229 replies to this topic

[Fang01]

Ultimatum X, on 22 April 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

Very cool post.


I just wanted to comment, because you took me out in a match in Canyon network a few days ago and I was struggling to even get a bead on you.

Your team lost but you played excellently. Nice to meet you, hope to play with/against you again.

Much appreciated,

I'm usually on most week nights late. If you are on the house davion teamspeak, C4's channels are about halfway down and we're always happy to meet and drop with new folks, even if they're in other units. Hope to see you on the field!

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Exactly this. With the arm lock off making fine adjustments to your downrange targeting is specious at best plus creates a lag between your adjustment and the positioning of your torso, decreasing accuracy for combined firing of arm and torso based weapons. This reason alone is enough to indicate that NOT using the arm lock toggle is the greater fail.



Making the game harder to control is not the answer.

then LEARN how to control it. Take off the bloody training wheels.

I've spelled out in DETAIL the two reasons to remove it, multiple times.

1) Due to poor implementation, and poor tutorials, it actually hurts New Players more than it helps. Time and again people die because they don't even KNOW arm lock exists.

2) Because it making the Meta WORSE: PGI has long acknowledged that TtK is far too fast in this game. FLD poptart meta embodies the problem and the Armlock exacerbates that issue.


Your response? Well, I LIKE it better, cuz I can't aim too good without it.

Bravo reasoning.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 April 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

You just keep screaming "bad" over and over again. When I re-installed the client recently it was not even on by default and I know I had it set to on previously so the argument that it hurts nubs is again your opinion about how YOU want the control scheme for EVERYONE to be... because? You claim it "hurts the meta" and "hurts new players" and give no examples at all as to EXACTLY WHY this is the case.

Forcing everyone to use the exact same controls is thankfully not at all on the mind of the devs, quite the opposite.

And let's tack one more on: you want everyone's aim to be nerfed because you obviously can't use cover effectively or position yourself appropriately on a map.

How's that feel? How low does this thread go?

[Darth Futuza]

If all your weapons are in your torso, I usually do an arm lock. If the arms don't shoot anything, they ain't of no use.

[Lyoto Machida]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

You just keep screaming "bad" over and over again. When I re-installed the client recently it was not even on by default and I know I had it set to on previously so the argument that it hurts nubs is again your opinion about how YOU want the control scheme for EVERYONE to be... because? You claim it "hurts the meta" and "hurts new players" and give no examples at all as to EXACTLY WHY this is the case.

Forcing everyone to use the exact same controls is thankfully not at all on the mind of the devs, quite the opposite.

And let's tack one more on: you want everyone's aim to be nerfed because you obviously can't use cover effectively or position yourself appropriately on a map.

How's that feel? How low does this thread go?

Maybe if you read the first post, you'd know what he's talking about...

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Rant thread!

What The heck is up with the arms lock? I get n00bs and scrubs using it, but seriously, why else would you use it? Can't hold your arm and torsos together?

Just had an AWESOME match on Tourmaline. We were down a LOT. I manage to get 5 kills on my ct cored Orion, and trash their last match, a ShadowHawk before going down.

Our last mech? A BoarsHead with no armor breaches. Our guy retreats to the turrets, in full zoom the whole time, and the trashed Shad hunts him down. Our team is thinking...cool. we got this, hard fought win.

Except our Boars Head had his lasers in arms lock. Could barely track the other mech. And after an excruciating 2 minutes of fat guy circling the fox, dies, costing us the game. GG JoolNoret, you fought well, our fatty should have won, but your skill was better than his. (And hey you killed me too, though I was trashed by the time we met. Still well done, sir!)

Moral of the story.. Arms Lock is for bads, and if you use it you should feel bad. Against mobile opponents, you will lose, almost every time.

Rant over.

[Bishop Steiner]

Captain Stiffy, on 22 April 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

You just keep screaming "bad" over and over again. When I re-installed the client recently it was not even on by default and I know I had it set to on previously so the argument that it hurts nubs is again your opinion about how YOU want the control scheme for EVERYONE to be... because? You claim it "hurts the meta" and "hurts new players" and give no examples at all as to EXACTLY WHY this is the case.

