321 replies to this topic

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Is it broken or is it balanced? Is it common or uncommon?
Do you think its hard to poptart or is it easy?

The reason I ask, being that in the latest NGNG Mechs, Dev's, and Beer, Paul Inouye said something along the lines of the following, which was ripped from an /r/OutreachHPG post by user KRC759

14:00 - Person making a 30 point shot has to jump through hoops and that's a skill shot. Heat scale is working exactly as they want.

What do you think about the current state of poptarting and high damage pinpoint fire?

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 23 April 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[DONTOR]

I think it is un-avoidable, and a permanent part of the game. I never go full meta, but I do like (2 PPC, 1 UAC) or (2 AC5, 1 PPC) on occasion. Usually on an BLR, or banshee.
It adds depth to the game, you shouldnt be able to just charge head first into a brawl, it should take clever positiong and some tactics to get in close. And when you do you can pretty much man handle jump snipers, they arent suited to brawling. No matter what happens the jump snipers will be here, we just have to adapt and overcome.
It looks easy on paper, but like any playstyle it takes practice to be very proficient at it.

[Demuder]

Funnily enough I find that high pinpoint damage, especially combined with poptarting requires the least skill and is the most boring of any other type of gameplay - that's why my 3D is gathering dust since the match I mastered it. Even LRM boating is more fun.

When the reticle shake was implemented I played a game or two with it to come to the same conclusion once again.

I guess I am a brawler type of guy.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pop Tarting
Something that does not happen in Canon very often... at all. If you wanna jump up and fall back to the ground you should take damage to your legs if you fall hard enough. That is game balanced.

High Pin Point Damage
Should require an Advanced Targeting Computer and with out one our targeting should be accurate within a (properly scaled) foot or two. And should get worse the more weapons we fire(Alpha).

[El Bandito]

I'd say something, but my homies got me covered.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Pygar]

Definition- "Pop Tarting": Sniping while using cover, particularly coming out of cover for long enough to take a quick and hopefully well aimed shot, then darting back behind cover as fast as possible in hopes that your enemy can't shoot you back. Usually "Pop Tart" is used to describe Jump Sniping, but also applies to Ridge Humping and Corner Peeping as well.

This tactic is simple logic, and has been around forever (both in BT/MW and in real warfare)....in MWO, they have done a decent job of keeping it under control- in MW4 Mercs, Jump Sniping was totally OP and that was almost all you would see in PVP matches. In MWO the only problem I seem to have with "Pop Tarting" are the people who are doing it badly, spending the majority of matches hiding behind cover in an assault mech that should be brawling and tanking, racking up a measly 200 damage with Large Lasers while the rest of their team gets murdered.

Edited by Pygar, 23 April 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

I'm curious how the speed reduction to the AC5 has affected the PPC/AC5 meta.

[Jman5]

I think they hit pay dirt when they adjusted jumpjets on the highlander to have that slower initial lift off. I'm saddened that they didn't extend that specific nerf to the victor and cataphract.

[AlmightyAeng]

Rebas Kradd, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

I'm curious how the speed reduction to the AC5 has affected the PPC/AC5 meta.

Still works great for me. I find 'pop-tarting' to be the the most efficient way to easily deal pinpoint damage to a CT while making the best use of cover and taking the least amount of damage. It's why I don't do it terribly often...and when I do I expect high kills/scores and it's usually as a pick-me-up if I've had a string of bad games in a row.

[Windsaw]

Besides ECM, poptarting is the worst thing ever to happen to MWO.

What angers me is that it is a tactic that is encouraged. It could be removed quite easily: Just add shake not only on the ascend but also on the descend of the jump. Problem solved.
They don't so it is here to stay.

High pinpoint strikes are also annyoing and shouldn't exist (or at least shouldn't be so easy), but here at least I may be able to understand that they won't be removed for technical reasons.

