15 replies to this topic

[-Halcyon-]

Is there a benefit of taking an LRM15 over an LRM20 for the sake of tighter missile spread and centralized damage on the target?

I haven't read anywhere that an LRM20 hits the target over a wider surface area vs smaller LRM variants.
For example, would it be better to engage a light with LRM5's vs LRM20's?
Can anyone confirm that?

Also, do the bigger LRM variants give more cockpit shake to the target vs smaller ones?

[p4r4g0n]

You can test this in the Testing Grounds using different sized launchers and observing the target & paper doll. My observations:-

• In the absence of AMS, most if not all LRM5 missiles hit CT.
  
• Although a LRM15 / LRM20 missiles are launched in smaller groups of 5-6 due to missile tube restrictions, the spread remains similar to what it would have been if launched in a single salvo.

Can't help with the cockpit shake. Kind of hard to test and observations in-match are unreliable since you don't really know the size of the launcher.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 22 April 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Koniving]

Spread depends on a number of factors, including "tube count" and how many launchers are fired at once.
For example 2 LRM-10s fired at once will have a wider spread than an LRM-20. The same is true of 2 LRM-15s versus 1 LRM-20.

2 LRM-20s however have incredible (bad) spread if fired at the same time. Great against enemy light mechs (no way in heck you can possibly miss!), bad against anything you want to promptly kill.

Interesting is while 2 LRM-15s have some spread, an LRM-20 and 2 LRM-5s fired at the same time have "some spread" too. But an LRM-20 followed immediately by 2 LRM-5s fired at the same time have very little spread, the same is true of an LRM-15 followed by an LRM-15 though its spread is still greater (than the 2 LRM-5s).

For a comparison, here is the receiving end of 2 LRM-20s (fired one at a time at first [the turn-corner shot] and later at the same time [that huge blotting out the sun wave of missiles]) and 6 LRM-5s (stream fired).

Minor language warning, I was a bit ticked off at the missile spam.

A great mech to 'experiment' with is the Orion V or VA. Load the mech with larger launchers than available tubes and watch the huge difference between 'salvos' and their spread.

For interesting and related viewing... The ROFL series.

Spoiler

ROFLpult, original famous video.


ROFLpult, close quarters 'brawling'. (note: The roflpult has LESS armor than a stock Locust.)


ROFLpult, how to build and triumphant match.


ROFLwalker; the LRM stalkers.


ROFLwalker; Orion escorting an LRM-100 Stalker and spotting. Start at 6 minutes for relevant match.

Edited by Koniving, 22 April 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[Koniving]

Halcyon201, on 22 April 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

1) For example, would it be better to engage a light with LRM5's vs LRM20's?
2) Also, do the bigger LRM variants give more cockpit shake to the target vs smaller ones?

1) In the "ROFL" videos in the spoiler, look at "ROFLWalkers" the LRM-75 and LRM-100 Stalkers.
The LRM-100 stalker is using Artemis, the LRM-75 stalker is not.

The 75 stalker can barely hit them (light mechs that is). The 100 stalker slaughters them with incredible accuracy. Sequential tests have proven that the truly best anti-light missiles are any missiles with the "Artemis" upgrade. This is due to Artemis missiles updating their trajectory (i.e. turning) more often to correct their course. Otherwise you have to hope that "some missiles" hit instead of all with larger non-Artemis launchers.

2) All missiles result in the same amount of screen shake, but the shake is per missile. If you want maximum rattle effect simultaneous hits are not the way to go. Instead rock many back to back hits. For this smaller launchers are probably dozens of times better at this task.

Edited by Koniving, 22 April 2014 - 08:20 PM.

[-Halcyon-]

Thanks everyone for the info.

[Darth Futuza]

Koniving, on 22 April 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

For a comparison, here is the receiving end of 2 LRM-20s (fired one at a time at first [the turn-corner shot] and later at the same time [that huge blotting out the sun wave of missiles]) and 6 LRM-5s (stream fired)

Minor language warning, I was a bit ticked off at the missile spam.

Lol. I feel for you there, I hate it when they do stuff like that with their silly lrms. You really got caught between a long range missile and a long range missile.

[Anvil ZA]

I have a feeling I smell some controversy burning, but I may have just left the stove on, so here goes... My name is Anvil, and I use LRMs... I joined the game when the Stalker 3F(c) was just starting as a trial, but before a lot of the latest lrm nerfs/changes whatever you want to call them happened. My primary reason I started to go big on lrm was to get some of my own back, that what happened in Koniving's vid happened to me more times than I care to remember. However, in the process of trying to out-lurm the lurms, I actually did learn a lot of things.

1: Tube restrictions can actually be your best friend. You may end up with similar damage from your LRM20 compared to a single salvo, but the amount of time the enemy is getting seasick from screen shake is a lot more, meaning more time that they are basically combat ineffective as it's difficult to land hits on your teammates while you're shaking, and also allows more time for your nearby teammates to do all important aimed/pin-point damage.

