321 replies to this topic

[Zervziel]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

Says the kettle to the pot.

I've never addressed you until now so I have no clue wtf you're talking about.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

problem is pinpoint. ive been saying it and i will say it again.

remove pinpoint from almost all weapons period.

make only the gauss with its charge pinpoint because it is a sniper weapon.

PPCs->splash all 10 damage over 3-5 sections i dont care if this makes ppcs near useless im tired of seeing every dragon slayer with the same build, i even saw a shadowhawk with 1erppc and 1 gauss. its just stupid.

autocannons-> stream of high ROF bullets make it so its a beast of DPS but runs dry fast.

SRMS-> fix them NOW!

everything else spreads damage so i dont really see why a whole section of weapons are "special".

[Bishop Steiner]

Zervziel, on 23 April 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Never said they stopped being good points only that you undermined it all by deciding to act like a condescending git. (Which is fine, as I'm a practice condescending git myself)

Funnily I actually agree, that aim in those situations doesn't need to be perfect but CoF is NOT the way to do it. That's just randomized BS and no skill is involved.

Personally I think weapon weight needs to come into play. Like if someone is trying to track a fast moving target, the last weapon to become alight should be heavy ballistics mounted in the arms because that's 8-16 tons of gun trying to track something.

Plus I think we need weapon knock to actually have an effect again. Can't remember the last time I was shaken to death. Annoying, but hey we have a lot of ways to break missile lock.



I love these vast sweeping assumptions you are making of me.

I am not against your idea. But would point out that in shooting some randomness always exists. There is a reason a sniper doesn't put all 5 bullets through exactly the same hole. Too many variables. And they don't even spread in a predictable pattern. And that's using match tuned gear with custom made ammo to maximize accuracy from a perfectly stable position.

Using military grade gear, which is designed to be reliable first, one does not get to enjoy such consistency, as tight tolerances need for precision shooting also foul up very fast. Randomness is actually quite realistic, BUT, the key is where the randomness ensues, and how severe. When I talk about CoF, I am not referring to the extent that CoD thrives on. But I do believe in there being enough, in the extremes I listed where all shots might not hit the same location.

I do like your premise, TBH, really need to think on it.

[Mystere]

WarZ, on 23 April 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

The random hit reticle shake mechanic needs to be active anytime a mech is in the air.

Why not go the full distance and have it active anytime a mech is in motion?

[Zervziel]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

I am not against your idea. But would point out that in shooting some randomness always exists. There is a reason a sniper doesn't put all 5 bullets through exactly the same hole. Too many variables. And they don't even spread in a predictable pattern. And that's using match tuned gear with custom made ammo to maximize accuracy from a perfectly stable position.

Using military grade gear, which is designed to be reliable first, one does not get to enjoy such consistency, as tight tolerances need for precision shooting also foul up very fast. Randomness is actually quite realistic, BUT, the key is where the randomness ensues, and how severe. When I talk about CoF, I am not referring to the extent that CoD thrives on. But I do believe in there being enough, in the extremes I listed where all shots might not hit the same location.

I do like your premise, TBH, really need to think on it.

Well too be fair, you likely meant having CoF to a smaller degree than what it's old TT supporters wanted (one weapon pod some how hitting an arm and the opposite leg) but considering how awesome PGI is at getting things right, I'd be surprised if the twin Medlas on the VTR-9S's left arm managed to hit within the same timezone. Kinda why I don't want it is someone would screw it up to the point I'd be lucky if my weapons hit the same planet.

What might work is a minor debuff to be implemented if a section is damaged enough. I mean hit a torso with a ton of missiles and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the weapons became misaligned or malfunction so they cause less damage. Like say the magnetiuc coils for the PPC and the gauss lose energy while firing. This could be set on the same likeliness table as ammo explosions work.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

It's thanks to abuse of the ****** poptarting meta that my Highlander and Victor have been ruined as brawlers thanks to their torso and jump jet nerf (which did nothing to deal with the poptarting issue itself). So yeah, for this reason alone the poptart tactic has definitely reduced my enjoyment of the game quite apart from how annoying it looks and how cheap it feels to be on the receiving end of it. I used to do it in my cataphract a bit a year ago but quickly got bored of it and detested how it ruined 8/12 man battles, to the point where I'm not bothering joining a competitive team until the issue gets fixed once and for all.

[Sybreed]

You know this whole poptart debate made me think of Counter-Strike.

There's a reason they nerfed jump firing into the ground in that game, it was simply bad gameplay.

[WarZ]

Mystere, on 23 April 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Why not go the full distance and have it active anytime a mech is in motion?

Because that is not necessary to counter what is essentially the problem exploit. The jump sniping works so well because its a very high reward with very little risk tactic. Thats what needs to be addressed. Mechs walking around and shooting and brawling is not an exploit. Landing high damage alphas on an enemey mech with nearly no chance of effective return fire is an exploit / balance problem.

