41 replies to this topic

[Ilithi Dragon]

One of the biggest aspects inherent to MWO gameplay, the single thing that PGI has done the most to counter, directly or indirectly, has been the high-damage, pinpoint alpha strike.

You all know what I'm talking about, most of you have probably railed against it at one point or another. Some of you remember the Old Days when you could stick 6 ERPPCs on a Stalker and deliver 60 points of precision damage to a single location at 800 meters.

Those days are gone; PGI has done a fair bit to nerf those builds, or just make them completely nonviable. Some of those attempts, like JJ screen shake, were misguided and have since been all but completely neutered. Some of them, like Ghost Heat, have been effective, but are just treating the symptoms, and not the underlying problem itself.

Because of this 'palliative treatment', however, the problem of the dominance of high-damage, pinpoint-alpha builds still remains, and the larger problem of precision damage has also made other builds, such as quad-AC Jagers and Cataphracts, excessively powerful.

The core problem is that, regardless of weapon placement on a mech, all of the mech's weapons converge on the same, precision point, allowing pilots to deliver full alpha-strikes worth of damage into a single mech component.


The solution to this problem is two-fold.

First, weapon convergence for all torso weapons needs to be removed. All torso weapons should fire straight forward, without any convergence, so that they always hit slightly off-set from the crosshairs.

Arm weapons may continue to have full convergence, but ONLY if the arms have full side-to-side pivot capability. Arms that do not have this capability may have some convergence, but only very slight.

This will go a very long way to reducing the dominance of pinpoint-alpha builds, because those builds will no longer be able to deliver their full alpha strike to the same location. Skilled pilots will be able to compensate for this by staggering their fire, creating a 'rolling broadside'-like effect, but this will take considerable skill to do reliably.

This will also reduce the dominance of certain 'cheese' builds, like the quad-AC Jagermech or the AC Cataphract, by splitting their weapon convergence. The Jagermech would have some slight weapon convergence, allowing for tighter groupings at long range, where accurate fire is more difficult, but at close-range, Jagers would have much more difficulty in hitting targets with their arm weapons, because they just wouldn't be able to converge their weapons. This would make Lights and smaller Mediums the bane of Jagermechs and similar battlemechs, because they be extremely difficult to fight with just ACs alone, and it would force Jagermechs to compromise their build to carry secondary torso weapons to fend off Lights, or completely rely on their teammates to protect them.


The second avenue to reduce the effectiveness of high-damage, pinpoint-alpha builds is to add the mech's velocity to its weapon velocity. Currently, whenever a pilot fires an AC or a PPC or a missile, that projectile travels in a straight line (or not so straight for missiles) toward its target, regardless of the originating mech's velocity. This means that, regardless of whether I'm standing still or moving, all of my weapons will hit in exactly the same spot (minus LBX and missile spread).

This should be changed so that a mech's velocity is added to its weapon velocity, like things work in real life, and as was done in previous MW titles. This would mean that, if a mech is moving at 70kph to the right, relative to its target when it fires its weapons, those weapons (minus lasers) will also move at 70kph to the right of the target, in addition to their current shot speed.

This will make long-range sniping and fire support a much more difficult operation. Not only will snipers have to account for their target's movement when aiming, they will have to account for their own movement. This means that snipers will either have to stop moving to have a better shot at their target, making them an easier target themselves, or they will suffer a natural reduction in accuracy. Skilled players will be able to compensate for that extra lead-time, but it will take skilled players to do so, and it will still make those shots harder than they currently are.

This will also have the added effect of making poptart sniping more difficult, because poptarts move in three dimensions, not two. This means that poptarts will have to compensate for their own vertical movement, as well as their horizontal movement, adding another element of difficulty that players will have to factor into their aiming. Highly-skilled players will be able to compensate for this, but it will take significant skill to do so, and it will still make jump shots harder than they currently are.

