Archon, on 20 April 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:
Pinpoint alpha is fine and essential in order to keep LRMs in check. PPCs are already too hot as it is. IMO the only changes the game needs on the balance end at the moment is a buff to brawling weapons, which we're getting next patch with the additional SRM fixes. I do think the AC20 could stand to be rebuffed to where it was too though.
Jettrik Ryflix, on 20 April 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:
There are a couple problems I can see with "fixing" convergence:
1. Direct-fire weapons will become very unreliable. LRMS will become the weapon of choice, as the enemy will have trouble taking down your center torso if he can only hit it with one AC5 at a time. So, it'll be another LRMaggedon.
Pinpoint alpha is not necessary to keep LRMs in check. As others noted, LRMs are already very strongly countered by ECM, and weakly countered by AMS. The two in combination, along with half-decent usage of cover, make LRMs a largely impotent weapon without significant team support.
Furthermore, this will not make direct-fire weapons unreliable, it will just make them more challenging to use exceptionally well. This does not affect the inherent accuracy of the weapons, it just increases the skill necessary to make good, concentrated shots at range, while also having the affect of giving certain 'cheese' builds, like the quad-AC Jagermech, a notable drawback at close-range and against smaller targets, helping to nerf those over-powered builds by creating trade-offs that players will have to compensate for.
This will also serve to give each mech an additional, unique 'flavor.' For example, the Banshee-3E, the variant popular as 'high meta,' has 4 ballistic slots in its left torso. By removing convergence for torso weapons, the positioning and orientation of those weapons becomes much more significant. The BNC-3E's ballistics would always fire a little to the left, with a vertical spread. The Jager's ACs will converge slightly at range, but will miss wide to both sides of any smaller mech at close-range.
Direct-fire weapons will not become non-viable, they just won't be overpowered at range anymore, making shorter-range brawler builds more viable, and certain cheese builds will become less cheesey.
Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:
The biggest issue I see here, is the fact that WWII fighter planes could set convergence to hit a specific pinpoint spot *at a certain distance only*
If PGI did that, it would make hitting at range that much more difficult. Knowing your convergence is set to 400m or whatever. I suppose you could even implement a slider allowing pilots to set their range for convergence.
smokefield, on 20 April 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:
actually this is not necessary realistic - the torso weapons can be mounted in a way to converge at a desired point - and maybe this is the best solution - give us the players the option to choose the convergence point of torso mounted weapons when we customize the mech. It will add more immersion and it will be a little more skill involved to make a mech work well.
I actually like this idea, having an option to set a convergence point for fixed weapons. This could be applied to torso weapons and horizontally fixed arm weapons.
Gyrok, on 20 April 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:
EDIT: The recent JJ nerf was unfounded and nerfed the wrong aspect of JJs, mobility with them should be great, the issue is you should not be able to effectively target while doing so...though that got hexed quickly by the crocodile tear QQ from the forums.
I strongly disagree, because this affects every non-poptart JJ build type far more than it affects poptart builds. Poptarts typically fire at the peak of their jump, adding any kind of screen shake just shortens the window in which we have to fire, while making any kind of JJ-brawler build almost non-viable, because while a poptart can just extend their firing window by just extending their jump time by the necessary amount, JJ-brawlers HAVE to be able to fire while jumping to be truly effective. Creating JJ inaccuracy by a forced random firing cone kills JJ-brawler builds, while only mildly inconveniencing poptarts.
I'm a PPC poptart *****, I've been one for years. It's the playstyle that I love the most (though I play and enjoy almost all the other build types, when I'm not hampered by internet troubles). The random fire cone only mildly inconveniences me. What will make poptarting harder for me will be adding my velocity to my weapon velocity, because now my vertical movement will significantly impact my aim, whether my JJs are active or not. Previous mechwarrior titles did this, and it made making accurate shots at 900 meters while moving and JJing a very difficult proposition. The top-skilled players will eventually be able to compensate, but it will take significant skill, lots of practice and experience, and those shots will always be more difficult, because the variation in how much the player has to lead the target at any given moment, for any given shot will significantly increase.
Jettrik Ryflix, on 20 April 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:
2. Developing and honing your sniping skills is very satisfying and fun. From what I can tell, the most frequent and competitive players prefer sniping to anything else. Removing pinpoint damage would destroy a lot of the current player base, which is bad for PGI, and ultimately, all MWO fans.
I personally enjoy the game immensely as it currently stands. Countering poptarts is difficult, but it can be a fun challenge. It depends on how you look at it.
I'm a PPC poptart *****, I love the poptart sniper playstyle, it is very enjoyable and satisfying when done well.
It is also WAAAAY too easy to do effectively. That is why all the top players tend to prefer poptart sniper builds, because they are THE ultimate meta - it is a very effective strategy, and it is fairly easy to master as things currently stand. ALL sniper builds are fairly easy to master, because aiming is too easy. It is too easy to make yourself a difficult target to hit while suffering no penalty to your own accuracy. THAT is why mech velocity needs to be added to weapon velocity, and snipers will continue to be inherently overpowered until that change is made.
smokefield, on 20 April 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:
this will affect snipers the most, and they have enough problems as it is now. the maps are not big enough for effective snipers
and even if we take that into consideration - we will have to account for a very small amount compared with the projectile speed...which will be neglijable.
2000m/s = 7200km/h
a decent speed in mwo is 70km/h - which means less than a 100 fraction. it will count but not as much as ppl think - especiialy for distances that are under 2km - meaning the bullet will reach the destination in under 1 sec.
