321 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

[Screech]

Never really had an issue with pop-tarts. Moving in on tarts using terrain is pretty simple as they still need LOS to get any shot off. Standing still staring at them is not an effective counter though.

High pinpoint damage is only really an issue when combined with people who can aim. Then it really becomes a problem.

[Rebas Kradd]

The problem with poptarting is that it keeps you alive longer. The rest of the team exposes itself, wears down the enemy but dies sooner, and the poptarters are left to finish the job with their PPC/AC5 alpha build. The strength of poptarters has less to do with the weapons and more to do with their survivability.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 23 April 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Stiffy, on 23 April 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

People seem like all they want is to brawl. Crossing an area which has LOS to where your enemy is simply isn't very smart. You can't just get cover for 500m and call it a day. Sniper, Brawler, Scout, Missile Boat, Jump Jet Sniper, these are all in my opinion valid builds. I don't enjoy jump sniping and don't really pilot many that have jump jets. But I get called a 'pop tart' in my shadow hawk because I use an AC2 on people.

Such lame terms, all of it. Nobody cares about 12v12 metagame except a handful of people and balancing the game completely around that is stupid. Playing a mech with 2 gauss rifles or that is capable of effectively using 3 ERPPC's along with jump jets builds you into a corner and in PUG, which is what the vast majority of players are playing, this leaves you lop-sided.

I am the guy who wants to trade blows with snipers, LRMboats or brawlers to see who flinches first. Guess I need a Chicken walker or two if I wanna keep playing THIS game!

[InRev]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Debatable really. Seen many a Popper get shot down. Again, if the popper is smart, then perhaps is enemy is less so. Surely makes thing easier...

It's not debatable at all. A poptart moves vertically and horizontally. Only the truly terrible ones just pogo in one spot. The ones with at least 1/4 a brain get a running start parallel to the ride-line first. A non poptart, however, will at best only move horizontally. It's a lot easier to account for a single axis when aiming at a target, especially when going for CT shots with a 30 point alpha.

[Gas Guzzler]

t9nv3, on 23 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

For me, the problem arises from how JJ's are implimented in this game. All in all they seem a bit underwhelming and to be honest, encourage this sort of meta. JJ's should be about repositioning your mech quickly, implimented to either get a lighter more nimble mech into a rear firing arc, or, the case of havier mechs, to get you out of a tight situation and into a better postion....oh, and they should build heat.

JJ's shouldn't be designed let you jump up and down (unless you need to change facing). They should get you moving in a specific direction very quickly. The choice as to whether or not you want to use them should be based on drawbacks to heat and one's ability to aim. This would make the game a lot more tactical.

Your heat efficiency does take a hit.

Honestly its part of the game. I do it when two teams are separated by an LRM no-mans land because just standing there is boring and its a good way to get shots off. But really even in the absence of LRMs if you think you should be able to leave cover to "brawl" you are a little bit delusional. Yeah reading the Battletech books or in the "canon", every Mech battle for the most parts seems like a pissing match. They don't talk about cover or anything but lets be real you can't not use cover in a combat game if there is cover to be had. You can't bash someone for using cover because you are frustrated sitting there waiting for them to show themselves while trying to shoot at them when they momentarily pop out of cover. That puts you at the disadvantage and if you are in the firing line of people popping in and out of cover, you should try re-positioning yourself. Honestly, if neither team is rushing it doesn't make sense to do anything but hide behind cover, getting shots off while you can.

30 point alphas: okay so someone is popping in and out of cover with 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s. 34 tons of weapons and ammo plus a few heat sinks. AC5 DPS just took a hit, not as effective close range. Also, the velocity disparity makes it more difficult to hit one component with all 30 damage. Rushing them will ruin their day. Its not unbeatable, its just about giving yourself the advantage.

Honestly "poptarting" takes no more or less "skill" then anything else in this game, its all point and click, spread damage, use cover. I find ECM 2x ERLL ravens more annoying than poptarts by a long shot. Its very frustrating reading all this stuff because everyone wants everyone else to play how they want to play, and that's just not going to happen.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 April 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Here's a full PPC Pop Tart!

[RetroActive]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

we need things that add a little realism to the silliness of of how ridiculously easy it is to aim in this game. People want to talk skill, but due to lack of any outside interference, it's barely a skill. It's click a pixel. I can Jump, hit arm lock, and instantly pinpoint land a 30 pt alpha on any location on a mech 1000+ meters away (technically not 30 pts at that range at least) in pretty much any location but the head, with frightening efficiency. Because in PGI's quest for "skill" they have overlooked that skill isn't about not having any outside influences, it's about understanding them and working around them to get the results.

I know that you mentioned that it is not actually possible to land a 30pt alpha on a target at 1000+ meters, but this is a common incorrect statement on these forums.

