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Put The Victor Back!


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Poll: Put the Victor back (85 member(s) have cast votes)

Should it get buffed back up closer to where it was?

  1. Yes make it exactly as it was (22 votes [25.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.88%

  2. Yes a turning nerf was ok, but the torso/arm nerf was not (5 votes [5.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.88%

  3. Yes the arm nerf was ok, but the turning/torso nerf was not (12 votes [14.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.12%

  4. Yes the torso nerf was ok, but the arm/turning nerf was not (2 votes [2.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.35%

  5. No, I think it is fine. (40 votes [47.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

  6. Some other option (elaborate below please) (4 votes [4.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.71%

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#1 Gyrok

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

Just as it says

#2 Osric Lancaster

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

Victors arm were never great, their yaw existed just to mess with your aim. Now there's no justifying the Victor. I could have dealt with a torso twist speed penalty if they had given the Vic a better arm yaw and speed to compensate it, but the turning speed penalty made the Vic a bad joke before they decided they were going to nerf-hammer ballistics. (That's supposedly an ongoing process, by the way. Expect ballistics, and therefor the Victor, to get worse.) Arbitrarily beating the Victor into a useless lump because it's an 'Assault' is dumb. It's closer to the Orion in weight than an Atlas but now it handles like an Atlas with an equivalent engine. You have to dump all your tonnage into an engine to squeeze 'not crap' out of it. Jump jets? Frigging' garbage as far as I can tell. I can't justify the extra tonnage or critical use unless I really have nothing else to fit on a 'Mech. On an assault it's occasionally worth it to take one or two to help a 'Mech overcome the dread immobilizer pebbles. In a light you usually have tonnage left over and can use your ground speed momentum to slingshot you around. (Even that's dubious as I frequently catch lights that jump-scrape over a hill that I wouldn't have caught if they were just running. Jumping slows you down in a lot of cases.)

Let me put it another way -
I am seriously considering selling my Battlemaster-1G now that PGI has graciously given me a Thunderbolt-9S that does the same job better. This kind of mobility restriction kills 'Mechs, and there was no reason for it here.

So in lieu of a more accurate option, I'll vote the first.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 20 April 2014 - 05:37 PM.


#3 Flaming oblivion

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 06:20 PM

From what I read it was adjusted because it could essentially maneuverer as fast as the heavies if not faster and pack more punch not to mention could equip around the same armour or more depending on the heavy, So I voted no its fine as is.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 20 April 2014 - 06:27 PM.


#4 Osric Lancaster

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 06:59 PM

View PostFlaming oblivion, on 20 April 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

From what I read it was adjusted because it could essentially maneuverer as fast as the heavies if not faster and pack more punch not to mention could equip around the same armour or more depending on the heavy, So I voted no its fine as is.


You should understand that what you read was probably written by the same group that claims that the LB 10-X is a good crit-killer, or the "flamers are OP, nerf nao" crowd. Here's a few threads where people used actual logic and math to debunk that 'argument' -

http://mwomercs.com/...-nerfed-victor/
http://mwomercs.com/...-to-the-victor/

The victor was never as mobile for it's engine size as a medium. It was as mobile as a low end assault or upper end heavy, because that's what it is.

Why do you think the Vic needed this nerf?
Do you remember when the trial assault was a missile stalker?
Don't see that many trial victors out now, do you?

#5 Bartholomew bartholomew

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

I was ok with some less squiggly arms since i would miss somtimes in a tight turn battle. But nerfing the rest of the abilities was a joke. It is not an atlas. It needed that mobility for suvival. Oh well. Now have it set up like a baby highlander. And if needs be can poptart. Wasn't that the point of the current nerfs?

Yeah, never poptarted before. But now I am learning....

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 20 April 2014 - 07:24 PM.


#6 Modo44

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:33 AM

Buff the strongest competitive mech right back up into "**** all other assaults" territory. Solid idea. Next up, bring back the strong 3D. :rolleyes:

#7 HozeMonky

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:03 AM

A Victor at 80 tons is now less mobile than an Atlas at the same engine size. The supposed purpose of the nerf was to negate the ability of Victor poptarts to be effective brawlers, but has made most other builds in the chassis non-viable. PGI needed to come up with another way to fix poptarts. Tweak PPC damage spread, AC/5 and PPC syncing (which they've done somewhat with further ballistics nerfs). But at the end of the day they're actually encouraging more poptarting in these mechs because it makes it the only viable way to use them. I tried piloting my Victor brawler and frankly it sucks now. The AC/5, PPC, LL builds still work great... :-/ Put Victors back, and if you still need to fix poptarting tweak the weapons involved in poptarting not the chassis (as much as I hate to say that as I love me some AC/5 dakka dakka).

