401 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

the other teams had LRMs yet you rarely got killed by them, and despite that you conclude that "boating" 5, LRM5s is a problem because you got some kills and did moderate damage?

So you were in those 68 games I played while I was eliting my Kintaros, and you observed that ''the other teams had LRMs", and also that they were shooting them at me - not other players?

Protip #1: don't create obviously implausible hypothetical scenarios to try to justify your opinion.

Protip #2: using LRM10 + LRM15 would not yield the same outcome. The cycle time of 5xLRM5 is shorter than LRM10+LRM15, meaning fewer missiles in the air, and they would also refire out of sync, enabling enemy AMS to defeat more missiles per 25.

An average of 3 kills per match across 20 or more PUG games isn't ''some kills''. It means that, for every game where I dropped with a derp team who got wiped out 12-0, there was also a game where I scored 5 or 6 kills with that Mech. Nor is an average damage of 400 ''moderate'' in a Medium Mech. That average included games where I scored 150 (usually because I was left facing down most of the enemy team solo after just 5 minutes) and some games where I scored >700 when my team was rolling over the opposition.

Fact is, this Medium Mech outscored the vast majority of its peers, even while I wasn't trying that hard or enhancing its performance with Artemis and TAG. That says something about the effectiveness of its LRM-centric loadout.

If you believe MechWarrior battles should be won the way I did in my Easy Chair Kintaro, then no doubt you are happy with the current state of the LRMs. And you're entitled to that opinion.

In my opinion, these results were too easy to achieve, relative to the skill needed to make other Mech builds work effectively. In my opinion, LRMs are fine and balanced when part of a diverse loadout. However, when boated, they become a problem - the remote locking mechanic enables significant damage to be landed by distant combatants, at no risk to themselves.

Edited by Appogee, 23 April 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Appogee, on 23 April 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

So you were in those 68 games I played while I was eliting my Kintaros, and you observed that ''the other teams had LRMs", and also that they were shooting them at me - not other players?

no. but i was here during the last month when you said you were going to stop playing because everyone was using LRMs.

that added to the fact that LRMs are in nearly every match, I made an educated guess.

[Kilo 40]

Appogee, on 23 April 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Protip #1: don't create obviously implausible hypothetical scenarios to try to justify your opinion.

*facepalm*

Quote

Protip #2: using LRM10 + LRM15 would not yield the same outcome. The cycle time of 5xLRM5 is shorter than LRM10+LRM15, meaning fewer missiles in the air, and they would also refire out of sync, enabling enemy AMS to defeat more missiles per 25.

I've been using LRMs for over a year now as my primary weapon, and you simply don't know WTF you are talking about.

hell, many times you want those 25 LRMs in the air at the same time to defet AMS and give some of them a cahnce to brake through.

Quote

An average of 3 kills per match across 20 or more PUG games isn't ''some kills''. It means that, for every game where I dropped with a derp team who got wiped out 12-0, there was also a game where I scored 5 or 6 kills with that Mech. Nor is an average damage of 400 ''moderate'' in a Medium Mech. That average included games where I scored 150 (usually because I was left facing down most of the enemy team solo after just 5 minutes) and some games where I scored >700 when my team was rolling over the opposition.

and by "average" you mean what your confirmation bias told you.

Quote

Fact is, this Medium Mech outscored the vast majority of its peers, even while I wasn't trying that hard or enhancing its performance with Artemis and TAG. That says something about the effectiveness of its LRM-centric loadout.

yes. LRM LRM-centric loadouts are great when you have a team that lets you use them effectively....

just like all the other weapons...

Quote

If you believe MechWarrior battles should be won the way I did in my Easy Chair Kintaro, then no doubt you are happy with the current state of the LRMs. And you're entitled to that opinion.

which explains why the Easy Chair Kintaro is the current meta.

oh..wait...