I'd like someone to show me a usable smurfy build that is able to land a 30 pt direct fire alpha at over 1000m. I'm not going to do the math, but at over 1000m a 2xAC5+2xPPC alpha is going to be considerably less than 30 damage. Plus, with the difference in travel times, this considerably-lower-than-30pt alpha will probably spread across the target mech.

To answer the OP's question, I am just fine with poptarting and high alpha damage. I was not OK with it when the meta alpha was 45, but I think 30 is perfectly acceptable.

[Bishop Steiner]

RetroActive, on 23 April 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I know that you mentioned that it is not actually possible to land a 30pt alpha on a target at 1000+ meters, but this is a common incorrect statement on these forums.

I'd like someone to show me a usable smurfy build that is able to land a 30 pt direct fire alpha at over 1000m. I'm not going to do the math, but at over 1000m a 2xAC5+2xPPC alpha is going to be considerably less than 30 damage. Plus, with the difference in travel times, this considerably-lower-than-30pt alpha will probably spread across the target mech.

To answer the OP's question, I am just fine with poptarting and high alpha damage. I was not OK with it when the meta alpha was 45, but I think 30 is perfectly acceptable.

I think the results on field do speak more than raw damage. If it was not still unbalanced it would not be the tactic of choice for the higher brackets. (though they do much more "tactical" poptarting in the good clans and are mobile, whereas most are stationary largely.)

Even the so called LRMageddon 2.0 did not knock poptarting from the Throne. Also remember, no one really fear one poptart. Where potarting and FLD become an issue is when you have the full lance of Premades in the PUG queue. So even if we half the damage at 1000 meters that is still 45-60 damage hitting your mech, depending on how many get the angle.

On a game the devs state they want to increase TtK, being able to be one shot by a full lance, at 1000+ meters, for being exposed .5 second while sprinting between cover seems a little counter. And yet it ain't all that uncommon.

But yes, it is preferable to NOT have a GAuss and 2 ER PPC smashing one in the face every time one remotely attempted to move.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 April 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Here's a full PPC Pop Tart!

Pikachu, use PPC bolt! It's super effective!

[Gas Guzzler]

InRev, on 23 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's not debatable at all. A poptart moves vertically and horizontally. Only the truly terrible ones just pogo in one spot. The ones with at least 1/4 a brain get a running start parallel to the ride-line first. A non poptart, however, will at best only move horizontally. It's a lot easier to account for a single axis when aiming at a target, especially when going for CT shots with a 30 point alpha.

A hill humper moves up and down vertically as well.

Wait a terrible poptart? If poptarting required no skill then all poptarts would be equal....

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 April 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Your heat efficiency does take a hit.

Honestly its part of the game. I do it when two teams are separated by an LRM no-mans land because just standing there is boring and its a good way to get shots off. But really even in the absence of LRMs if you think you should be able to leave cover to "brawl" you are a little bit delusional. Yeah reading the Battletech books or in the "canon", every Mech battle for the most parts seems like a pissing match. They don't talk about cover or anything but lets be real you can't not use cover in a combat game if there is cover to be had. You can't bash someone for using cover because you are frustrated sitting there waiting for them to show themselves while trying to shoot at them when they momentarily pop out of cover. That puts you at the disadvantage and if you are in the firing line of people popping in and out of cover, you should try re-positioning yourself. Honestly, if neither team is rushing it doesn't make sense to do anything but hide behind cover, getting shots off while you can.

30 point alphas: okay so someone is popping in and out of cover with 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s. 34 tons of weapons and ammo plus a few heat sinks. AC5 DPS just took a hit, not as effective close range. Also, the velocity disparity makes it more difficult to hit one component with all 30 damage. Rushing them will ruin their day. Its not unbeatable, its just about giving yourself the advantage.

Honestly "poptarting" takes no more or less "skill" then anything else in this game, its all point and click, spread damage, use cover. I find ECM 2x ERLL ravens more annoying than poptarts by a long shot. Its very frustrating reading all this stuff because everyone wants everyone else to play how they want to play, and that's just not going to happen.

It's not about leaving cover to brawl. Even to use cover effectively, leave you exposed at times. The ease at which 3-4 mechs can snap shot you at long range while doing so is the point in contention.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

I think the results on field do speak more than raw damage. If it was not still unbalanced it would not be the tactic of choice for the higher brackets. (though they do much more "tactical" poptarting in the good clans and are mobile, whereas most are stationary largely.) Even the so called LRMageddon 2.0 did not knock poptarting from the Throne. But yes, it is preferable to NOT have a GAuss and 2 ER PPC smashing one in the face every time wone remotely attempted to move.