2: Chain-fire can give you the same effect if you have a lot of smaller LRMs available, or even grouping them and firing them separately. Chain fire with tube restricted missiles can be a sight to behold. I drive a STK-3F(c) as my support mech, slightly modified but still with 4x LRM15 with Artemis. Chain fired I get about 8 salvos per chain, and by the time the last tube has fired, the first has cooled and you can rinse/repeat until you run out of ammo or things to shoot at.

3: Knowing what target to go for is what changes the game from LRM spam into useful tactics. A lone enemy that is in no way endangering your team is not the best target, even if it's the only target. I've seen a lot of lights run just into LRM range because they know that a good portion of the enemy team will waste their missiles in vain trying to get at them, meaning they have far less support available when the main battle arrives. Also, a mech that's almost dead and has 4 of your teamies shooting it is really a waste of missiles, rather look for the enemy backup that is inevitably on it's way.

4: Artemis is your friend. Always let Artemis ride along if you can.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, what p4r4g0n is saying is true from my observations as well, smaller LRM groups have less spread, but in my view, the best use of an lrm is not for maximum damage, but maximum support. So to answer your question, it really depends on what you want to use lrm for. In a boat or long-range support mech, tube-restricted/chain fired/lots of smaller lrm will probably make you more useful on the battlefield, but for a single missile hardpoint on a mech that has a different primary function (for example a brawler), you should probably go for a larger lrm, because in theory even with a higher spread, it should still do more damage, and as Koniving said, an LRM20 is hard to run from. I personally would still hop in my Stalker without hesitation even if they nerfed the lrm to zero damage, because they have so many other things going for them that any player with decent tactics can swing the battle with just one mech.

Disclaimer: As always though, I'll freely admit I'm not the most experienced or best player, so wait for a big gun to confirm or call bullcrap on what I said.
Happy hunting
Anvil

PS: Someone feel free to slap me if I'm speaking out of turn. I may not be a vet player, but I did essentially learn to play MWO from scratch in the LRM school of hard knocks (and screen shake).

[TercieI]

Halcyon201, on 22 April 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

Thanks everyone for the info.

Thank you for asking a great question. I learned a few good things in the answers.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Anvil ZA, on 23 April 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

PS: Someone feel free to slap me if I'm speaking out of turn. I may not be a vet player, but I did essentially learn to play MWO from scratch in the LRM school of hard knocks (and screen shake).

I dunno, that sounds about how I use them.
(I used a CN9-A with 3xLRM5 for a long time - group fire I had an LRM15, chain fire I had a lot of cored Stalkers)

Only disadvantage to smaller swarms of missiles is when the other side is using AMS.

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

aren't SRMS more ideal for a brawler? Maximum Damage up close?

[Koniving]

Even with SRMs, the maximum number of simultaneous explosions the game can handle at once is actually a number around "18." If you're creating more than 18 explosions at exactly the same time you are likely wasting your time. Any sequential 'booms' are set to go off in the next millisecond (last I heard, the servers run at 100 frames per second, so a frame every 0.01 seconds). That's enough time for your highly focused shot of 36 missiles on the backside of an Atlas...to have half of them affect his arm instead.

Besides, LRMs in Battletech lore and in MWO were used as brawling weapons too and LRMs work best at closer ranges. The difference was that Clans didn't put safeties into their missiles (and pointed them straight instead of upward at a ballistic launch angle).

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 23 April 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

(and pointed them straight instead of upward at a ballistic launch angle).

The angle on the Mad Dog would like to argue that point, but he would be the exception to the rule.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

The angle on the Mad Dog would like to argue that point, but he would be the exception to the rule.

Depends on the artist. The original art had a receding layer of launchers, but all the tubes still pointed forward.
Later art depicts them tubes themselves opening at the upward angle since the Mad Dog isn't actually depicted with the ability to 'tilt its torso' like many other Clan mechs can.

But I give you that one.

[Barkem Squirrel]

"Is there a benefit of taking an LRM15 over an LRM20 for the sake of tighter missile spread and centralized damage on the target?"

Depends on the number of tubes that the missile hard point has.

Where to start, maybe reload times.

LRM 20 4.75 seconds
LRM 15 4.25 seconds
LRM 10 3.75 seconds
LRM 5 3.25 seconds

Now we have to look at missile hard point sizes and the time between firing which I think is .5 seconds

1
2
4
5
6
10
15
20


there are different types of firing

1. Launchers matching the number of tubes or are below.
2. Chain fire with Launchers matching the number of tubes or are below that number.
3. Launcher fire more missiles than the number of tubes.
4. Chain fire with Launcher fire more missiles than the number of tubes.


