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#1 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM

Note, this is a topic split from http://mwomercs.com/...-anything-poll/ to help separate these two different topics.

Quote

Dude, I've facedesked this forum so many times that my mouse has a lateral drift.
You just DON'T tell your customers that you do that.


I do not think that particular subreddit (r/mwo) can be defined as a base for our fans or customers any longer...

Rather, since the change of management, and the resulting diaspora of our active Reddit fans towards r/OutreachHPG and other Subreddits. r/mwo has essentially become an echo-chamber for those who have been banned from our services for repeated abusive behavior.

The abuse resulting in the original bans could range from anything from repeatedly advertising other services in an off-topic manner, directly insulting and harassing another staff member, spamming vulgarities, or so on. But generally speaking, there were always attempts to warn the player to provide feedback in a manner that is less toxic and those players who were banned showed an unhealthy desire with continuing anyways or were disingenuous with our staff at any time of showing remorse for their actions.

Putting aside the eternal argument of "who started it" which continues to put modern geo-politics into a circular stalemate... Our staff often cannot post there without facing a grab-bag of toxicity. This is compounded by those who continue to use alt-accounts to try and provide themselves with a disproportionate voice as well as to downvote bomb staff posts out-of-view. It is made even worse by the fact that those in this sub-reddit who show any active fandom are referred to as shills while, ironically, those who would seek to draw players away from our game or draw away staff from their work simply to insult them are being lauded.

While I have stayed silent on this particular subject in the past to allow the Community time to adapt and reset following those changes. I am dismayed by the results. Over 4000 registered subscribers at stake and the majority of those remaining active being forced to move elsewhere. In fairness, to the new overlords of r/mwo: The actual carrying out of takeover was indeed one worthy of an Inner Sphere story. It is simply a shame we are left a Periphery wasteland in what was once a Noble House. My sincerest hope in that regard is that I am proven wrong sometime in the future...Some basic moderation standards would go a long way so we can help address legitimate and constructive concerns.

In the meantime, however, PGI staff are being provided a general ComStar advisory against non-essential travel through that segment of space. We will continue to serve and provide for our customers, fans, and concerned citizens alike here on our official forums as well as with our visits to OutreachHPG.




Addendum: Well, this got some people's attention and even woke up a few inactives!

Indeed, r/mwo had around 4000 subscribers...While many have changed hubs with the change of it's moderation team and the removal it's moderation standards, in past months: Many others remain, and some have been painted as the targets of my messages in this thread. I'd like to take a moment to add an additional apology to those people: Whether they are an impassioned pilot who has never been intentionally abusive towards a staff member or another player, or whether they are a casual who has just stumbled into the crossfire.

To those people I would like to clarify where my frustrations lie...it is with individuals.

It is with those individuals who believe that negative feedback must exclusively be given with insult, and who demean those who try to provide critical constructive feedback without the urge to denigrate others. They may seem funny, but they ultimately aren't helping you or us when they replace legitimate feedback by brute forcing their way into each subject.

It is with those individuals who would declare that we do not communicate enough, and then either intentionally misquote staff by putting insults directed to the Community in our mouths, or downvote any links or information we provide to remove it from view. They aren't making prophet of a bleak future, they are attempting to fulfill it.

It is with those individuals who proclaim the need for freedom of speech and democracy when the moderators have addressed them for vulgar behavior, and yet happen to also run multiple accounts for the purpose of giving their voices more weight than any other player. Not only are they often shoving your individual and personal opinions further from our view to promote their own, but they have often tried to rally you against us each time we have quietly tried to bring them back to equal footing with other players.

It is with such individuals who see entertainment in manipulating others beyond the game. Those who have proudly admitted that they seek to waste the time of our Support or Dev staff or see the game burn. Such individuals are clearly not out to promote MechWarrior regardless of their attachment to past games.

Such things are upsetting: And I believe it should also upset those who who really consider themselves fans or simply out to better the game. The best news is there are numerous ways for fans to channel that anger into something positive in ways our team alone cannot. It is to keep talking, even in the face of those who would tell you to shut up. It is to report those who are abusive rather pretend it never happened. It is to respond to those who spread obvious half-truthes to give the actual word. Examples of all such behaviors have been demonstrated last night. I'm certainly not asking each player to shine sparkles and fandom on every thread, but simply to ignore their inhibition to post otherwise civil and constructive feedback.