There is always going to be a tactic that is better then others, and higher bracket players are trying to do the best. Asking for EVERYTHING to be 100% equal is unreasonable.

In all honesty though I see high ELO players racking up 800+ damage in Stalkers which cannot poptart.

[Archon]

I think it's perfectly balanced as it is. Both poptarting and pinpoint damage are a part of the BT/MW universe and always have been, and they're currently in a place where they're working fine without being overpowered.

I feel like the game is actually coming to a point where it's more balanced than it has ever been before in terms of damage dealing types; LRM fighting is fine, pinpoint damage is fine, brawling just needs a bit of a buff but I think we'll get that with the next patch. I'm still not happy with Ghost Heat and Gauss Rifles but things are better.

[RetroActive]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

When you start snapping off pinpoint hits for 20-30 damage to one location at 1000 meters, while overheating at full run, we might compare the two. People (well, smart people the forums do QQ about everything) don't compare the TripleX Ilya or BoomJager to poptarting because both designs have far more inherent limitations to their ability to inflict harm (for one having to be relatively close, and exposed to do it)

It's not about people running around in the open (I believe that would be the LRM whiners) though I am sure some people are dumb enough to do so..

If Poptarting did not lend an overwhelming advantage it would NOT BE THE META, especially at High Elo. It is for a reason.

But then again, you mention this incorrect forum rhetoric again in this post. I did the math, and at 1000m the meta alpha is 9.44. Hardly anything to worry about.

[Joseph Mallan]

Archon, on 23 April 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I think it's perfectly balanced as it is. Both poptarting and pinpoint damage are a part of the BT/MW universe and always have been, and they're currently in a place where they're working fine without being overpowered.

I feel like the game is actually coming to a point where it's more balanced than it has ever been before in terms of damage dealing types; LRM fighting is fine, pinpoint damage is fine, brawling just needs a bit of a buff but I think we'll get that with the next patch. I'm still not happy with Ghost Heat and Gauss Rifles but things are better.

Are you sure you played TT for the last 30ish years?

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

It's not about leaving cover to brawl. Even to use cover effectively, leave you exposed at times. The ease at which 3-4 mechs can snap shot you at long range while doing so is the point in contention.

Indeed that can be unfortunate. Two scenarios where that happens:

1) High ELO premade focusing fire
2) You are the only mech visible, or the most obvious

Poptarting isn't the primary reason. Most of the time if its the second scenario you also hear "INCOMING MISSILE" and see 60+ missiles heading your way because some LRM boats were just sitting there waiting for a target to pop up. Honestly I don't know what to tell you. If you aren't standing still at range usually you wont get 3-4 guys hitting you with 30 damage all in the same spot.

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Are you sure you played TT for the last 30ish years?

Was thinking the same thing... Unless he was always using a targeting computer, but even that came with a negative to your to-hit chance.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I like butter on my poptarts. My friends all thought I was crazy. Until they tried it.

As for this game I think the tactic should be available but I think it is perhaps out of line. It is getting better with the recent changes and I'd prefer the slow change to something heavy handed like adding screen shake to the entirety of a jump.

Maybe the next step is to improve the natural predators of jump snipers (whatever they may be). After the upcoming SRM changes I would consider other buffs to close range weapons. Perhaps if brawlers find it worth while to get shot up on the way to their target we would see more of them.

Pin point will always be around, the very nature of the game is to disable mechs as fast as you can and pinpoint is much better at it. Consider that 4 medium lasers deal equal damage to an AC20 but most of us consider the AC20 to be far better at killing stuff despite its massive weight.

Edited by Rouken, 23 April 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[RetroActive]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

I think the results on field do speak more than raw damage. If it was not still unbalanced it would not be the tactic of choice for the higher brackets. (though they do much more "tactical" poptarting in the good clans and are mobile, whereas most are stationary largely.)

Even the so called LRMageddon 2.0 did not knock poptarting from the Throne. Also remember, no one really fear one poptart. Where potarting and FLD become an issue is when you have the full lance of Premades in the PUG queue. So even if we half the damage at 1000 meters that is still 45-60 damage hitting your mech, depending on how many get the angle.

On a game the devs state they want to increase TtK, being able to be one shot by a full lance, at 1000+ meters, for being exposed .5 second while sprinting between cover seems a little counter. And yet it ain't all that uncommon.

But yes, it is preferable to NOT have a GAuss and 2 ER PPC smashing one in the face every time one remotely attempted to move.

Wouldn't you EXPECT to be one-shotted if you exposed yourself to an entire lance? Why are you so focused on poptarts? a lance of Hunchbacks could one shot a mech if it exposed itself to them.

And once again, there is no lance that can one shot a mech at over 1000 m, unless they happened to hit the head. You're exaggerating a LOT in this thread.