This will also allow for the removal of JJ reticule shake, as it will serve the same function, that of making firing while JJing less accurate, but accuracy will become a factor of player skill, not a random number (and no player likes to miss because their aim was on, but the miss was arbitrarily determined by a random number generator). Replacing JJ reticule shake with adding the mech's velocity to weapon velocity will also allow for the return of JJ brawlers, a build type that was affected by JJ screen/reticule shake FAR more than the poptart snipers it was intended to target, and has since become all but extinct since the implementation of JJ shake.


These two suggestions, in concert, will resolve the issue of high-damage, pinpoint-alpha builds and the underlying weapon convergence problem, while also adding skill and challenge to sniper and poptart build types, and allowing for a removal of JJ screen shake and a reduction or removal of Ghost Heat, directly reducing the effectiveness of the problem build types, while also increasing the variety of effective builds available to the players.

[Chemie]

how about PPC, Ac10, AC20 and gauss all do 50% pin-point and 50% splash damage?

[Eddrick]

As a result, Vicor and Heavy Metal Highlander would be the only Mechs that can have pinpoint damage, because the arms on both have a full range of movment and can equip AC on one arm and PPC on the other.

This would only make the Victor and Heavy Metal Highlander, even more dominate then they already are.

Edited by Eddrick, 20 April 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Far too realistic so PGI will never make it happen.

Instead, they'll give us ghost weight or ghost slots.

[Trauglodyte]

Pin point alpha is essentially fine. The problem is how quickly it happens and how easy it is to do over and over again. If I stop moving and aim, I should put as much damage into a location as I want because I took on all of the negative possibilities to gain a damage advantage. But, when people can run flank speed over rough terrain and use JJs and such while putting the same amount of damage into any location they want even when they're at 99% heat is what is wrong.

[101011]

Chemie, on 20 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

how about PPC, Ac10, AC20 and gauss all do 50% pin-point and 50% splash damage?

How about no? That does not even make sense. A solid truck will not do splash damage when it hits a car, quiaff? So why should a solid shell do splash damage?

[Ilithi Dragon]

Eddrick, on 20 April 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

As a result, Vicor and Heavy Metal Highlander would be the only Mechs that can have pinpoint damage, because the arms on both have a full range of movment and can equip AC on one arm and PPC on the other.

This would only make the Victor and Heavy Metal Highlander, even more dominate then they already are.

The Victor and Highlander are not the only mechs that have two full-range-motion arms. The Commando, Spider, Firestarter, Centurion, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Griffin, Kintaro, Shadowhawk, Wolverine, Dragon, Quickdraw, Thunderbolt, Cataphract, Orion, Awesome, Victor, Battlemaster, Highlander, Banshee, and Atlas all have arms that would have full convergence.

The Victor and Highlander would still be the assault poptart of choice, yes, but they are also the only two assaults that have JJs, so... nothing is going to prevent them from being the assault poptart of choice. They're the ONLY assault poptart choices.

Furthermore, both the HM and all Victors have energy in one arm and ballistics in the other. By adding mech velocity to weapon velocity, you screw up the synergy of all weapons that have different travel times. This means that if a poptart HM jumps up and fires two PPCs and an AC/10 at a target at the same time, unless the pilot fires at the exact peak of his/her jump, the weapons are going to hit in different locations.

There are very few mechs that have a ballistic slot in each arm, or an energy slot in each arm, to get the ideal convergence across both arms.

Adding mech velocity to weapon velocity affects the synergy of all weapons, and builds that have energy slots in one arm and ballistic in the other are not going to have ideal synergy between the two arms.

Trauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Pin point alpha is essentially fine. The problem is how quickly it happens and how easy it is to do over and over again. If I stop moving and aim, I should put as much damage into a location as I want because I took on all of the negative possibilities to gain a damage advantage. But, when people can run flank speed over rough terrain and use JJs and such while putting the same amount of damage into any location they want even when they're at 99% heat is what is wrong.

And adding mech velocity to weapon velocity will fix exactly that.

[hercules1981]

Make ppcs heat at 12 and get some data on that. In theory an extra 2 heat is a 20%. Increase thus making pop tarts fire around 80% of what they currently do in a match now. I think it's a starting point and an easy change to make.