[InRev]

It's low-risk, high reward. It doesn't take any more "skill" (whatever the hell that is supposed to be) than any other shot while moving (seriously, taking thumb off of spacebar before shooting is not a difficult concept). The difference is the fact that you drop behind cover immediately and the enemy cannot reliably predict where you may pop out of next, if you're behind a decent-sized ridge.

Couple that with a big pinpoint alpha, you can basically cripple a non-poptart without giving them any opportunity to reliably respond. It's harder to hit a poptart than to be a poptart.

The best counter (other than your own poptarts, obviously) is probably LRMs with a decent spotter who doesn't get himself killed by taking unnecessary shots instead of just spotting. No surprise then that poptarts are usually the biggest LRM complainers.

Edited by InRev, 23 April 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Creovex]

@OP

It's part of the game, takes some skill, but totally legit IMO. They are not invincible and have to make tonnage like everyone else. Since jumpjets reduce directional speed, it just means arty when they leap haha!

I think this issue can be put to bed.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 23 April 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

I think they hit pay dirt when they adjusted jumpjets on the highlander to have that slower initial lift off. I'm saddened that they didn't extend that specific nerf to the victor and cataphract.

Neg, this did nothing for jump sniping. No changes to JJs will until screen shake is persistent through the entire jump (as it really should be anyway) this coming from someone forced into jump sniping...

[LoneMaverick]

dimstog, on 23 April 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Funnily enough I find that high pinpoint damage, especially combined with poptarting requires the least skill and is the most boring of any other type of gameplay - that's why my 3D is gathering dust since the match I mastered it. Even LRM boating is more fun.

When the reticle shake was implemented I played a game or two with it to come to the same conclusion once again.

I guess I am a brawler type of guy.

This, as much as trashpubs using metabuilds will whine otherwise, pinpoint metabuild(+/- JJs) require the least skill to get effective damage onto an enemy.

As long as FLD builds exist and have little/no downsides, there will be no way to balance said weapons without removing the FLD.

Edited by LoneMaverick, 23 April 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[DONTOR]

Rebas Kradd, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

I'm curious how the speed reduction to the AC5 has affected the PPC/AC5 meta.

At longer ranges the shots wont hit the same spot if your moving, but within 600M or so its still decent, but the faster you are going the more it will spread now. I have noticed it on my fast mechs 30 pont alphas are turning into 20 damgage from ppcs on one component and 10 from AC5s on another which is pretty sweet.

[Adiuvo]

I think it's fine and well balanced. The game needs a mix of brawling and sniping. Right now we have the sniping part in the right spot, but the brawling portion is hindered by the lack of SRM hit reg.

I don't think TTK is too high. If you're not getting your assault mech into at the very least sub 40s by the time you die that's a problem with your torso twisting, or you got headshot. If you think you're getting instantly obliterated by one or two poptarts, you need to improve your situational awareness because there were most likely more like 6 people with line of sight on you.

Gyrok, on 23 April 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Neg, this did nothing for jump sniping. No changes to JJs will until screen shake is persistent through the entire jump (as it really should be anyway) this coming from someone forced into jump sniping...

You're wrong on this point. The changes to Highlander thrust renders it too slow to effectively jump over dips in the terrain, leaving it exposed to enemy fire for much too long of a period. The Victor is the better jumpsniper by far in every situation short of an open field, due to the HGN JJ nerfs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pygar, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Definition- "Pop Tarting": Sniping while using cover, particularly coming out of cover for long enough to take a quick and hopefully well aimed shot, then darting back behind cover as fast as possible in hopes that your enemy can't shoot you back. Usually "Pop Tart" is used to describe Jump Sniping, but also applies to Ridge Humping and Corner Peeping as well.

All due respect Jump and sniping are words that should not be used together. With the few exceptions, snipers are firing from stable platforms and/or steady body positions not while in mid jump!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I still say that a dynamic precision reduction mechanic is necessary and proper for MWO.

What does this mean?