To those who have provided feedback in the past and feel slighted by the fact that they were not directly responded to, or that their concerns were not addressed soon enough for their preference: I can only ask that you hold tight and keep your feedback handy. Please be ready to update it if relevant, and e-link it to us as needed as we make more of an active effort to take in concerns for the hot-topic subjects. Likewise, I appreciate the patience of those players who wait for their top concerns to appear in the pipeline.

Where, in the past, a retail paywall would allow staff to simply force such individuals out of context immediately with a banishment: The growth of social media and of freemium gaming means all games have had to adapt to such individuals.Nobody, be it a Doctor of Virtual Anthropology nor a "Fedora-wearing amateur" will be able to accomplish the job of speaking on behalf of the Community or the team if the players are being overrun and directed by such individuals as I have described before.

The individuals I have described to you before have been repeatedly addressed through private messages, support tickets and moderation and yet continue to spend the equivalent of a work week in attempts to harass and manipulate our team and players. To those players who are truly passionate and who can make a difference by speaking out with cool heads, I apologize once more for this matter, it's distraction from other feedback concerns, and any change in view of me it may have given you. I may indeed like to portay myself as an insane person, but it is said that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing multiple times and expecting different results. There will indeed be greater communication to all players just as much as there will be less priority and attention given to those toxic individuals. All we need is for you to keep talking or start talking. While my intent was to drive your activity to a safer place, it seems others have seen fit to portray it otherwise.

Thank you for sticking by and have a good day. :)

#2 Reno Blade

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:23 AM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:


Seyla !

#3 Roadbeer

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:27 AM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

<snip>

That's all very nice, however...

Quote


"We want a great game. PGI wants a great game. We're all on the same side."
This. We may all have different opinions on how to run a game. Or how designs should change.
But on that very note I can only offer the words of wisdom -purportedly- from another well-regarded developer: https://fbcdn-sphoto..._66320409_n.png
Admittedly, we do more facepalming than laughing, because we do want to try to explain to players why certain ideas just won't work, rather than leaving them in the dark. Some will, however, just as often tell us that the sky is red, simply because we stated it was blue.

is what I'm referring to. The statement, taken in context with the image, implies that "feedback" however absurd, and regardless of the vehicle used, is openly mocked/"faceplamed" at the offices. I don't doubt this happens, but it should NEVER be known to your CUSTOMERS that this happens.
It doesn't matter how obscure the vehicle used was to convey the message, the message is out in the universe that "PGI mocks it's customers". Whether it considers them customers anymore or not, everyone is a potential customer, no matter how disgruntled or disenfranchised, as one would hope it was in the companies interest to win them back. I'm the perfect example of this as I do *not* reddit, unless something like the event the other night FORCES me to use it. However, I discovered YOUR quote via Twitter.

The continued marginalization of that vehicle, and the mwomercs forum, only continues to foster the view that PGI views it's customers with contempt, regardless of if that opinion is real or imagined.

#4 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

View PostRoadbeer, on 26 May 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

-snip-


How about we take in the context of the thread too. The OP was in a r/mwo thread called "A Call to Reason"

Quote

I can't believe how much bile the fan base seems to have.
One of my favorite examples of the ongoing community insanity was the furor over 3rd person view. Remember how we thought that would be the end of days?
Let's try not to drown them in fury every time they do or say anything. Accusations and insults are at best a waste of time, and at worst counterproductive. I've got my list gripes (e.g. UI 2.0 sucks) too, but it's hard to get any real dialog with all the "cash grab" and "Russ lies" spam.
We want a great game. PGI wants a great game. We're all on the same side.


That OP was downvoted 23 times for asking r/mwo to be more constructive. I'm more than willing to take ideas and feedback from constructive outlets of the Community, but r/mwo has proven itself to have residents who often either have unmanageably wild expectations or a desire to simply oppose anything we stand for, even if it means flipping opinions or simply poisoning the well and calling us liars, whenever we change course or adapt to better meet expectations.

#5 Imperius

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:51 AM

I just wanted to be able to play with my friends, how ever many that are on at the time 2-12... You had my full support till this fiasco and since then any feedback I do give seems to go un-noticed or scuffed off with jokes (while you may think it's playful, it just shows a huge lack of respect). Unless it's about someone making a purchase and like clockwork it's retweeted and favorited. A lot of my complaints are not my own opinion but a collective of my peers who I don't see anymore on the weekends since the announcement of groups are the "worthless minority" my merc unit is pretty much a ghost town the only thing we were holding on to is group play... We still can kinda do it via sync dropping, but it seems to make us vs each other most of the time.