#8 Gyrok

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

Buff the strongest competitive mech right back up into "**** all other assaults" territory. Solid idea. Next up, bring back the strong 3D. :D



Strongest competitive mech? You must mean buff the weakest assault chassis in game currently...

To make a valid point. I saw more Awesome's over the weekend than Victors, in fact, I saw so many more awesomes than victors I had to look and see if they gave it away free or something.

Neg, the victor is so busted now that the worst assault mech in the game, is now better than the Victor.

#9 Modo44

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM

View PostGyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Strongest competitive mech? You must mean buff the weakest assault chassis in game currently...

Watch some good streamers, or ask people from the best teams in various leagues. No, really, I can wait. From personal experience, the mech is still extremely strong.

The fact that it now requires skill to shine is precisely why it does not need a buff. Let me elaborate.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are purposefully easy mode for new players. For example, the AC40 Jager will score kills even if you are new, simply because of the alpha.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are OK at any level, and become better as your skill (e.g. aim) increases, but are not the best weapon hands down. MLs are OK for a noobie, and deadly in the hands of a skilled light pilot, but too hot to be useful in every situation.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are utter shit until/unless you really are good at tactics and piloting. Gauss charging is just plain hard for a new player -- pulling, timing with other weapons, while on the move, etc. PPCs with their range limitations high heat, and inability to re-focus a shot while it happens can also make heads scratch. JJ shake will not let a noobie jump-snipe easily. JJ nerfs will not let simple 1 JJ builds jump-snipe anymore -- you need to sacrifice something to get enough lift (guess what, mech building is also a skill component).
You need all 3 groups to make the game interesting. New players get a relatively easy beginner setup. Advanced players shred in the meta. Everyone else -- the majority of all players -- gets to use pretty much whatever and do decently. Now, you may not agree which weapons/mechs/builds should be in which group, and that is fine. But calling a highly regarded competitive mech "weak" is just venting, not an argument for a buff.

Edited by Modo44, 21 April 2014 - 12:55 PM.


#10 Osric Lancaster

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

. . . calling a highly regarded competitive mech "weak" is just venting, not an argument for a buff.

From personal experience, the mech is still extremely strong.


Calling a 'Mech strong is no more of an argument than calling it weak. You can't dismiss one subjective opinion as 'venting' and then give a different subjective opinion like it's Truth. That's not how reason works.

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Spoiler

1. -
Jagger : 40 pinpoint alpha AC/40, some ghost het/chain fire + 4 ml (20 semi-focused duration) -> ~60 damage, high mounted weapons, fairly short range.
Victor : 20+10 'pinpoint' alpha 2xPPC+2xAC/5 with ballistic drop off at range + streaks spread damage -> ~45 damage, jumps
= Sooo. . . you want to nerf the Jaggermech?
2. - What's your argument here? That the Victor was 'low skill'? How does a -20% turning speed make it more skill based? Why shouldn't we do it for all 'Mechs?

3. - Okay, as far as I can tell you're now talking about the jump jet nerf which makes me think you didn't read the poll or thread at all. How the what?

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

The fact that it now requires skill to shine is precisely why it does not need a buff. Let me elaborate.


This is pretty subjective, but if I take this logic as gospel then wouldn't it require more skill if we made it's turning even worse? Why not have an across the board 80% turning speed nerf for all chassis? Then they'll be super skill based! (wait, why does this make them more skill based and not just frustratingly annoying again? )

Note - Personally, I would be more okay with a bit of a nerf (torso twist speed only) to all chassis, and ideally a decoupling or reduction of effect from engine rating on torso twist speed. That way arm yaw would be more useful and torso twist more of a predictive move than a snap judgement.

#11 Gyrok

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:40 PM

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Watch some good streamers, or ask people from the best teams in various leagues. No, really, I can wait. From personal experience, the mech is still extremely strong.