Forcing everyone to use the exact same controls is thankfully not at all on the mind of the devs, quite the opposite.

And let's tack one more on: you want everyone's aim to be nerfed because you obviously can't use cover effectively or position yourself appropriately on a map.

How's that feel? How low does this thread go?

lol, you truly are totally clueless. Explains why I kill you so easily. Good to know.

Lyoto Machida, on 22 April 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Maybe if you read the first post, you'd know what he's talking about...

Yup... a lone orion running around down 6 mechs, certainly sounds like a guy who doesn't know how to use cover to kill 5 of them, eh? The problem is not him not knowing what I'm talking about. It's pretty obvious he doesn't know what HE is talking about.

[Aresye]

Alrighty. After playing a decent amount of drops tonight first with arm-lock off, and then arm-lock on, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. Damage was consistent for pretty much every game. I originally figured my damage output would be a 1/3rd - half of my normal output due to adjusting to the arm-lock being off. Average damage per game was about 500-800, which is my normal output for games with arm-lock on as well.

2. The differences are actually very minor. With all mech efficiencies mastered across all my mechs, the conversion speed between arms and torso is so fast you don't really even notice it happening. On second thought I probably should have dropped in a trial mech as well to get a feel for it unmastered, but for those running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock off vs on has very minimal impact on weapon convergence when it comes to snap shots.

3. Poptarting (like the above) doesn't seem to be affected in any way. Provided a mech is fully mastered on it's efficiencies, poptarting is just as effective with arm-lock off as it is on.

4. Having arm-lock off gives a mech more precision when placing arty/airstrikes.



Overall conclusion:
When running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock has a very minimal impact on targeting ability. Ironically, the time a player actually needs to devote more skill to compensate for the 2 crosshairs independently is when running mechs that don't have its efficiencies locked. Considering the meta is relatively common amongst the competitive crowd, the overall likelihood that arm-lock has any impact is slim, as most competitive players are already running fully unlocked mechs.

[Darth Futuza]

Aresye, on 22 April 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Alrighty. After playing a decent amount of drops tonight first with arm-lock off, and then arm-lock on, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. Damage was consistent for pretty much every game. I originally figured my damage output would be a 1/3rd - half of my normal output due to adjusting to the arm-lock being off. Average damage per game was about 500-800, which is my normal output for games with arm-lock on as well.

2. The differences are actually very minor. With all mech efficiencies mastered across all my mechs, the conversion speed between arms and torso is so fast you don't really even notice it happening. On second thought I probably should have dropped in a trial mech as well to get a feel for it unmastered, but for those running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock off vs on has very minimal impact on weapon convergence when it comes to snap shots.

3. Poptarting (like the above) doesn't seem to be affected in any way. Provided a mech is fully mastered on it's efficiencies, poptarting is just as effective with arm-lock off as it is on.

4. Having arm-lock off gives a mech more precision when placing arty/airstrikes.



Overall conclusion:
When running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock has a very minimal impact on targeting ability. Ironically, the time a player actually needs to devote more skill to compensate for the 2 crosshairs independently is when running mechs that don't have its efficiencies locked. Considering the meta is relatively common amongst the competitive crowd, the overall likelihood that arm-lock has any impact is slim, as most competitive players are already running fully unlocked mechs.

Which mechs did you use in your testing though? Some mechs are severely restricted in your ability to aim and hold advantageous positions with arm-lock on.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 22 April 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Alrighty. After playing a decent amount of drops tonight first with arm-lock off, and then arm-lock on, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. Damage was consistent for pretty much every game. I originally figured my damage output would be a 1/3rd - half of my normal output due to adjusting to the arm-lock being off. Average damage per game was about 500-800, which is my normal output for games with arm-lock on as well.

2. The differences are actually very minor. With all mech efficiencies mastered across all my mechs, the conversion speed between arms and torso is so fast you don't really even notice it happening. On second thought I probably should have dropped in a trial mech as well to get a feel for it unmastered, but for those running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock off vs on has very minimal impact on weapon convergence when it comes to snap shots.

