206 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

PGI should make a challenge because of that and reward people with Awesome 8Q or Banshee 3M.

[Uncleclint]

I can see no reason why the GH limit shouldn´t be raised to 3 Large Lasers, i guess someone at PGI just failed to put enough attention to details...

But on the other hand i would like to see the LL stats being adjusted to the original BT values (8 dmg/ 8 ht) as well. That might actually make a difference between the Large Laser and the Large Pulse Laser, which is nowhere near the originally intended function of the tabletop game. I´d like to add that i would rather keep the limit of 2 for the LPLs and the ERLgs, with the change of LL stats in mind that i mentioned above.

[GreyGriffin]

Ok.

The 2 LL limit could be lifted if precision (i.e. single component) long-ranged alpha strikes were mitigated as a factor. Ghost heat was designed to limit the impact massive alpha strikes have on a single component. It hasn't really done this, but that is what PGI believes it is doing, and that is what it is designed to do. So, realistically, to raise or change this limit, the factor that they believe they are addressing has to be approached from another angle.

Convergence is not an option due to apparently insurmountable technical hurdles, so what's left? Cone of Fire. It's the only other reasonable way to disperse alpha strikes.

Spread out the damage, and the ttk and heat/kill rises, and the "need" for ghost heat to keep heat in play as a mitigating factor in combat is eliminated.

[El Bandito]

GreyGriffin, on 18 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Ok. The 2 LL limit could be lifted if precision (i.e. single component) long-ranged alpha strikes were mitigated as a factor. Ghost heat was designed to limit the impact massive alpha strikes have on a single component. It hasn't really done this, but that is what PGI believes it is doing, and that is what it is designed to do. So, realistically, to raise or change this limit, the factor that they believe they are addressing has to be approached from another angle. Convergence is not an option due to apparently insurmountable technical hurdles, so what's left? Cone of Fire. It's the only other reasonable way to disperse alpha strikes. Spread out the damage, and the ttk and heat/kill rises, and the "need" for ghost heat to keep heat in play as a mitigating factor in combat is eliminated.

But Lasers are damage over time weapons. They do not do full damage at the moment of impact, allowing plenty of time to spread the damage via movement, so I think it is not fair to keep LL/ERLL/LPL limited to 2.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 April 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[SweetJackal]

GreyGriffin, on 18 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Ok.

The 2 LL limit could be lifted if precision (i.e. single component) long-ranged alpha strikes were mitigated as a factor. Ghost heat was designed to limit the impact massive alpha strikes have on a single component. It hasn't really done this, but that is what PGI believes it is doing, and that is what it is designed to do. So, realistically, to raise or change this limit, the factor that they believe they are addressing has to be approached from another angle.

Convergence is not an option due to apparently insurmountable technical hurdles, so what's left? Cone of Fire. It's the only other reasonable way to disperse alpha strikes.

Spread out the damage, and the ttk and heat/kill rises, and the "need" for ghost heat to keep heat in play as a mitigating factor in combat is eliminated.

A bit off topic, but Cone Of Fire isn't the only way of dealing with convergence. Right now we have Instant Pinpoint Convergence as Dynamic Convergence is a pretty massive hurdle on netcode (PGI has also said that on internal tests it was "awful") but that doesn't mean we can't add in some static convergence, the focus distance of the weapons being preset and not changing during the match.

That is, arms with lower arm actuators would have the Instant Pinpoint Convergence we have now, everything else would have static convergence.

Anyways, I'm done derailing.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nothing lasts longer than a provisional.
Except maybe a bad idea.

[KhanCipher]

SuckyJack, on 19 April 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

(PGI has also said that on internal tests it was "awful")

They also internally tested 2.0 DHS and made the famous claim of the 3 second Jenner.

[CyclonerM]

Should i tell you all something funny? I almost never had a problem with Ghost Heat and i even forgot it. I do not like to use the builds it was designed to counter anyway.

BUT - there are far bettere solutions: Homeless Bill's targeting computer, convergence (where did they say it was impossible?) or a cone of fire like World of Tanks.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Hans Von Lohman, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

No.