The fact that it now requires skill to shine is precisely why it does not need a buff. Let me elaborate.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are purposefully easy mode for new players. For example, the AC40 Jager will score kills even if you are new, simply because of the alpha.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are OK at any level, and become better as your skill (e.g. aim) increases, but are not the best weapon hands down. MLs are OK for a noobie, and deadly in the hands of a skilled light pilot, but too hot to be useful in every situation.
  • Some weapons/mechs/builds are utter shit until/unless you really are good at tactics and piloting. Gauss charging is just plain hard for a new player -- pulling, timing with other weapons, while on the move, etc. PPCs with their range limitations high heat, and inability to re-focus a shot while it happens can also make heads scratch. JJ shake will not let a noobie jump-snipe easily. JJ nerfs will not let simple 1 JJ builds jump-snipe anymore -- you need to sacrifice something to get enough lift (guess what, mech building is also a skill component).
You need all 3 groups to make the game interesting. New players get a relatively easy beginner setup. Advanced players shred in the meta. Everyone else -- the majority of all players -- gets to use pretty much whatever and do decently. Now, you may not agree which weapons/mechs/builds should be in which group, and that is fine. But calling a highly regarded competitive mech "weak" is just venting, not an argument for a buff.





I have played and currently play with MANY good streamers...

Just because they can still jump snipe in the mech does not mean it is not broken. I can jump snipe to the tune of 800+ damage per match in one...

The issue is, the Victor is supposed to be more agile than that...Not a mini atlas with jump jets to pogostick over hills on the horizon.

EDIT: After re-reading your post...I really think you must have no clue as to the skill level of player you are talking with...lol. You clearly do not play Victors...otherwise you would understand.

Edited by Gyrok, 21 April 2014 - 01:42 PM.


#12 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:00 PM

I figure that before addressing the changes to the Victors, the Mech Tree Efficiencies need to be removed/modified first. Then the devs could give them another pass to make adjusts as necessary.

I sorta understand why the Victors where changed, but I would have considered working on the Mech Tree Efficiencies first before tweaking any mechs.

#13 Fiaura The Tank Girl

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:42 PM

No no..no is put back...was a good idea to nerf...prevent Meta.

#14 Osric Lancaster

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:18 PM

View PostNatalia Uchevnikov, on 21 April 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

No no..no is put back...was a good idea to nerf...prevent Meta.

Spoiler


On the bright side it's an open poll, so any time a 'Mech they own gets hammered into the dirt with an uneven band-aid Nerf we can all come back, point to the no voters and say; See? You let them do this. You agreed to it.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 21 April 2014 - 07:21 PM.


#15 Gyrok

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:28 PM

View PostNatalia Uchevnikov, on 21 April 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

No no..no is put back...was a good idea to nerf...prevent Meta.


Evidently you do not play this mech...

#16 Modo44

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM

The opinion of one person is subjective. The opinions of multiple people routinely winning leagues are not subjective -- you can take that combined as fact. Just ask them which mechs they prefer.

View PostOsric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

= Sooo. . . you want to nerf the Jaggermech?

No. The idea is to have a good new player rig which is not so great vs highly skilled players. The Jager can blow shit up quite well while being dead in the water against advanced players -- you blow up that side torso, and move on.

View PostOsric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

2. - What's your argument here? That the Victor was 'low skill'? How does a -20% turning speed make it more skill based? Why shouldn't we do it for all 'Mechs?

Because it was good at all skill levels, and it made all other assaults irrelevant. Now it is a high-skill tool.

View PostOsric Lancaster, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

3. - Okay, as far as I can tell you're now talking about the jump jet nerf which makes me think you didn't read the poll or thread at all. How the what?

Because it all matters together. Like I said, some mechs/weapons/builds. The fact that you are focused on one detail makes you ignore the big picture. If the Victor could not jump or go past a 300 engine rating, its low turn rate might be an issue. But it does jump, and it does go fast, making it highly mobile despite the nerf bat.

#17 FlipOver

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:57 AM

Personally I dislike using meta-builds.
And since they nerfed the VTR, I only have tried to use it once or twice in hundreds of matches played in total.
So, if the Victor stays as a PPC/AC jumpsniper type of mech, I may aswell sell all my VTRs.

Edit - Didn't place a vote, too many options for the "Yes" and only one for the "No".

Edited by flipover, 22 April 2014 - 02:59 AM.


#18 Gyrok

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:05 AM

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

The opinion of one person is subjective. The opinions of multiple people routinely winning leagues are not subjective -- you can take that combined as fact. Just ask them which mechs they prefer.