[Trauglodyte]

Do we need mech speed transferred to weapons? Sure. But, the problem will still remain the fact that you can go from pointing your weapons at the sky, which has an infinite distance, and then put your cross hair on something 1m in front of you and all of your weapon fire will land miraculously RIGHT there in an instant. Movement doesn't impair your ability to hit. Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit. Everything is full on the player skill and that is a problem.

[Rando Slim]

I also think an addition to the OP idea would be to make it so arm weapon convergence isn't full in the sense that if im aiming at something all the way over to my right, my left arm isn't going to have an angle to hit the exact same spot my right arm weapons would. If firing arm weapons, basically the off-arm side should have its weapons hit somewhat next to the main arm-side. So firing all the way to my right, my left arm will hit a little to the left of where my right arm is pointing. Hope that made sense.

[Mister Blastman]

Ilithi Dragon, on 20 April 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

/snip

OP: WELL SAID!!!!!!!!
I've made these exact suggestions to the community several times in the past couple of years starting with July of 2012 in closed beta with the convergence ideas you have presented. I'm glad someone else gets it!

... if only the developers would.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Trauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Do we need mech speed transferred to weapons? Sure. But, the problem will still remain the fact that you can go from pointing your weapons at the sky, which has an infinite distance, and then put your cross hair on something 1m in front of you and all of your weapon fire will land miraculously RIGHT there in an instant. Movement doesn't impair your ability to hit. Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit. Everything is full on the player skill and that is a problem.

Actually, there is a convergence speed, so far as I am aware. The Elite skill unlock that increases convergence speed makes it almost unnoticeable, however.

Perhaps they need to reduce convergence speed?

Mister Blastman, on 20 April 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

OP: WELL SAID!!!!!!!!
I've made these exact suggestions to the community several times in the past couple of years starting with July of 2012 in closed beta with the convergence ideas you have presented. I'm glad someone else gets it!

... if only the developers would.

I've been saying most of it myself for well over a year.

Edited by Ilithi Dragon, 20 April 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[hercules1981]

Trauglodyte, on 20 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Do we need mech speed transferred to weapons? Sure. But, the problem will still remain the fact that you can go from pointing your weapons at the sky, which has an infinite distance, and then put your cross hair on something 1m in front of you and all of your weapon fire will land miraculously RIGHT there in an instant. Movement doesn't impair your ability to hit. Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit. Everything is full on the player skill and that is a problem.

Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit but it sure as hell will make u hit less often. Land 30 times with a 30 point alpha a match that's 900 damage. Now estimate about 24 shots landing because of a 20% heat increase to ppcs now your only looking at 720 damage still plenty but I'd rather see an opponent doing 700 ish instead of 900 ish damage.

[Ilithi Dragon]

hercules1981, on 20 April 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Heat doesn't impair your ability to hit but it sure as hell will make u hit less often. Land 30 times with a 30 point alpha a match that's 900 damage. Now estimate about 24 shots landing because of a 20% heat increase to ppcs now your only looking at 720 damage still plenty but I'd rather see an opponent doing 700 ish instead of 900 ish damage.

The problem isn't that people are doing too much damage. I very rarely see anyone doing 900 damage in a match. Typically, provided they didn't completely fail at life or get destroyed early or something, most people tend to do 200-600 damage per match. The heavy damage dealers tend to be in the 500-700 range, and on rare occasions I'll see someone hit 800-1000+.

Poptarts and snipers are not dealing more damage than anyone else, they're dealing their damage MORE PRECISELY than anyone else, and while that is inherently part of the role, the concentration of damage snipers, and other long-range builds are capable of is too great.

Breaking convergence, and adding mech velocity to weapon velocity, will fix that by addressing the underlying problem of precision damage convergence.

[Duncan Aravain]

No mention of graduated JJ heat. That a 80-95 ton mech can levitate with so little heat added over and over again just begs for abuse by all the high alpha jumpers in the game. Without adding some form of graduated JJ heat penalty to your plan, you have only a partial solution (but at least a reasonable solution to an ongoing issue). The experts will still be able to do their uncanny pinpoint damage, but at a slower pace. Sadly, PGI has seemed to often offer Band-Aid fixes when aspects of the game are exploited, rather than tear down and rebuild from the ground up certain parts of the game.