Then there is Paul... My biggest question to him he won't answer because he never checks twitter unless Russ tags him is. "How can you balance a game that you don't play?" Numbers aren't everything but if he does go by the numbers then what is the percentage of mech being used that have JJ?

I have been supportive of most decisions of PGI I'm flamed for it sometimes targeted in games now because of it.
I have never asked or threated a refund, but I have suggested I will stop spending money on services that don't allow me to play with my friends in a "balanced" environment. After all balance seems to be the reason I can't play with them yet unless you take a jump snipper with 2xPPC AC5 you can expect to be at a disadvantage in most drops.

Here is a big statement to think over.

If you keep ignoring the so called vocal minority (the people that care) one minority at a time. Eventually you're going to be left with nothing.

Edited by Imperius, 26 May 2014 - 09:02 AM.


#6 Roadbeer

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:53 AM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:


How about we take in the context of the thread too. The OP was in a r/mwo thread called "A Call to Reason"


That OP was downvoted 23 times for asking r/mwo to be more constructive. I'm more than willing to take ideas and feedback from constructive outlets of the Community, but r/mwo has proven itself to have residents who often either have unmanageably wild expectations or a desire to simply oppose anything we stand for, even if it means flipping opinions or simply poisoning the well and calling us liars whenever we change course or adapt.

Is PGI really that thin-skinned?
I generated more "likes" mocking the fact that a faction pride tournament is solo only, than the announcement for the tournament did. So by that logic,the mwomercs forum is equally mockworthy and should be marginalized as well. Wait, never mind, that's already a well known fact.

The takeaway is, you never, NEVER, let your customers know you make fun of them. EVER.

Especially when it's within a couple hours of the company's President acknowledging that a previous mockage of the playerbase, the infamous "Island" comment had blown up in his face.

Whatever, this place is hopeless

#7 LakeDaemon

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:03 AM

What the devs are facepalming is the absolute fatalistic, vitriolic hate machine on the forums. There are mature ways to provide critical feedback and show disapproval but the forums have generally become a dog pit of hyperbolic negativity that perpetuates more negativity and disinformation.

However, that is to be expected - this is online gaming. Also PGI chose this dev model.. its exposed to player sentiment as they develop it. I do not envy Niko's task. More and better communication is right path.

Edit: Definitely, there were mistakes made and improvements are sorely needed. Player fatigue is real and cannot be dismissed. When devs change the game that essentially prevents players from dropping together, that's huge. When multi hundred dollar packages are being hyped for a game that still has a pre-release amount of playable content, that's huge -cashing in on fan good faith.

The vision for MWO needs to be refreshed to the players. The dev model needs to be reexplained.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 26 May 2014 - 09:24 AM.


#8 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:06 AM

View PostRoadbeer, on 26 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Is PGI really that thin-skinned?


Well the point might be that we aren't thin-skinned. In one particular environment where some will take just about any opportunity to take pot-shots and deride us, we will indeed brush that off our shoulders. Not simply because they are exemplifying the kinds of behavior we moderate against on our forums/game to begin with, thus suggesting that we don't want nor need customers who intend to act in such a manner, but also because if we do try to please everybody with everything at once, especially those who simply have an axe to grind against us: We won't have much of a focused/fun game in the end so much as an over-ambitious/diluted monstrosity.

#9 Gorgo7

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:23 AM

View PostRoadbeer, on 26 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Is PGI really that thin-skinned?
I generated more "likes" mocking the fact that a faction pride tournament is solo only, than the announcement for the tournament did. So by that logic,the mwomercs forum is equally mockworthy and should be marginalized as well. Wait, never mind, that's already a well known fact.

The takeaway is, you never, NEVER, let your customers know you make fun of them. EVER.

Especially when it's within a couple hours of the company's President acknowledging that a previous mockage of the playerbase, the infamous "Island" comment had blown up in his face.

Whatever, this place is hopeless

Oh Roadbeer... have you considered that there is no way to dislike your posts?

It is clear that disrupting and arguing is all you are really here to do.

Why don't you post some tactics? How about a great score you pulled off the other day? A funny incident?
Join the community and encourage new players? Instead, all I read is that you have been let down mightily and feel hard done by. Your posts overflow with indignation and high ideals for people that your own posts lack.