Quote

In my opinion, these results were too easy to achieve, relative to the skill needed to make other Mech builds work effectively. In my opinion, LRMs are fine and balanced when part of a diverse loadout. However, when boated, they become a problem - the remote locking mechanic enables significant damage to be landed by distant combatants, at no risk to themselves.

and your opinion is demonstrably wrong, as I have pointed out. a catapult with 2 LRM 15s is just as effective as the A1 with 6 LRM 5s. I know this because I use both every day.

your "experiment" was nothing more than a way for you to back up the conclusion you already came to before you started.

[ColonelMetus]

so i just got my new computer last night, while i am trying to restore my old mwo settings i cant play as well as i used too, so to compensate i took out my lrm mechs. wow. doesnt matter what resolution or sensitivity i have my game set to, i can just stand back and farm kills and damage with volley after volley of LRM and not even take any damage in the process.

a weapon that requires so little skill should have more draw backs but sadly the borderline LRM bot players have no other choice to get kills.

now that Auto cannons are nerfed i think its time to rebalance LRM abit, maybe slow the missile speed down to 145. and buff the effectiveness of AMS or make AMS module actually worth the 3 million

[Kjudoon]

There is a reason why "Protip #2" is incorrect.

1. LRM5s have the tightest grouping pattern and have a tendency to hit center torso full force rather than spreading like 10s and 15s. This means while you will probably get more damage with the 10/15 combo, it will be 'useless' damage of a highly inefficient weapon in comparison. The worst spread right now is the 20 and the 10. The best is the 5.

2. LRM5s have the fastest fire rate. This gives it better function because it can fire more rounds.

3. AMS operates by picking out x amount of missiles per group that enter their range. On the current ratio they are set up at, AMS can take out 4 LRMs per salvo. that means that if you chain fire your LRM5s only 1 missile per launcher gets through. That's craptastic. If you have only 5 tubes and are using an LRM15, that's the option presented to remove 4 LRMs three times, tripling the effectivness of the AMS. Of course, if you are able to push 25 missiles through in one salvo regardless of the number and styles of launchers, they will still only take off 4 LRMs.

Considering the above points, 5xLRM5s or 10/15LRMs have the same number of tubes but act much differently. If a target has no AMS, the 5x5 combo's rate of fire will be devestating as a chain. Fired together, the same 5x5 creates less heat, less weight and faster ROF than the 10/15 with greater fire concentration in the CT of a target creating faster kills and more productive damage. Also, LRM5s have zero ghost heat while linked 10/15 gets ghost heat after 2 volleys.

If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, here's the Pain Train, a 5/15/15/5 combo with Artemis, Tag and BAP's match last night. Thanks to the slowing back down of the missiles, these games have started happening in pugs. Unfortunately, in competative 12man, this mech is all but worthless. Most kills were between 600-900m and were able to get re-lock thanks to the slowing down of the LRMs back to 160m/s. If they had gone faster, I'd never have gotten them for I would have had to get closer to my targets allowing them a better chance to engage me. Yes they would have less time to dodge, but It would be harder for me to get them if I lost lock.

http://seraphimregim...846#pid=2628035

[Mavairo]

ColonelMetus, on 24 April 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Derp derp derp I stand out in the rain derp derp derp, I don't understand why I keep dying derp derp derp

[Joseph Mallan]

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

your "experiment" was nothing more than a way for you to back up the conclusion you already came to before you started.

6 LRM5s have a faster Cyclic rate than 2 LRM 15 so 6 will throw more ordinance faster that the 2. There is a volume bonus to the damage being thrown.

by Kjudoon!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 April 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Why has no one posted this?

[Durandal]

Appogee, on 23 April 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

An average of 3 kills per match across 20 or more PUG games isn't ''some kills''. It means that, for every game where I dropped with a derp team who got wiped out 12-0, there was also a game where I scored 5 or 6 kills with that Mech. Nor is an average damage of 400 ''moderate'' in a Medium Mech. That average included games where I scored 150 (usually because I was left facing down most of the enemy team solo after just 5 minutes) and some games where I scored >700 when my team was rolling over the opposition.

