Put The Victor Back!
#1
Posted 20 April 2014 - 04:18 PM
#2
Posted 20 April 2014 - 05:20 PM
Let me put it another way -
I am seriously considering selling my Battlemaster-1G now that PGI has graciously given me a Thunderbolt-9S that does the same job better. This kind of mobility restriction kills 'Mechs, and there was no reason for it here.
So in lieu of a more accurate option, I'll vote the first.
Edited by Osric Lancaster, 20 April 2014 - 05:37 PM.
#3
Posted 20 April 2014 - 06:20 PM
Edited by Flaming oblivion, 20 April 2014 - 06:27 PM.
#4
Posted 20 April 2014 - 06:59 PM
Flaming oblivion, on 20 April 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:
You should understand that what you read was probably written by the same group that claims that the LB 10-X is a good crit-killer, or the "flamers are OP, nerf nao" crowd. Here's a few threads where people used actual logic and math to debunk that 'argument' -
http://mwomercs.com/...-nerfed-victor/
http://mwomercs.com/...-to-the-victor/
The victor was never as mobile for it's engine size as a medium. It was as mobile as a low end assault or upper end heavy, because that's what it is.
Why do you think the Vic needed this nerf?
Do you remember when the trial assault was a missile stalker?
Don't see that many trial victors out now, do you?
#5
Posted 20 April 2014 - 07:23 PM
Yeah, never poptarted before. But now I am learning....
Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 20 April 2014 - 07:24 PM.
#6
Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:33 AM
#7
Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:03 AM
#8
Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:23 PM
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:
Strongest competitive mech? You must mean buff the weakest assault chassis in game currently...
To make a valid point. I saw more Awesome's over the weekend than Victors, in fact, I saw so many more awesomes than victors I had to look and see if they gave it away free or something.
Neg, the victor is so busted now that the worst assault mech in the game, is now better than the Victor.
#9
Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM
Gyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:
Watch some good streamers, or ask people from the best teams in various leagues. No, really, I can wait. From personal experience, the mech is still extremely strong.
The fact that it now requires skill to shine is precisely why it does not need a buff. Let me elaborate.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are purposefully easy mode for new players. For example, the AC40 Jager will score kills even if you are new, simply because of the alpha.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are OK at any level, and become better as your skill (e.g. aim) increases, but are not the best weapon hands down. MLs are OK for a noobie, and deadly in the hands of a skilled light pilot, but too hot to be useful in every situation.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are utter shit until/unless you really are good at tactics and piloting. Gauss charging is just plain hard for a new player -- pulling, timing with other weapons, while on the move, etc. PPCs with their range limitations high heat, and inability to re-focus a shot while it happens can also make heads scratch. JJ shake will not let a noobie jump-snipe easily. JJ nerfs will not let simple 1 JJ builds jump-snipe anymore -- you need to sacrifice something to get enough lift (guess what, mech building is also a skill component).
Edited by Modo44, 21 April 2014 - 12:55 PM.
#10
Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:
From personal experience, the mech is still extremely strong.
Calling a 'Mech strong is no more of an argument than calling it weak. You can't dismiss one subjective opinion as 'venting' and then give a different subjective opinion like it's Truth. That's not how reason works.
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:
1. -
Jagger : 40 pinpoint alpha AC/40, some ghost het/chain fire + 4 ml (20 semi-focused duration) -> ~60 damage, high mounted weapons, fairly short range.
Victor : 20+10 'pinpoint' alpha 2xPPC+2xAC/5 with ballistic drop off at range + streaks spread damage -> ~45 damage, jumps
= Sooo. . . you want to nerf the Jaggermech?
2. - What's your argument here? That the Victor was 'low skill'? How does a -20% turning speed make it more skill based? Why shouldn't we do it for all 'Mechs?
3. - Okay, as far as I can tell you're now talking about the jump jet nerf which makes me think you didn't read the poll or thread at all. How the what?
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:
This is pretty subjective, but if I take this logic as gospel then wouldn't it require more skill if we made it's turning even worse? Why not have an across the board 80% turning speed nerf for all chassis? Then they'll be super skill based! (wait, why does this make them more skill based and not just frustratingly annoying again? )
Note - Personally, I would be more okay with a bit of a nerf (torso twist speed only) to all chassis, and ideally a decoupling or reduction of effect from engine rating on torso twist speed. That way arm yaw would be more useful and torso twist more of a predictive move than a snap judgement.
#11
Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:40 PM
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:
The fact that it now requires skill to shine is precisely why it does not need a buff. Let me elaborate.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are purposefully easy mode for new players. For example, the AC40 Jager will score kills even if you are new, simply because of the alpha.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are OK at any level, and become better as your skill (e.g. aim) increases, but are not the best weapon hands down. MLs are OK for a noobie, and deadly in the hands of a skilled light pilot, but too hot to be useful in every situation.
- Some weapons/mechs/builds are utter shit until/unless you really are good at tactics and piloting. Gauss charging is just plain hard for a new player -- pulling, timing with other weapons, while on the move, etc. PPCs with their range limitations high heat, and inability to re-focus a shot while it happens can also make heads scratch. JJ shake will not let a noobie jump-snipe easily. JJ nerfs will not let simple 1 JJ builds jump-snipe anymore -- you need to sacrifice something to get enough lift (guess what, mech building is also a skill component).
I have played and currently play with MANY good streamers...
Just because they can still jump snipe in the mech does not mean it is not broken. I can jump snipe to the tune of 800+ damage per match in one...