Suck it up.

#10 Imperius

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:38 AM

View PostGorgo7, on 26 May 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh Roadbeer... have you considered that there is no way to dislike your posts?

It is clear that disrupting and arguing is all you are really here to do.

Why don't you post some tactics? How about a great score you pulled off the other day? A funny incident?
Join the community and encourage new players? Instead, all I read is that you have been let down mightily and feel hard done by. Your posts overflow with indignation and high ideals for people that your own posts lack.

Suck it up.

We were always defending PGI... We were know as the Great White Knights. Now we are White Knights turned Gray according to how things have been handled since Dec 2013.

People I know that have lost hope

Roadbeer
Sandpit
Iqfish
Deathlike
Imperius
Ipox
pBiggz (most of the Remnant) We hardly play now
.... I could keep going but you get the point.

Spent many hours discussing balance and posting feedback to always be treated like this...
Posted Image

You all have no idea about game balance you're not a developer...(EDIT: This is the attitude I feel receive when I talk about balance.)

Edited by Imperius, 26 May 2014 - 09:57 AM.


#11 Gorgo7

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:56 AM

Really? I play everyday, in all weight classes for a little over a year. I have a well developed sense of game balance.
This game has never been so well balanced as it is now.
Matchmaking is problematic but not broken like people would have you believe. Basically, players have good games and bad games. Sometimes there is synergy sometimes not.
CW, yep! Sure would be great! It is coming. Just not tomorrow. Check back later.
If PGI is unable to hold a player base then they will lose the game to Microsoft and it will be reborn another day.
No biggie.

Change is continuing and will be for the foreseeable

View PostImperius, on 26 May 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

We were always defending PGI... We were know as the Great White Knights. Now we are White Knights turned Gray according to how things have been handled since Dec 2013.

People I know that have lost hope

Roadbeer
Sandpit
Iqfish
Deathlike
Imperius
Ipox
pBiggz (most of the Remnant) We hardly play now
.... I could keep going but you get the point.

Spent many hours discussing balance and posting feedback to always be treated like this...
Posted Image

You all have no idea about game balance you're not a developer...


#12 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:00 AM

View PostImperius, on 26 May 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

-snip-


I find all too often that players assign definitions to themselves and one another as one typically sees in retail games where development is complete and pretty much the only thing to talk about for development is gameplay balance. In traditional settings we might expect to see borders between competitors, role-players, jokers and trolls. These lines are not so clear cut now.

In an on-going development, it seems to play out, at least from my perspective, more like the following of a television series...

You have those who follow every episode ritually as it airs, those who wait for the season to end to grab the box set, those who pre-order the box-set, and perhaps even a handful who will get mad about spoilers and refuse to put any time in until production ends. You have those who will only watch for free at their leisure without ads, and those who will gladly acquire any swag they can to support the producers.

You have those who love the series, even the parts that make them mad or sad. And those who just get mad when we don't write-off half of the people on set/stage. There are those who expect us to follow the book and those who want to see us take a creative spin appropriate for the medium.

Some will tweet about us all night and weekend, others will browse the forums, and many just entertain themselves with the game before going about their day.

All too often there are those who get frustrated when a new episode comes on a personally busy day, and those who arrange every other Tuesday into their schedule as Patch Night.

And yes, sadly, we even get a few of those who will make weird personal RL threats against us. Thankfully this is offset by others asking us jubilantly and proudly to carry their Mech babies or to curse them with Urbanmechs.

It's a diverse crowd and a brave new world. I wish I could say it's going to be perfect everytime: We do have to maintain a utilitarian balance to the various goals for entertaining the community.

#13 Onlystolen

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:49 PM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:


Well the point might be that we aren't thin-skinned. In one particular environment where some will take just about any opportunity to take pot-shots and deride us, we will indeed brush that off our shoulders. Not simply because they are exemplifying the kinds of behavior we moderate against on our forums/game to begin with, thus suggesting that we don't want nor need customers who intend to act in such a manner, but also because if we do try to please everybody with everything at once, especially those who simply have an axe to grind against us: We won't have much of a focused/fun game in the end so much as an over-ambitious/diluted monstrosity.


Dont try to change the subject and turn yourself into the Victim.

Bottom line
NEVER INSULT YOUR CUSTOMERS.


Thats like customer service 101, What would happen if a news site or a reviewer like Zero Punctuation got a hold of that.