1 - When running hot, weapons should deviate around the aim point. I favor heat penalties beginning around 25% and scaling up as you approach 100%. Very minor penalties at lower levels (say, below 70%) should minimally impact careful pilots while still somewhat reducing concentrated group fire, while larger penalties at higher heat levels should encourage smarter heat management.

2 - When moving at high throttle (not raw speed, but throttle %), weapons should deviate around the aim point. Throttle % is necessary to preserve Light mech viability and to apply the penalty to lumbering Assaults. I favor minor penalties beginning around 50% throttle, and only starting to ramp up past 90% throttle.

3 - When off the ground, weapons should deviate around the aim point. This should just be a flat amount, and doesn't need to be too significant, though it should not be minimal.

4 - When burning jump jets, weapons should deviate around the aim point. This should be far more significant than the off-the-ground modifier, though symmetrical JJ arrangements could gain a slight advantage that reduces the penalty somewhat.

5 - When a mech receives impulse, weapons should deviate around the aim point. This effect should last for about half a second and should be a rolling effect (adding and removing levels of deviation as distinct sources of impulse arrive or expire).

All of the above conditions should stack with each other (if someone is running at 80% heat, 100% throttle, is off the ground, has his JJs activated, and is taking LRM hits, then it should have absolutely terrible precision).

Note, this is about precision reduction, not accuracy reduction. Accuracy penalties without precision reduction would cause weapons to deviate in a particular direction, which after the initial shot would be easy to correct for, and even without correcting would still lump all shots into a single impact point. Precision penalties without accuracy reduction, though, means that shots deviate around the aim point, inherently spreading shots out without making aiming pointless.

[Veranova]

DONTOR, on 23 April 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

I think it is un-avoidable, and a permanent part of the game. I never go full meta, but I do like (2 PPC, 1 UAC) or (2 AC5, 1 PPC) on occasion. Usually on an BLR, or banshee.
It adds depth to the game, you shouldnt be able to just charge head first into a brawl, it should take clever positiong and some tactics to get in close. And when you do you can pretty much man handle jump snipers, they arent suited to brawling. No matter what happens the jump snipers will be here, we just have to adapt and overcome.
It looks easy on paper, but like any playstyle it takes practice to be very proficient at it.

This, and I would add that it's an important playstyle for inclusion. There should be as many ways to play this game as possible, that's what will ultimately make it tactical.

Rebas Kradd, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

I'm curious how the speed reduction to the AC5 has affected the PPC/AC5 meta.

Poptart's already were starting to spend as much of their time as possible corner humping to use their AC5's for DPS. This is thanks to the Jumpjet changes which slowled the DPS of Jump-sniping in Victors/Highlanders pretty massively.
So the AC5 nerf reduced the DPS when corner humping, which pulls another element of Poptarting back a bit.

Personally I'm really happy with where my Victor is sat now. I can be safe behind cover, but it will take much longer to do the same amount of damage as before. However it's still viable, and I have to be much more careful of shooting and moving as the enemy has loads of time to push up on me in that situation.
Likewise It's now much safer to push up on Poptarts and take them out of their element.

Edited by Veranova, 23 April 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Jack Avery]

I don't have such a big problem with poptarting itself anymore, as it is a decent use of JJs. What I have a problem with is the precision with multiple weapons. This isn't just in regards to poptarting, but all areas. The damage system of this game, based off of TT simply cannot function properly with that kind of precision. You aren't supposed to get all those guns on one panel, or only very rarely with some very special equipment. The game just breaks. I just don't know why they won't admit that, either to us, or to themselves.

Now, a single weapon system at a time, or chain fire? Yeah, those can land on one spot every time. That doesn't break the game.

All this said, I don't think weapons should deviate to the point that they mimic current SSRMs, but just enough that one or two shots in the group might drift over to the next component. I know people don't like luck being a part of skilled gameplay, but how you react to both good and bad luck is part of skilled play.