The issue is, the Victor is supposed to be more agile than that...Not a mini atlas with jump jets to pogostick over hills on the horizon.
EDIT: After re-reading your post...I really think you must have no clue as to the skill level of player you are talking with...lol. You clearly do not play Victors...otherwise you would understand.
Edited by Gyrok, 21 April 2014 - 01:42 PM.
#12
Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:00 PM
I sorta understand why the Victors where changed, but I would have considered working on the Mech Tree Efficiencies first before tweaking any mechs.
#13
Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:42 PM
#14
Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:18 PM
Natalia Uchevnikov, on 21 April 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:
On the bright side it's an open poll, so any time a 'Mech they own gets hammered into the dirt with an uneven band-aid Nerf we can all come back, point to the no voters and say; See? You let them do this. You agreed to it.
Edited by Osric Lancaster, 21 April 2014 - 07:21 PM.
#16
Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM
Osric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:
No. The idea is to have a good new player rig which is not so great vs highly skilled players. The Jager can blow shit up quite well while being dead in the water against advanced players -- you blow up that side torso, and move on.
Osric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:
Because it was good at all skill levels, and it made all other assaults irrelevant. Now it is a high-skill tool.
Osric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:
Because it all matters together. Like I said, some mechs/weapons/builds. The fact that you are focused on one detail makes you ignore the big picture. If the Victor could not jump or go past a 300 engine rating, its low turn rate might be an issue. But it does jump, and it does go fast, making it highly mobile despite the nerf bat.
#17
Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:57 AM
And since they nerfed the VTR, I only have tried to use it once or twice in hundreds of matches played in total.
So, if the Victor stays as a PPC/AC jumpsniper type of mech, I may aswell sell all my VTRs.
Edit - Didn't place a vote, too many options for the "Yes" and only one for the "No".
Edited by flipover, 22 April 2014 - 02:59 AM.
#18
Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:05 AM
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
No. The idea is to have a good new player rig which is not so great vs highly skilled players. The Jager can blow shit up quite well while being dead in the water against advanced players -- you blow up that side torso, and move on.
Because it was good at all skill levels, and it made all other assaults irrelevant. Now it is a high-skill tool.
Because it all matters together. Like I said, some mechs/weapons/builds. The fact that you are focused on one detail makes you ignore the big picture. If the Victor could not jump or go past a 300 engine rating, its low turn rate might be an issue. But it does jump, and it does go fast, making it highly mobile despite the nerf bat.
The opinion of one guy who clearly does not play them sitting here in the forum is also irrelevant, you can take that as fact.
The only assault the victor made irrelevant was the Awesome, which was already made irrelevant long before it showed up anyway.
Highlanders are still the most prized assault chassis, and now that they turn better than Victors, they are actually the meta mech again. You still see die hard jump snipers on Victor chassis in game, but the majority of players who are competitive switched back to the highlander the day the changes came out after just a few drops.
True statement: It is easier to fend off light mechs in a highlander than it is a victor now. Victors are walking targets that jump snipe, if anything comes at them from a different angle they get screwed.
Should the other meta mechs get nerfed, by your same logic? The raven, the jenner, the jager, the firestarter, the atlas, the cataphract, the shadow hawk and the griffin? Let's just level it all off and make them all less mobile, since the victor was about as mobile as the orion, should we nerf the orion too? What about the 9M Awesome, it is now MORE mobile than the victor, should we nerf it too? How about the spider? Should it also get nerfed? The stalker is DOMINANT in competitive play as well...should we also nerf it?
Where does the line stop? By your logic we should all have one mech chassis set of attributes that weigh the same and look different...
#19
Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:00 PM
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
So what, another newbie trap? (Note how the Victor's debuff isn't expressed as such anywhere in the game?)
The Jagger is far from dead in the water against advanced players. It's high mounted guns make it a very good peek sniper, it's fast, it's got good speed and good torso twist. You don't even 'have' to put an XL in it. You 'have' to put an XL in a victor if you want it to be worth anything now.
I also don't see why having a 'Mech be 'useful at all levels of play' is inherently a bad thing anyway. If there was a weapon that worked well against new players but was pathetically easy to counter once you knew the trick to it, wouldn't that be a bad thing and make it hard to balance? *cough* LRMs *cough*
Besides all of which you still haven't expressed how turning something into more of a turret makes it 'more skill based' or 'prevents the meta' in any way.
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
The stalker, highlander and D-DC always had more of a presence than the Victor. The highlander was and is a better jump sniper, the victor was a better brawler. The dakka-Banshee has steadily gained some presence recently as a dakka destroyer. Battlemasters, non ECM Atlases and Awesomes aren't something I see much.
Modo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
If I can travel fast I can get where It's pointed fast, but you're talking about a mobility de-buff that requires players to drop in a large engine for turning speed. Why is that at all relevant to the pop-tarting meta where you stand in one spot, jump and fire in a limited arc? All they did was make the Victor bad at loading up with close range weapons (not part of the meta) and brawling against faster units. How does that make the Victor more 'skill based'?
If you took this de-buff to the extreme; if you gave the Victor the worst turning speed of any 'Mech out there it would STILL be capable of jump sniping. The problem was never really 'jump sniping' per say, it was instant, pinpoint convergence. If all weapons locked straight forward when a 'Mech is airborne then jump-sniping would be a non-issue.
A 40% reduction in the effect of engine rating on stock twist speeds and turning radius across all 'Mechs would have been a more sensible change and one that actually addressed the issue.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users