Edited by Onlystolen, 26 May 2014 - 12:57 PM.


#14 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:30 PM

View PostOnlystolen, on 26 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

-snip-


While I would never go out of my way to insult a legitimate customer on an official channel. As mentioned, r/mwo is neither official nor does it represent our desired nor actual customer base anymore. The inhabitants there have been free to trash on our game, fans, customers, players and staff alike for several months now. To draw from a previous response in this thread, I certainly hope they aren't too thin-skinned, lest they prove my point for me as they seem to already have done an exemplary job of. Actual players who happen to be redditors are again advised to take their constructive, informative and fun MWO discussions to r/OutreachHPG instead of the former sub-reddit.

#15 Shar Wolf

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:36 PM

Ironic when the response from PGI is the same as the Trolls have been giving us for months now isn't it?

Isn't hypocrisy fun!

#16 Onlystolen

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:37 PM

Sqwak

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:


While I would never go out of my way to insult a legitimate customer on an official channel. As mentioned, r/mwo is neither official nor does it represent our desired nor actual customer base anymore. The inhabitants there have been free to trash on our game, fans, customers, players and staff alike for several months now. To draw from a previous response in this thread, I certainly hope they aren't too thin-skinned, lest they prove my point for me as they seem to already have done an exemplary job of. Actual players who happen to be redditors are again advised to take their MWO enjoyment to r/OutreachHPG instead of the former sub-reddit.


Sqwak


Uh.. last time i checked all customers past present and future are "legitimate customers". Also when a representative from a company makes a statement in a public forum/board it is still an official statement of the company reflecting their opinion on such matter.

Edited by Onlystolen, 26 May 2014 - 01:41 PM.


#17 Roadbeer

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:42 PM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:


While I would never go out of my way to insult a legitimate customer on an official channel. As mentioned, r/mwo is neither official nor does it represent our desired nor actual customer base anymore. The inhabitants there have been free to trash on our game, fans, customers, players and staff alike for several months now. To draw from a previous response in this thread, I certainly hope they aren't too thin-skinned, lest they prove my point for me as they seem to already have done an exemplary job of. Actual players who happen to be redditors are again advised to take their constructive, informative and fun MWO discussions to r/OutreachHPG instead of the former sub-reddit.


And from the volcanic depths, a new "island" is formed

WTG "New Era"

#18 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:51 PM

View PostOnlystolen, on 26 May 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Uh.. last time i checked all customers past present and future are "legitimate customers". Also when a representative from a company makes a statement in a public forum/board it is still an official statement of the company reflecting their opinion on such matter.


The line is not with past present or future customers, but with those who have been banned from our services due to abusive behavior and choose to circumvent moderation through alternate accounts, etc... versus those, like yourself, who have remained constructive even when giving negative feedback.

As mentioned, r/mwo has become an echo-chamber for the former group of people, and we are going to cut our losses and not waste valuable time trying to appease those people who have already proven themselves unable or unwilling to hold themselves to basic standards of conduct for an online game or forum.

#19 Onlystolen

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:58 PM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:


The line is not with past present or future customers, but with those who have been banned from our services due to abusive behavior and choose to circumvent moderation through alternate accounts, etc... versus those, like yourself, who remain constructive even when giving negative feedback.

As mentioned, r/mwo has become an echo-chamber for the former group of people, and we are going to cut our losses and not waste valuable time trying to appease those people who have already proven themselves unable or unwilling to hold themselves to basic standards of conduct for an online game or forum.


If that is the case why not be the bigger man (company) and just not acknowledge them? Bringing yourself down to their level to insult them insults the whole community. Directly or indirectly "basic standards" are standards that must be met on all levels

#20 Nikolai Lubkiewicz

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 02:43 PM

View PostOnlystolen, on 26 May 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

If that is the case why not be the bigger man (company) and just not acknowledge them? Bringing yourself down to their level to insult them insults the whole community. Directly or indirectly "basic standards" are standards that must be met on all levels


When dealing with a segment of people who thrive on toxicity: Controversy itself is often the best tool to get them to listen up and even get others pointed in your direction. r/mwo inhabitants may include a few individuals hellbent on down-vote bombing or misquoting anything useful we have to say, but they will directly quote and thus link people towards my profile for something they perceive as controversial, and lead those same people to this very discussion where the acknowledgements have been made earlier with regard to that subreddit.

Spoiler






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