3. Poptarting (like the above) doesn't seem to be affected in any way. Provided a mech is fully mastered on it's efficiencies, poptarting is just as effective with arm-lock off as it is on.

4. Having arm-lock off gives a mech more precision when placing arty/airstrikes.



Overall conclusion:
When running mechs fully mastered, arm-lock has a very minimal impact on targeting ability. Ironically, the time a player actually needs to devote more skill to compensate for the 2 crosshairs independently is when running mechs that don't have its efficiencies locked. Considering the meta is relatively common amongst the competitive crowd, the overall likelihood that arm-lock has any impact is slim, as most competitive players are already running fully unlocked mechs.

like to see it in the other categories, and larger sample size, but good stuff. Of course, the downside to you doing it? You actually are a skilled player. You shouldn't need it anyhow (and now you should feel bad for using it, lol! ) I have a feeling the middle of the pack warriors will see their aim hurt significantly. The best always adapt after all. I'm not even in your Elo bracket, but never needed it. Shame the game has been dumbed down so much.

We need more data! Will have to work with you some in the future, maybe?

[Aresye]

Darth Futuza, on 22 April 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Which mechs did you use in your testing though? Some mechs are severely restricted in your ability to aim and hold advantageous positions with arm-lock on.

I used my Founders Catapult (torso weapons only, so no arm-lock only made me dizzier), an Orion ON1-V, a Shadowhawk SHD-2H, and a Highlander HGN-733C.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

like to see it in the other categories, and larger sample size, but good stuff. Of course, the downside to you doing it? You actually are a skilled player. You shouldn't need it anyhow (and now you should feel bad for using it, lol! ) I have a feeling the middle of the pack warriors will see their aim hurt significantly. The best always adapt after all. I'm not even in your Elo bracket, but never needed it. Shame the game has been dumbed down so much.

We need more data! Will have to work with you some in the future, maybe?

I'll try and actually record some live footage and upload it along with commentary this weekend when I don't have to wake up early for military duties

After tonight I can definitely agree that arm-lock hurts those in the middle the most, so you aren't wrong by your original statements on how it hurts newer players. I don't think there's much impact on the higher-Elo side aside from personal preference. Seems like it should be the other way around, eh?

I'll just chock myself up as an odd-ball that can play either or, but prefers the arm-lock being on mainly for the sake of not getting dizzy when snapping my torso around faster than I can turn

Thanks for the compliment btw. I look forward to researching this more in-depth in the near future.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Like I said... Arm lock is useful for mechs without low slung arms.

[Troutmonkey]

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Like I said... Arm lock is useful for mechs without low slung arms.

My Jenners and Stalker would disagree. Not being able to aim up / down is a HUGE hindrance, and on my Phracts and Shawks it means I can never hit lights with my lasers.

Sure, holding shift for temporary lock can be useful, but having it on all the time? No thanks.
Seen too many newbies die, it's not helping them at all.

[Fang01]

Aresye,

I think for that test to be effective you'd need to record an average damage per kill ratio. The argument against unlock has never been about a lack of damage, rather that it was a lack of focused damage.

Unfortunately this will be rather difficult to test with any scientific accuracy in the current mm. Ppm ought to give better options for gathering good data

[Bishop Steiner]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 23 April 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

Aresye,

I think for that test to be effective you'd need to record an average damage per kill ratio. The argument against unlock has never been about a lack of damage, rather that it was a lack of focused damage.

Unfortunately this will be rather difficult to test with any scientific accuracy in the current mm. Ppm ought to give better options for gathering good data

Be difficult to do, but would indeed provide better data. Sadly, our analytical tools at hand are rather limited. I like the idea though.

One other thing to do might be to run a "fresh" alt account, and play it entirely without arm lock. Then compare the weapon accuracy of the 2 accounts?

[DarthPeanut]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

admission is the first step to recovery!

Haha, yea true.

I honestly have become so use to it, it has become a bit of an afterthought to turn it off at this point.