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

yes. LRM LRM-centric loadouts are great when you have a team that lets you use them effectively....

just like all the other weapons...

The second quote is worth restating, since it's perfectly logical. Let's take a look at another weapon: Medium Lasers. I run a Jenner F with the traditional 6 MLas build, XL300, mastered efficiencies. When I have a team that is doing what they are supposed to, I can run anywhere from 700-1000 damage in that little thing, often without taking serious damage along the way. When I have Team Idiot on my side, stupiding their way into the other team and generally living up to their team name, that same 700-1000 damage loadout can score 0-250 damage on a bad round. The end of the first quote says it perfectly: you can do a much higher amount of damage when your team is mopping up the opposition. In other words, when they are keeping your locks for you, and getting you the opportunity to dole out punishment.

This is exactly what LRMs are supposed to be doing.

If you were boating LRM5's, and hitting 700+ damage every single round without fail, regardless of how good/bad your team was doing, then THAT would be a greater example of a problem...but that's not happening. You mention you average out closer to 400 damage which is not a bad number...basically, your average is a perfect Improved Artillery Strike hitting all 10 shots. I would bet that a lot of decent players have similar average damage levels with their loadouts...I know my CDA-3M, JR7-F, and CDA-X5 all would be close to that average as well. I know some nasty Assault/Heavy players who will likely easily say the same about their mechs of choice. The point being that your overall results do not show a trend of being overpowered, it shows an occasional trend of going up against poor players, having a stellar team, or both.

When you perform this test and get 700+ damage with every single round, win or lose, then I will sit up and listen a lot closer to your argument...but until then, your own results show the expected conclusion: that your ability and potential with these weapons is directly related to the ability of your team to help you capitalize on them (and/or the enemy team to avoid them). Which is exactly how it should be.

Edit: And, I should note, in the mechs I noted where I have similar averages, I also hover around/near the 3:1 KDR ratio...which simply means you got the KB, not that you did most of the work. Getting 3 or more kills in a match where your team rolls the enemy is, again, not unusual, nor does it signal a severe imbalance of a specific weapon type. It signals an imbalance in the skill level of the combatants on each side.

Edit edit: Also, I'd be interested to see what your LRM damage is in terms of what is listed on the stats page...specifically, how many LRMs hit vs. how many you fired, and what the total listed damage on the page is. For instance, to stick with MLas from earlier in my example, across 163 matches since the reset I've fired 16,569 lasers for 15,210 hits (91% accuracy), for 49,001 damage. This equates to roughly 3.22 damage per average laser shot, out a potential 5 damage per laser. Calculating damage vs the total shots (including misses), that brings the average damage on those weapons to 2.97 per laser shot on use. Looking at numbers like those for your LRMs and calculating damage averages results in better information on the whole...but we're not here for logic, are we?
MEDIUM LASER Matches: 163 Shots fired: 16,569 Shots hit: 15,210 Accuracy: 91.80% Time used: 17:47:59 Damage: 49,001

Edited by durandal, 24 April 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Barantor]

durandal, on 24 April 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

When you perform this test and get 700+ damage with every single round, win or lose, then I will sit up and listen a lot closer to your argument...but until then, your own results show the expected conclusion: that your ability and potential with these weapons is directly related to the ability of your team to help you capitalize on them (and/or the enemy team to avoid them). Which is exactly how it should be.

/thread

I've been playing my Catapult since the first phase of closed beta. Trust me when I say that this is not the lrmaggeddon nor anything close to how it was during it.

LRMs are in a good place, use cover when you know they are around and if you have the space then put on ams instead of a few extra tons of AC ammo and you won't feel it as much.

[Appogee]

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

no. but i was here during the last month when you said you were going to stop playing because everyone was using LRMs.

I never said any such a thing.

Making up lies to try to undermine someone's credibility is puerile. Grow up.

Edited by Appogee, 24 April 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Appogee]

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

and by "average" you mean what your confirmation bias told you.

No, by ''average'' I meant the mathematical division of total damage divided by total matches.