No. The idea is to have a good new player rig which is not so great vs highly skilled players. The Jager can blow shit up quite well while being dead in the water against advanced players -- you blow up that side torso, and move on.


Because it was good at all skill levels, and it made all other assaults irrelevant. Now it is a high-skill tool.


Because it all matters together. Like I said, some mechs/weapons/builds. The fact that you are focused on one detail makes you ignore the big picture. If the Victor could not jump or go past a 300 engine rating, its low turn rate might be an issue. But it does jump, and it does go fast, making it highly mobile despite the nerf bat.


The opinion of one guy who clearly does not play them sitting here in the forum is also irrelevant, you can take that as fact.

The only assault the victor made irrelevant was the Awesome, which was already made irrelevant long before it showed up anyway.

Highlanders are still the most prized assault chassis, and now that they turn better than Victors, they are actually the meta mech again. You still see die hard jump snipers on Victor chassis in game, but the majority of players who are competitive switched back to the highlander the day the changes came out after just a few drops.

True statement: It is easier to fend off light mechs in a highlander than it is a victor now. Victors are walking targets that jump snipe, if anything comes at them from a different angle they get screwed.

Should the other meta mechs get nerfed, by your same logic? The raven, the jenner, the jager, the firestarter, the atlas, the cataphract, the shadow hawk and the griffin? Let's just level it all off and make them all less mobile, since the victor was about as mobile as the orion, should we nerf the orion too? What about the 9M Awesome, it is now MORE mobile than the victor, should we nerf it too? How about the spider? Should it also get nerfed? The stalker is DOMINANT in competitive play as well...should we also nerf it?

Where does the line stop? By your logic we should all have one mech chassis set of attributes that weigh the same and look different...

#19 Osric Lancaster

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:00 PM

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

No. The idea is to have a good new player rig which is not so great vs highly skilled players. The Jager can blow shit up quite well while being dead in the water against advanced players -- you blow up that side torso, and move on.


So what, another newbie trap? (Note how the Victor's debuff isn't expressed as such anywhere in the game?)
The Jagger is far from dead in the water against advanced players. It's high mounted guns make it a very good peek sniper, it's fast, it's got good speed and good torso twist. You don't even 'have' to put an XL in it. You 'have' to put an XL in a victor if you want it to be worth anything now.
I also don't see why having a 'Mech be 'useful at all levels of play' is inherently a bad thing anyway. If there was a weapon that worked well against new players but was pathetically easy to counter once you knew the trick to it, wouldn't that be a bad thing and make it hard to balance? *cough* LRMs *cough*

Besides all of which you still haven't expressed how turning something into more of a turret makes it 'more skill based' or 'prevents the meta' in any way.

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

it made all other assaults irrelevant.


The stalker, highlander and D-DC always had more of a presence than the Victor. The highlander was and is a better jump sniper, the victor was a better brawler. The dakka-Banshee has steadily gained some presence recently as a dakka destroyer. Battlemasters, non ECM Atlases and Awesomes aren't something I see much.

View PostModo44, on 21 April 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

Because it all matters together. Like I said, some mechs/weapons/builds. The fact that you are focused on one detail makes you ignore the big picture. If the Victor could not jump or go past a 300 engine rating, its low turn rate might be an issue. But it does jump, and it does go fast, making it highly mobile despite the nerf bat.


If I can travel fast I can get where It's pointed fast, but you're talking about a mobility de-buff that requires players to drop in a large engine for turning speed. Why is that at all relevant to the pop-tarting meta where you stand in one spot, jump and fire in a limited arc? All they did was make the Victor bad at loading up with close range weapons (not part of the meta) and brawling against faster units. How does that make the Victor more 'skill based'?

If you took this de-buff to the extreme; if you gave the Victor the worst turning speed of any 'Mech out there it would STILL be capable of jump sniping. The problem was never really 'jump sniping' per say, it was instant, pinpoint convergence. If all weapons locked straight forward when a 'Mech is airborne then jump-sniping would be a non-issue.

A 40% reduction in the effect of engine rating on stock twist speeds and turning radius across all 'Mechs would have been a more sensible change and one that actually addressed the issue.

#20 Modo44

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:07 PM

View PostOsric Lancaster, on 22 April 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

So what, another newbie trap?

Variety. Different things working in the lowest and highest brackets. No easy setup for everyone.





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