Your troll has been averted.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Sybreed, on 23 April 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

You know this whole poptart debate made me think of Counter-Strike.

There's a reason they nerfed jump firing into the ground in that game, it was simply bad gameplay.

thank you the gods of reason have spoken.

i remember bunny hoppers in CS, anyone else remember how stupid it was?

its not like modern day tacticaly SWAT took a page out of this book, whens the last time you saw them "bunny hoppin" around?

[Nyte Kitsune]

Mellifluer, on 24 April 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

its not like modern day tacticaly SWAT took a page out of this book, whens the last time you saw them "bunny hoppin" around?

Never, but would be great to get something like that on camera. Imagine how many hits you'd get on YouTube with a video like that (or keep privately for blackmail purposes, jk). lol

[Demuder]

Zervziel, on 23 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

I don't think I'm alone in not liking the game arbitrarily deciding when I can and can't hit my target. Even in situational uses CoF is pretty bullshit as you need a pretty good in-game explanation why my lasers just hared off target by 30 degrees.

Quite frankly I see more wrong with it than right.

The laws of physics and universal technical limitations are not "good" enough reasons ?

I won't even go into how mechs are supposed to work and what kind of technology they employ. Heaven forbid we actually pay any attention to lore other than the skin on the mechs.

What I find extremely ironic is that if the game was introduced with a CoF right off the bat and mechs unable to fire off any weapons while airborne, nobody would even think of asking for that to change. PGI managed to gimp the game right at the start.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zervziel, on 23 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

I don't think I'm alone in not liking the game arbitrarily deciding when I can and can't hit my target. Even in situational uses CoF is pretty bullshit as you need a pretty good in-game explanation why my lasers just hared off target by 30 degrees.

Quite frankly I see more wrong with it than right.

Actually Lasers should be the best converging weapon we have. Laser Accurate is a thing. Ballistics the faster your RoF the less accurate you are. A cone of fire that allows my 203 mm AC20 rounds to hit within a 1 yard Radius on a robot the size of a two story building is darn accurate. Considering the right or left torso of many Mechs are probably bigger that 6' across!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 April 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

dimstog, on 24 April 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

The laws of physics and universal technical limitations are not "good" enough reasons ?

I won't even go into how mechs are supposed to work and what kind of technology they employ. Heaven forbid we actually pay any attention to lore other than the skin on the mechs.

What I find extremely ironic is that if the game was introduced with a CoF right off the bat and mechs unable to fire off any weapons while airborne, nobody would even think of asking for that to change. PGI managed to gimp the game right at the start.

I don't think it would make sense to not allow airborne weapons firing though, from a reality or lore perspective (though certain weapons, like Gauss, noted fro it's recoil, might nit be such a swell idea) But what in the world would keep lasers from firing?


Now firing ACCURATELY.... that, that is a whole different story, indeed!

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

actually, you do realize you just said what I was saying?

FLD = Instant Dmg Transfer
PinPoint = Precise Placement of damage to one location
DoT = Damage applied as long as weapon is kept on target, over time
Hitscan = Instantaneous hit, no projectile speed

Only one of those has anything to do with the projectile's path to the target itself. ( I Honestly don't know the term for "TtT" (Time to Target) projectiles)

One can be FLD without being pinpoint, one cannot be pinpoint without being FLD.


I've been saying that since the first post on the topic.

I came late to the party where someone else was confused, and I saw you type

Quote

Hitscan means the weapon has no travel time.

Pinpoint infers instant damage transfer. Just sayin!

and misread it as "Pinpoint means instant damage transfer."

That's actually what started all this. Tired eyes from looking at the work monitor all day in addition to posting, lol. Skipped a line

Glad to see we still agree on most things, lol.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 24 April 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Solahma]

One of my biggest gripes with MW4 was hill-humping Nova Cats. People, including myself, did it because it was very effective. Being able to unload all of your firepower in a quick window of time with minimal return fire. Isn't that the go-to tactic for any shooter when possible? Pop-tarting is absolutely no different. Hill humping in MWO isn't as prevalent because of mech accel. and decel. It prevents mechs from immediately moving into reverse like you could in MW4.

Pop-tarting will never go away, and it shouldn't. Pin-point damage will never go away, and it shouldn't. Doesn't mean you have to like it though.

Edited by Solahma, 24 April 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I agree with you most times Solahma but Pin Point damage from 2-5 weapons should go away unless they are lasers... and maybe PPC.

Put a 50 cal on a properly anchored tripod dope it in, and then fire it, nice tight grouping. Now fire that 50 from the back of a jeep or rolling combat vehicle... not quite as accurate any more. Pin point convergence is a lie and not an indication of mad skillz.