We're not returning to the 6 PPC stalker meta. How soon people forget.

wow one shot chances in exchange for shutting down forever like a derp to be made mincmeat of by a laughing enemy a meta? how some of us HAVEN'T forgotten. try 4 ppc stalkers plus the new claimed-to-break-heat-mechanics-by-devs-but-added-anyway coolant flush and figure why it was a potant build.

and we got ghost heat ruining more than just this one thorn in the side.

simply add a convergence mechanic that means shots alphaed/grouped land on the edge of the reticle are made and chain fires are acurate. the pinpoint tree perk could then become an 2 weapons can converge bonus. and each weapon could be given a smaller or larger reticle based on it's pinpoint damage and velocity value.



not hard for a newbie to grasp all the mechanics are there to be seen and tested unlike ghost heat which has no quantative values given in game.

no more ghost heat for minimal tweaks in hud and code. job done. not dice rolls but not everything lands in one spot problems either, skill returns sensible gameplay mechanics come back, people wear smiles, and i'm sitting on a horse.

g'day mates!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 19 April 2014 - 02:45 AM.

[Grey Ghost]

I still don't see why LPLs needed to be linked with LLs & ERLLs in the first place. I suppose increasing the limit to 3 before Ghost Heat kicks in is better then nothing. Though I would settle for LPLs only being linked to themselves.

[MisterPlanetarian]

The 2LL Limit should be upped to 4, increased heat at 5 and above. LPL should get the same treatment.

ML and MPL should have their limits removed. They are hardly abusive weaponsystems. There are incredibly few mechs that could mount more than six anyway.


I also believe the Awesome should be unique in its ability to fire 3 PPC's without the penalty.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 19 April 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Ghost heat was just a temporary fix so everyone can relax. 4 man group limits is also temporary.... err... wait a minute....

MisterPlanetarian, on 19 April 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

The 2LL Limit should be upped to 4, increased heat at 5 and above. LPL should get the same treatment.

ML and MPL should have their limits removed. They are hardly abusive weaponsystems. There are incredibly few mechs that could mount more than six anyway.


I also believe the Awesome should be unique in its ability to fire 3 PPC's without the penalty.

I think all STOCK MECHS should be exempt from ghost heat, the engineers who created them would have found a way to minimize or negate the heat effects. (also it would help make stock mechs a more viable choice to drop in.)

[Yellow Kat]

aniviron, on 18 April 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'll put it to you like this: At 10 heat, the PPC is too good. When the 4 PPC stalker build was prevalent, the PPC was at 7. What removed the problem with PPCs was fixing PPCs, not a complicated ghost heat system.

If they are going by the TT/Boardgame's stats then 10 is what the PPC had for heat. ER PPCs had 15 for heat output.

[ICEFANG13]

Randalf Yorgen, on 19 April 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Ghost heat was just a temporary fix so everyone can relax. 4 man group limits is also temporary.... err... wait a minute....

[/size]

I think all STOCK MECHS should be exempt from ghost heat, the engineers who created them would have found a way to minimize or negate the heat effects. (also it would help make stock mechs a more viable choice to drop in.)

The removal of 5-11 queue was also temporary.

Stock mechs, except hero mechs, will never be viable when endo and DHS are so mandatory. There are almost no mech designs that can be better with SHS, and those that can don't have ENDO build in.

[Mcgral18]

KhanCipher, on 19 April 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

They also internally tested 2.0 DHS and made the famous claim of the 3 second Jenner.

I...but...the MLs take 4 seconds to recycle...

MisterPlanetarian, on 19 April 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

ML and MPL should have their limits removed. They are hardly abusive weaponsystems. There are incredibly few mechs that could mount more than six anyway.

MPLs don't have a limit, actually. They are just very hot.

Yellow Kat, on 19 April 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

If they are going by the TT/Boardgame's stats then 10 is what the PPC had for heat. ER PPCs had 15 for heat output.

They did buff them pretty significantly, hence why everyone has some equipped. But remember that the TT turn is 10 seconds. So, 10 heat and 10 damage over those 10 seconds. PGI goofed that one up.