Now we get the interesting mix of launcher size and number of hard point tubes. This has a large bearing on how the missiles hit, the number of times missiles hit over time and the time to at least get 3 volleys into the target mech.

Lets look at using a griffin with LRM 15, LRM 10, LRM 5 and LRM 5. with 35 missiles, but I could use an LRM 20 instead of the LRM 15. Then the LRM 5s are used to prevent ghost heat. I jam the fire button down and 35 missiles go. then 10 at 3.25 seconds (two LRM 5's), 3.75 seconds 10 more missiles and 4.25 seconds another 15 missiles. The third group will start 6.5 seconds later, with 10,(two LRM 5's), 7.5 seconds 10 LRMs, then at 9 seconds 15 are fired. This is no chain fire. and 105 missiles in 9 seconds.

Chain fire. 15 LRMs, .5 seconds, 10 LRMs, 1 seconds 5 LRMs 1.5 seconds 5 LRMs, second volley 4.25 seconds 15 lrms, 4.75 seconds 10 L:RMs, 5.25 seconds 5 LRMs, 5.75 seconds 5 LRMs, third volley 8.5 seconds 15 LRMs, 9 seconds 10 LRms, 9.5 seconds 5 LRMs, 10 seconds 5 LRMs. So 105 LRMs in 10 seconds.

Now with a stalker LRM 15 x2 and LRM 10 x2.

We will look at chain fire.
So fire 10 LRMs, .5 seconds 5 LRMs, 1 second 10 LRMs, 1.5 seconds 5 LRMs, 2 seconds 6 LRMs, 2.5 seconds 4 LRMs, 3 seconds 6 LRMs, 3.5 seconds 4 LRMs. end of first volley In .25 seconds the next volley is ready so 150 missiles in 11.25 seconds.

OR normal fire. 32 LRMs, .5 seconds later 18 LRMs. at 3.75 seconds 12 LRMs, 4.25 seconds 28 LRMs, 4.75 seconds 10 LRMs. thirds volley. 7.5 seconds 12 LRms, 8 seconds 8 LRMs, 8.5 seconds 20 LRMs, 9 seconds 10 LRMs. This is 150 missiles in 9 seconds.



Now what I have seen is 20 missiles will spread out over the mech, LRM 5's focus more to the CT. I had to change my C4 catapult to LRM 20 and LRM 15 with Artemis due to damage being off and not getting kills.

over time if you use smaller say 6 tube launchers for LRM 5' LRM 10's, LRM 15's or LRM 20's you have more times that missiles are hitting the target with the larger launchers. LRM 5 once, LRM 10 twice, LRM 15 three, and LRM 20 four times.

Using different size missile hardpoints with larger launchers will increase your chance to focus damage to the CT and get kills, but at the cost of AMS and time. That is why stalkers with the 10 and 6 tube hard points is so dangerous firing LRMs. One other effect is that over time you are using less missiles per second.

LRMing is focusing damage to the other mech since we really can not aim. Artemis, TAG both help, but the smaller volleys over time just focus more to the CT.

The Jagger A can fire 60 LRMs at once or chain fire LRM 15's. Do the same with the Champion Stalker. It will hit the other mech more often with staggered vollies. Also kill it faster. Except for Locusts, 60 LRMs one shots them too much, even 40 LRMs can take them out.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 23 April 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I'm gonna go mess with this in Testing Grounds. I may have mentioned elsewhere that a [QQ] teammate did a LOT of testing with LRMs to try to determine an answer to the OP question.

I believe that he argued against LRM-20s, in favor of 15-5 or 10-10 combos, all else being equal. Something about the likelihood of all missiles hitting, all else being equal, was higher in smaller volleys.

AMS has something to say about that, of course. As does the movement of the target (speed, direction, closing speed with respect to firer, etc.).

Time ti dust off the JM6-A, I guess...


QUESTION: Does AMS work better for a faster-moving mech, or at least for a mech moving more quickly away from the firer? I should think it might have SOME small effect, given that it would make the missiles take longer to reach their target from the edge of the AMS's bubble to the target. Just wondering if it's been covered...

Edited by TheRAbbi, 23 April 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Statistically, a combination of 2XLRM-A10 + 2XLRM-A5 gives an overall better accuracy than 2XLRM15. Note: I mostly fire in a single salvo where possible to reduce missile attrition due to AMS. While this increased overall accuracy mathematically means more missile on-target from a combo launcher set up, I do not have statistics for LRM-A15 since the re-set for comparison and can't confirm how significant the increase is based on current speeds.

Running away from a target will slightly increase the duration available to AMS to fire. However, given the disparity in speeds between the missiles (160 m/s = 576 kph) and the fastest mech at 170+ kph (DK) IIRC, I doubt it makes a significant difference. From what I've seen, well timed sharp turns are more effective than running directly away from the missiles to extend AMS target window duration.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 23 April 2014 - 06:29 PM.