[Spawnsalot]

How would people feel about the following sweeping changes? I realise this is affecting more than just poptarting and pinpoint alphas but I got a bit carried away and well... there's no kill quite like overkill.

Add independent reticle sway while moving, torso and arm reticles follow different patterns. Intensity affected by ground-speed and weight class - follows a non-linear curve - negligible at lower speeds, ramping up drastically at much higher speeds. The heavier the weight class the more pronounced the movements.

Make ACs burst fire. (Or add them as ACs from different manufacturers alongside current ACs.)

Increase the recharge time on EVERYTHING.

Keep armour doubled.

Make mechs react more to impacts, throw torso and arm aiming off. Arms are more easily affected than torsos. Intensity varies from incoming fire - lasers do not affect aim, ACs do more as calibre increases, PPC in line with AC/10, missiles do more as rating increases.
A constant stream of impulse will be lessened as the duration increases as a mechs gyro compensates and counteracts the effects. Lighter mechs are affected more initially but recover quicker whereas this is reversed as weight class increases with assault mechs needing a lot of punishment to throw off their aim but a longer time to compensate under fire.
Mechs hit mid-air are more strongly affected and are at risk of tipping over.

Mechs take more damage from falling, fall-height to damage ratio follows non-linear curve, damage is increased as weight class increases. If you don't want to launch yourself off a ledge slow down before you reach it. Jump-capable mechs can negate fall damage through use of jump-jets.

No or limited convergence on torso mounted weapons.

Ballistics, PPCs and missiles have recoil, increases as weapon rating increases. Torso mounted weapons do not generate as much recoil as arm mounted weapons. Mechs firing in mid-air with recoil generating weapons are very strongly affected and are at risk of tipping over, this can be lessened through the use of jump-jets to counteract the impulse.

A mech that is tipped over in mid-air will not be able to use jump-jets to affect its fall to anywhere near the same degree as if it were upright, depending on the orientation it may not be able to use jump-jets to affect the fall at all and will hit the ground for full damage. Landing on it's front or back spreads damage over the front or back of the mech, landing on an arm will focus all the damage on that arm. Engines cannot be destroyed by falling in this manner unless all other components in the torso are destroyed already.

Mechs that run into walls or each other suffer armour damage for the duration of contact based on combined collision speed. Speed to damage ratio follows a non-linear curve. Collisions with geometry use double the crashing mechs speed.

Lower heat threshold, increase heat dissipation, remove ghost heat.

As a mech heats up it reacts slower, accelerates slower, top-speed is limited, heat-sinks are less efficient, cockpit instruments (HUD overlay) adversely affected/begins flickering on and off, if a mech remains at high temperatures for extended periods of time there is a chance that ammo it is carrying will explode. Penalties decrease as heat comes down.

Anyone like to add to that or offer up alternatives?

[Omaha]

I like the jump snipe mechanic, though I will say that some ppl do take it a bit over board and fit every ballistic/energy weapon they can find on their mechs. Plus slotting only 1 or 2 jj's. Myself I like height and being able to JUMP I slot all JJ's usually.

I guess that's just the way the game is. PPL want to hit hard. PPL want to jump. I got no probs with it. Just press y and say poptart in c4. Your team will then hopefully becareful and seek him out. Or if you have lrm fire they will supress his jumping. All you need is a little supressing fire to deal with them while another mech closes in. Or even a narc hit. or tag hit. or etc etc. The choice is yours. Just dont stand still! Keeping jumpers distracted. While mechs close in with ecm is prob one of the best ways to deal with it. Reguardless you should at least say something in chat find some cover and press "y" it only takes a seocnd to type something.

In team games I don't think its so much of a problem. It's when pug get involved in teams. Then the pugs got no idea whats happening cuz "teamers" usually dont chat over chat in game.

I dunno but I think it's pretty well balanced as it is. Screenshake, jump nerf to highlander, maybe should be done to other assults. Or make their jj weigh slightly more. I dunno I play a medium, and love it. Go Trebs!

Edited by Omaha, 24 April 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[Demuder]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

I don't think it would make sense to not allow airborne weapons firing though, from a reality or lore perspective (though certain weapons, like Gauss, noted fro it's recoil, might nit be such a swell idea) But what in the world would keep lasers from firing?


Now firing ACCURATELY.... that, that is a whole different story, indeed!

Well... try firing a rifle while standing absolutely straight. Unless you are a very big guy (and even then) you would tip over. If you are in the air... well, you would probably rotate enough to faceplant when you come down.

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't see Missiles needing recoil, PPCs maybe a small recoil. Adding burst ACs along with the FLD ACs would be fine but I see where that would fail obviously cause I wouldn't use em...

Otherwise you have a bunch of good ideas there Spawns.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 April 2014 - 06:33 AM.