[CtrlAltWheee]

I'm ok with reimagining the weapons themselves. PPC as a brief damage over time lightning strike. Autocannons burst firing. Anything, really. I think the change would be fun.

Can't source it, but I have heard that convergence is a technical hurdle. I think it's also maybe a hurdle to new players in a game that's already daunting.

The speed of mech affecting projectiles sounds fun.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

Actually, there is a convergence speed, so far as I am aware. The Elite skill unlock that increases convergence speed makes it almost unnoticeable, however.

Perhaps they need to reduce convergence speed?

You'd be wrong about that, unfortunately. Sadly, this is something that a great many people don't know: Pin Point (tier 2 efficiency) is an XP sink because it doesn't work. Back in Closed Beta, PGI got stuck with a decision. Do they fix hit registry so that you don't have to lead your target with freaking lasers (thanks CryEngine3) or do they keep the intricate and decently design platform of convergence? PGI chose the former and that is a great thing because you need to be able to hit what you point your weapons at. The side effect of that, though, is that the community picked up on the power of instant damage around the time that the PPC got buffed (went from 10 heat and 900m/s to 8 heat and 2000m/s). A little after that, people combined the power of the PPC with the Gauss Rifle and now we're here saying how bad convergence is.

Projectile velocity needs to inherit the firing platform's speed. The convergence point also needs to be impacted by your heat level (ie, the higher your heat, the further or closer [could be random] your reticle point becomes thus spreading your weapon damage without an arbitrary cone of fire [terrible idea]). And finally, we need some semblance of heat penalties and visual hindrance to simulate the effect heat has on the "brain"of the mech - you! We can get around the convergence problem but it isn't going to be easy and won't be pretty. But, until it is slowed, mechs are still going to get slagged way too quickly.

[Mister Blastman]

CtrlAltWheee, on 20 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I'm ok with reimagining the weapons themselves. PPC as a brief damage over time lightning strike. Autocannons burst firing. Anything, really. I think the change would be fun.

Can't source it, but I have heard that convergence is a technical hurdle. I think it's also maybe a hurdle to new players in a game that's already daunting.

The speed of mech affecting projectiles sounds fun.

It is.

Watch:

http://www.twitch.tv...tman/b/49678449

[hercules1981]

Ilithi Dragon, on 20 April 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

The problem isn't that people are doing too much damage. I very rarely see anyone doing 900 damage in a match. Typically, provided they didn't completely fail at life or get destroyed early or something, most people tend to do 200-600 damage per match. The heavy damage dealers tend to be in the 500-700 range, and on rare occasions I'll see someone hit 800-1000+.

Poptarts and snipers are not dealing more damage than anyone else, they're dealing their damage MORE PRECISELY than anyone else, and while that is inherently part of the role, the concentration of damage snipers, and other long-range builds are capable of is too great.

Breaking convergence, and adding mech velocity to weapon velocity, will fix that by addressing the underlying problem of precision damage convergence.

U r correct with everything u said for the most part but we all know pgi is not gonna spend the time and money in doing this. It's been topic for a long time they ain't gonna do the change. I'm just saying if a weapon is hotter u can't fire as much.FACT. If u can't fire as much u can't put out as much damage.FACT. Now just because u can't do as much damage doesn't mean u can't kill easily in the jump snipe world. There will still be plenty of guys focusing targets down but having a team closing the distance while say 8 30 point alphas come at my team is far better then seeing 12 11 or even 9 30 point alphas come at my team. Give close range mechs a better change of closing the distance to make ppcs usless u have a far more balanced game then we have now. And it only takes one simple change of a heat value to do this

Edited by hercules1981, 20 April 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

U r correct with everything u said for the most part but we all know pgi is not gonna spend the time and money in doing this

This. PGI isnt gonna do it. Period.

The best we can hope for is a bandaid which makes ACs fire in bursts and PPCs do arcing damage. That way they spread out their damage across multiple locations. Combine that with an internal structure increase and the game should be sufficiently bandaided.