[InRev]

Mcgral18, on 19 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

PGI goofed that one up.

You should put that on a t-shit.

I bet it would sell well.

[Mcgral18]

InRev, on 19 April 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

You should put that on a t-shit.

I bet it would sell well.

I used to be fond of "NARCed it up"...but they actually fixed that one.

[Lightfoot]

I agree completely. Ghost Heat was applied with a sledge hammer to the various weapon systems. Ghost Heat has no relevance to Battletech anyway, but no consideration to Battletech operational norms was made either. Due to PGI's addition of a beam duration to Battletech's Lasers there should be no Ghost Heat penalty for firing 3 of any kind of Laser and this is just common sense. It's asking for what should have been obvious.

[Mavairo]

Ghost Heat fixed nothing. Those of you who claim "but 6 ppc stalkers!" No, it was Quad PPC stalkers, as mentioned before in a 2+ 2 configuration with a 1 quad strike on wounded targets.

And even then frankly it wasn't terribly difficult if you had a modicum of processing power beneath the armor plating on your head to figure out how to get to range to deal with a Quad Mech. A Six mech was a joke that would spend so long shut down that it was pitifully easy to destroy.

LLs should NEVER have been set to 2 on Ghost heat. Quad LL was competitive, but not OP. I can not remember EVER having a problem dispatching a quad LL mech once the shock value wore off.

Lets see what Ghost heat did shall we? AC40 Jagers? Killed Bads. Everyone else, blew out their STs and either halfed their firepower or killed them, or simply out ran their optimal ranges due to being vastly faster. What do AC40 Jagers do now? Kill Bads. Everyone else just blows out their STs even easier now since they aren't going to tapping you until one of you dies.

LRMS: 2 20s and 2 10s were Never viable for anything but killing Bads. Post change? Now you'll never see anyone run 2 20s and 2 10s. Infact LRMs were so bad anyway that you scarcely saw them on the field anyway.
Post LRM Buff: Nope, still won't see 2 20s and 2 10s. And ghost heat isn't even the reason for that. (The spread is. GH second)

LLs: Quad LL, decent fairly competitive and mobile (on a K2), good solid build. Post Ghost Heat. Non Existent

MLs: There is a grand total of maybe 3 mechs that can run more than 6 MLs to start with... does anyone ever remember dying horribly to a 9 ML strike that you could do nothing about? I don't.

PPC+ACs... nope still here. Still the best option.

SRM Kitty Cats: Pre ghost heat... Killed Bads and people that fell victim to flank attacks. Post Ghost Heat. Nope it was still there.
What removed it? The changes to HSR and the completely wonky hit detection of SRMs. You'll see it's return soon if they really do have a working fix for SRMs coming by the end of the month. I've already bought my very first A1 and am running an LRM30 and SRM20 combo build. It's already terrifying, and it's just going to be gravy that it'll actually work on Each Trigger Pull instead of the gamble on hoping 12 or more land. I expect people are going to be raging like 12 year olds just starting puberty, when they realize their 2 AC5 2 PPC setups are about to get their **** kicked in harder than they were with the Fix to LRMs.

TLDR: Ghost Heat solved nothing.

[Amsro]

Daekar, on 18 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Ghost heat did exactly what they designed it to do, and changed the game for the better almost overnight. I sincerely hope they don't get rid of it without totally rebalancing the entire weapons balance.

EDIT: I use 3 Large Lasers and alpha them all the time. That's the last heat issue I would complain about. How about the heat level of medium pulses?

Wrong

The weapon balances that came in the same patch is what "fixed" the Meta (AKA made it silly not to take 2 PPC + Ballistic). This is a mistake that they continue to do, they modify too many variables and then have no idea which one actually fixed/broke the problem.

No real problem solving going on when you change multiple things.

10/15 heat made the previous 6 ERPPC mechs insane and a 6 PPC stalker would need to keep you past 90 meters. Light mech food.

Truly Ghost Heat is doing its best to nerf builds that aren't pinpoint accurate for no other reason then to push you into dual PPC + Ballistic. And has been so for over a year now, more proof that Ghost Heat failed.