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

and your opinion is demonstrably wrong, as I have pointed out. a catapult with 2 LRM 15s is just as effective as the A1 with 6 LRM 5s. I know this because I use both every day.

No, you only believe this, because your confirmation bias makes you want to believe it.

By all means share specific data, like I did. Otherwise, you are just offering a biased opinion, based on demonstrably factually incorrect opinions.

If/when you ever do a test, you will find that the speed of firing of LRM5s, plus their tendency to cluster more, plus the additional ammo you can carry through weight savings, will yield better results.

It's ironic that I have to tell you this, given you ''have been using LRMs for a year" and are so quick to abuse people who share the facts with you.

Kilo 40, on 23 April 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

your "experiment" was nothing more than a way for you to back up the conclusion you already came to before you started.

I shared some very specific data on a specific test I did. You, on the other hand, offered insults and opinions and factually incorrect statements about alternative loadouts. And then you accuse me of "backing up a pre-made conclusion"...?

Oh, the irony.

Edited by Appogee, 24 April 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Appogee]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

1. LRM5s have the tightest grouping pattern and have a tendency to hit center torso full force rather than spreading like 10s and 15s. This means while you will probably get more damage with the 10/15 combo, it will be 'useless' damage of a highly inefficient weapon in comparison. The worst spread right now is the 20 and the 10. The best is the 5.

2. LRM5s have the fastest fire rate. This gives it better function because it can fire more rounds.

3. Considering the above points, 5xLRM5s or 10/15LRMs have the same number of tubes but act much differently. If a target has no AMS, the 5x5 combo's rate of fire will be devestating as a chain. Fired together, the same 5x5 creates less heat, less weight and faster ROF than the 10/15 with greater fire concentration in the CT of a target creating faster kills and more productive damage. Also, LRM5s have zero ghost heat while linked 10/15 gets ghost heat after 2 volleys.

Thank you Kjudoon. Maybe you will have more success in communicating the facts to ''the expert who has been using LRMs for a year" than I seem to be having.

Again, for the record: If anyone believes it's good for MechWarrior battles to be able to be won the way I have been doing in my Easy Chair Kintaro, then no doubt you are happy with the current state of the LRMs.

And you're entitled to that opinion. I have shared my experience and an opinion, which I too am entitled to.

Edited by Appogee, 24 April 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Also, LRM5s have zero ghost heat while linked 10/15 gets ghost heat after 2 volleys.

That's not how ghost heat works at all. For ghost heat to kick in - you need to fire 3 LRM10+ within 0.5 seconds. Unless you have 3 LRM launchers of at least 10 - that simply can't happen.

[Jonathan Paine]

Not to rain on Appogee's parade - 3 kdr over a significant number of matches is pretty good.

However, here is an alternate explanation:
- People who hang back and stay away from the fight can more easily pick off damaged mechs, and are less likely to get killed.
- People with long range weapons are at less risk than people with brawler builds.

Which is why the game is still dominated by the better ranged weapons, 2xPPC+Ballistics.

[Barantor]

Appogee, on 24 April 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Thank you Kjudoon. Maybe you will have more success in communicating the facts to ''the expert who has been using LRMs for a year" than I seem to be having.

Again, for the record: If anyone believes it's good for MechWarrior battles to be able to be won the way I have been doing in my Easy Chair Kintaro, then no doubt you are happy with the current state of the LRMs.

And you're entitled to that opinion. I have shared my experience and an opinion, which I too am entitled to.

You aren't winning with just LRMs though, you are adding to your teams success with fire support which is the purpose of LRM mechs anyway.

If you don't like the way they work, fine then don't use them, but they are hardly OP in their current configuration.

[Kjudoon]

Charons Little Helper, on 24 April 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

That's not how ghost heat works at all. For ghost heat to kick in - you need to fire 3 LRM10+ within 0.5 seconds. Unless you have 3 LRM launchers of at least 10 - that simply can't happen.