[Fang01]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Be difficult to do, but would indeed provide better data. Sadly, our analytical tools at hand are rather limited. I like the idea though.

One other thing to do might be to run a "fresh" alt account, and play it entirely without arm lock. Then compare the weapon accuracy of the 2 accounts?

Would prob have to run a fresh alt account in PPM. Choose a control mech that possesses a decent mix between arm and body hardpoints (that is not already nerfed by pitch ex: FS9) and pit it in a series of 1v1s. Say ten against each class (Of course data accuracy improves with a larger data pool but we're already talking 80 fights here) Then compare. Real accuracy might require an expansion of the experiment to include a pool of test pilots ALL doing the same matches in the control mech.

*one could easily drive themselves insane thinking up new controls for good testing

Edited by Khajja nar Jatargk, 23 April 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 23 April 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Would prob have to run a fresh alt account in PPM. Choose a control mech that possesses a decent mix between arm and body hardpoints (that is not already nerfed by pitch ex: FS9) and pit it in a series of 1v1s. Say ten against each class (Of course data accuracy improves with a larger data pool but we're already talking 80 fights here) Then compare. Real accuracy might require an expansion of the experiment to include a pool of test pilots ALL doing the same matches in the control mech.

*one could easily drive themselves insane thinking up new controls for good testing

yeah, though I think running (egads more work) 2 separate accounts, one with arm lock, one without, and using the Poptart of choice, a a HGN or CTF-3D (would say DS but I ain't thinking we should have to spend IRL money, lol) and running with the same crew, using the same normal tactics, see how it goes. I think that the individual weapon accuracy would be the best reflection of efficacy, over damage, don't you?

[3rdworld]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

yeah, though I think running (egads more work) 2 separate accounts, one with arm lock, one without, and using the Poptart of choice, a a HGN or CTF-3D (would say DS but I ain't thinking we should have to spend IRL money, lol) and running with the same crew, using the same normal tactics, see how it goes. I think that the individual weapon accuracy would be the best reflection of efficacy, over damage, don't you?

Well the point of removing lock, would be to reduce the pinpoint (I believe), so accuracy isn't really a good measure.

What we need to know is your efficiency, meaning less damage with more kills using lock (if the hypothesis is correct).

Unfortunately the only way we have to see our stats is using MWO website. Which I do not believe to be worth the network traffic used to pull the page.


As you can see, I have not played a single match with a gauss, but somehow have 16 hits for 19.875 damage per hit.

Edited by 3rdworld, 23 April 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[zazz0000]

Me - I play with arms nice and locked until I want them otherwise. Now with that out of the way:

You can just as easily say that unlocked arms is a crutch. I mean, you can get snapshots off faster because arms have infinite movement speed. You can twist your torso faster than a player with locked arm. You can look around AND put your sights on target at the same time.

Calling locked arms a crutch suggests that that mode gives you an advantage. Yet the vast majority of Pros seem to play with it off. Are they just gimping themselves to level the playing field? Cuz power gamers are known to do that, with their stock mechs and their refusal to use modules and consumables.

Is the "F" key a crutch? It allows you to center your legs out WITHOUT having to twist your torso to compensate for the turn. Using chain fire to prevent ghost heat instead of timing shots yourself? Maybe dropping in 4 groups with third party VoIP against PUG's?

The extremists here are just saying "my way is right, any other is wrong". When you say "I prefer this way" they say "it's cheating".

[Fang01]

No because an unlock induced spread may still hit other components than the one targeted and register as a hit. Add to that that I'm not sure how accuracy is calculated for hitscan weapons. It may be that one brief sweep counts as a 100% hit. A division of damage per kill would yield a far more accurate representation with the given that said mechwarrior never aimed for a leg or arm (controlled environment remember)

While I'm at it we'll add a new constraint that all target mechs will carry XLs and that in all cases (excepting the light) our subject will attempt to achieve a kill via ST in a brawling range engagement

Edited by Khajja nar Jatargk, 23 April 2014 - 09:45 AM.