGI still limits the big laser alpha to 2. So lets stick to the topic, shall we?

Because some genius put Paul at the wheel for game balance.

As to why PGI backed such an ass backward design decision instead of you know, fixing heat scale and adding heat penalties is BEYOND me.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Speaking only about the LL heat penalty limit of 2, it should go to 3; it should have gone to 3 already.

As for doing a broad-based rework or outright removal of the system, make your own thread to talk about it if you want to.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 18 April 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Speaking only about the LL heat penalty limit of 2, it should go to 3; it should have gone to 3 already.

As for doing a broad-based rework or outright removal of the system, make your own thread to talk about it if you want to.

Oh don't worry, the community is in absolute agreement. Three (possibly even dare I say FOUR?!) is the number that ghost heat should have no effect before dealing additional heat. Even more bs in the wound is that it applies to ANY type of large laser, despite a Pulse Large is supposed to be radically different in functionality and design to a standard Large but hey PGI clearly missed that memo and designed them to be identical minus shittier stats on the pulse and a different sound effect.

Edited by mwhighlander, 18 April 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

None of the PPC stalkers would be a problem if we didn't have pinpoint damage. Cone of fire fixes anything ghost heat says it fixes but doesn't.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

GreyGriffin, on 18 April 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

None of the PPC stalkers would be a problem if we didn't have pinpoint damage. Cone of fire fixes anything ghost heat says it fixes but doesn't.

Again, please note that this thread is for discussion of the 2 LL limit only. To discuss Ghost Heat generally, or quad-PPC Stalkers specifically, as well as alternative solutions to the problems they pose, please start your own thread (or search for one already up and running and post there).

El Bandito, on 18 April 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

**For those who are confused about the point of the thread: It is about PGI still limiting big laser alpha to 2. So stick to that topic.