Actually, 10/15/20 launchers have been linked. Try it. Put any combo of 10/15/20 on a mech and see the ghost heat rise. Now add 1 LRM5 to it, and it will be thwarted. That is why I advocate the 5/15/15/5 to get 40lrms on a mech. Zero ghost heat.

And yes, I have personally tested this, and see it happen. It's why I smile when I see that LRM mech 'dueling' with me and he has 4xLRM10s. I know he's going to eat Ghost heat, and I'm going to tear him up.

Extra proof from Smurfys.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne.../#weapon_missle

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 April 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Kjudoon, on 24 April 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Actually, 10/15/20 launchers have been linked. Try it. Put any combo of 10/15/20 on a mech and see the ghost heat rise. Now add 1 LRM5 to it, and it will be thwarted. That is why I advocate the 5/15/15/5 to get 40lrms on a mech. Zero ghost heat.

I agree. But from your previous post - it sounded like you were saying that if your mech had only a single LRM 10 & a single LRM 15 you could have to deal with ghost heat after a couple of volleys. If you added another LRM 10, 15, or 20 you would deal with ghost heat.

My apologies if I misunderstood your statement.

[Kjudoon]

Jonathan Paine, on 24 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Not to rain on Appogee's parade - 3 kdr over a significant number of matches is pretty good.

However, here is an alternate explanation:
- People who hang back and stay away from the fight can more easily pick off damaged mechs, and are less likely to get killed.
- People with long range weapons are at less risk than people with brawler builds.

Which is why the game is still dominated by the better ranged weapons, 2xPPC+Ballistics.

Smart play is smart play. High risk gameplay does not always reap an associated high reward. It may be more fun for some, but that does not always create success.

I know that I give and take killsnakes all the time and that is my lot as an LRM mech. Some days I am the killsnake. Other days I allow others to get it. It averages out.

[Ngamok]

ColonelMetus, on 24 April 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

so i just got my new computer last night, while i am trying to restore my old mwo settings i cant play as well as i used too, so to compensate i took out my lrm mechs. wow. doesnt matter what resolution or sensitivity i have my game set to, i can just stand back and farm kills and damage with volley after volley of LRM and not even take any damage in the process.

a weapon that requires so little skill should have more draw backs but sadly the borderline LRM bot players have no other choice to get kills.

now that Auto cannons are nerfed i think its time to rebalance LRM abit, maybe slow the missile speed down to 145. and buff the effectiveness of AMS or make AMS module actually worth the 3 million

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2970948

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3059336

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3066756

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3075801

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3139510
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3147406

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3174646

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3204364

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3242207

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3242633

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3244785

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3257296

Look, I will agree with you on buffing AMS ammo by 50% (to 1500 rounds) because why not, it can't hurt. But from all your previous posts in your old thread you started :

http://mwomercs.com/...g-the-new-fotm/

You clearly have an agenda to nerf LRMs. You don't want people to be able to take more than 2 launchers because you yourself said you did over 1000 damage with an ALRM20 in a banshee and take your Stalker out and make 280k C-Bills a match. BUT, here in your own post, you trash on people who take them:

a weapon that requires so little skill should have more draw backs but sadly the borderline LRM bot players have no other choice to get kills.

You know Egomane deleted all my posts here because I was trolling you because you keep posting the same nonsense about players being trash for taking so many LRMs and that you can magically get 800+ damage in your Griffin, 1000+ damage in your Banshee, 280k C-Bills in your Stalker.

If you want to start a discussion about buffing AMS, fine, like I said I am all for it. But please stop coming in here and posting this stuff because all you do is demean the players that take them and it does no help for newer players trying to learn this game when all you do is preach how well you do in yours (which I am sure is an exaggeration) and get them to follow the same road.

We also gave you so many tips in the your old thread that you haven't even tried to follow. So keep on your agenda to get LRMs nerfed but stop wasting space here and instead talk about your points you made before:

More AMS ammo
Let MGs and Lasers shoot down LRMs
Get more ECM capable mechs into the game.