Of course it will affect snipers the most, it is specifically targeted to affect snipers the most, because all sniper builds are inherently overpowered in the current meta, and that has been the constant state of the game since HSR was introduced and pilots could reliably hit targets at range.
The amount that snipers will have to lead the target for their own movement will be small, but still significant at range.
For example, lets do the math.
The ERPPC, the archetypical MW 'sniper' weapon, has an optimal range of 810 meters, and a travel speed of 1500 m/s.
Say we have a sniper moving at 70kph to the right of her target, exactly perpendicular. That 70kph translates into 19.44 m/s movement to the right. Our sniper lines up on her target and fires just inside her optimal range, at 800 meters. At 1500 m/s, it takes her ERPPC shot 0.53 second to reach her target. In that 0.53 second, the ERPPC bolt moves 800 meters towards the target, and 10.3 meters to the right of the target. That's about the full width of an Atlas, give or take. That is a LOT of lead our sniper has to give her target, just to compensate for her own horizontal movement. Now if her target, say it's an Atlas, happens to be moving at 50kph to our sniper's LEFT, our sniper has to lead her target to the left by another 7.36 meters. And if she's in the middle of a jump up or down, that's another few meters that she has to lead her target UP or DOWN.
Now, a skilled poptart CAN still make that shot. I was a Black Knight ERPPC poptart ***** back in MW4: Mercs, and I could reliably hit a target at 950 meters while JJing, and moving perpendicular to my target at 90kph, with my target going 40-50kph in the opposite direction. Mercs had its own balance problems, but the point is that I could reliably make those shots, but it took countless hours of practice before I could do it, and it wasn't an easy shot - hitting at that range was hard, and while I could do it reliably, my hit rate against the biggest mechs, the Diashi and Atlas, was nowhere near 100%. And I was the star sniper in the unit I was in at the time.
With the weapon, hardpoint, and heat mechanics of MWO, snipers will still be able to hit big mechs reliably at that range, but only the exceptional ones will be able to do it reliably while moving, let alone while moving and JJing, and it won't be an easy shot.
Furthermore, Lights and Mediums will become the bane of poptarts and snipers, as they should be, because they will be too small, fast, and agile to hit with any reliability at range, and it takes an exceptionally skilled poptart or sniper to deal with a Light or fast Medium at close range (and the Light or Medium doesn't have to kill or even significantly damage the poptart to remove it from the fight, just harassing the sniper, forcing her to move or turn and fire slow-charging, high-heat/low-ammo weapons at a fast, hard-to-hit target is enough to render them combat ineffective). And I'm not saying all of this as a wild guess, I'm saying this from personal experience, both in MWO and previous MW titles.
Khobai, on 20 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:
Also I agree PPCs are too hot. Which is why PPCs should do arcing damage and their heat should be lowered. Ghost heat should also be removed.
I want Ghost Heat removed, but I don't think PPCs are too hot. I think they are fine just as they are - they're cool enough that they work well as sniper weapons, but too hot to fire as often as you need to fire in a brawl, making them a niche weapon, as they should be.
Khobai, on 20 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:
Quite frankly it would be STUPID to play a game where your guns dont shoot where your reticle is pointed. Convergence is a necessary evil. Whats not necessary is weapons instantly delivering all of their damage to the same location at once. Hence AC burst fire and PPC arcing damage.
It's hardly stupid, the crosshairs are where your converged weapons will hit, and approximately where your non-converged weapons will hit. It is then up to the pilot to learn the feel of each mech and be conscious of where each weapon will land. This will add a learning curve for new players, yes, but it is not really much different than learning to play with arm lock off.
Removing convergence for torso and non-swivel arm weapons (or by giving them a pre-set convergence range adjusted in the Mechlab), and adding mech velocity to weapon velocity will drastically reduce the amount of damage that can be concentrated in a single location without a mix of luck and exceptional player skill. Burst-fire ACs could be fun to play with as variations of base weapon types, but I don't think they are the ideal method to resolve the underlying problem (nor do they resolve the underlying problem), and I do not like the idea of PPCs arcing damage.
Mercier, on 20 April 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:
for what little it's worth at this point, in TT BTech, walk was +1, run +2, jump +3 for the firing mech - pretty considerable penalties on a 2d6 ( 7 or higher vs 10 or higher, for example)
- yet, and it's been thus in Mw games and most shooter games - when you walk or run, you don't 'bounce'.
Go outside, and get running - try firing your hunting rifle on the run.
Mounted archers used to time their shots - it takes considerable skill -
but in most FPS based games, movement is as smooth as gliding over glass in the best suspensded luxury car ya can buy...
Heat... I'm not seeing it affect accuracy...
That aside, the mechs Do have turrets - the whole torso - and it has sub turrets - arms.
I could go for a little added 'bounce' and 'sway' to the reticle from a mech's movement, though logistically, I know this is a difficult thing to code effecitvely, for the same reason why PGI made the JJ inaccuracy a random number generator instead of basing it on where the reticule was bouncing around at - because the more you move the reticule, the more you tax HSR.
I think, from experience in previous MW titles, that simply adding mech velocity to weapon velocity will go most of the way to making firing while moving or JJing appropriately difficult. Couple that with non-convergence or limited-convergence or torso and non-swivel arm weapons, and the problem will be solved (because getting all of your weapons to land in the same spot if they don't have instant full convergence will be challenging enough standing still against a stationary target, let alone if all mechs are moving in three dimensions).
Edited by Ilithi Dragon, 21 April 2014 - 01:54 PM.