349 replies to this topic

[m]

You guys forgot the last match. All those others were literally garbage for me lol.

[Alaskan Nobody]

m, on 16 October 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

You guys forgot the last match. All those others were literally garbage for me lol.

Hadn't even realized I forgot that!
Nephew showed up at the door right about then, so I got distracted.

Edit: that one was post-Nova test though.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 16 October 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[m]

Shar Wolf, on 16 October 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hadn't even realized I forgot that!
Nephew showed up at the door right about then, so I got distracted.

Edit: that one was post-Nova test though.

They were also my first matches of the day as well lol.

[Tesunie]

Shar Wolf, on 16 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

TK'd!

Shot through the back by a teammate.

I BLAME LILY! Trying to mess up your test results... No doubt...

Calamus, on 16 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

And the dead horse is flogged for at least another two pages. You all need some sunshine. Get out and play with the neighbourhood kids.

Actually, the last few pages have been rather interesting (and nice) to read through...

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 16 October 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I BLAME LILY! Trying to mess up your test results... No doubt...

Naw - it was quad AC/5 to the rear.

Not from a Nova.

[Dakkaface]

Lily from animove, on 16 October 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Can I please drop the entire rest of my MWO life with you? because usually when i go group queue i see people like lords, and that CSJ tagged gyus they play with. and there Nova is unfun and hard, It feels like WO; why do I survive all these shots. And I tell you would I have piloted a TW we eould have won that match ^^

I think this is highlighting the fundamental disconnect in communication we're having with you on this issue.

If you're dropping against Lords, SJR, and the tippy top of the competitive scene, anything that isn't part of the ultra-competitive meta is going to feel like total garbage. In that case, no, you should never take the Nova because the SCR/TBR/DWF is the meta and coordinated meta builds are death on legs. But what you're experiencing in these drops with Shar - the Nova kicking out very good damage numbers, not being terribly survivable but more than able to contribute to the fight and not dying to coordinated alphas - that's what the rest of us 'average-to-good' pilots experience when we drop in the Nova.

[That Dawg]

Dakkaface, on 16 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I think this is highlighting the fundamental disconnect in communication we're having with you on this issue.

//Nova kicking out very good damage numbers, not being terribly survivable but more than able to contribute to the fight
//the rest of us 'average-to-good' pilots experience when we drop in the Nova.

yes. that.

now die thread die!!!

[Lily from animove]

Dakkaface, on 16 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I think this is highlighting the fundamental disconnect in communication we're having with you on this issue. If you're dropping against Lords, SJR, and the tippy top of the competitive scene, anything that isn't part of the ultra-competitive meta is going to feel like total garbage. In that case, no, you should never take the Nova because the SCR/TBR/DWF is the meta and coordinated meta builds are death on legs. But what you're experiencing in these drops with Shar - the Nova kicking out very good damage numbers, not being terribly survivable but more than able to contribute to the fight and not dying to coordinated alphas - that's what the rest of us 'average-to-good' pilots experience when we drop in the Nova.

Well I tried often enough (thats where I started to repeat myself so often) to state that I measure the place of the Nova by competitive means, and thats when It has to compare its place amongts other mechs.
And look at the Direwolfs in out or the opponent team, they were really not that good at all. So many Direwolfs scoring below 400 damage, that is actually bad piloting tbh. Look at Match 9 this is how Direwolfs are piloted (Ours and theirs). And when you have the majority of your matches with and vs pilots of that skills filling DW's and TW's then your share in damage sinks quite quickly. So the majority of all the matches turning out so well was defined by mostly medicore opponents.

btw how would you guys rate that build? There is no heatmanagement anymore, its just hot all the time xD

Another interesting Screen:



Not interesting because I did best, interesting because of things I said previously, like circadas being quite as good as Novas and possibly better. Look at Unschuldslamm's result. Fairly even for a medium IS mech with only 4 E hardpoints.
From the background you can see this is tourmaline, so a hot map, and hell the above posted build is what my NVA Prime(I) is.
Furthermore interesting because this match was done during the lance challange 2. Which balanced many things way better: like true lances instead of massively overusage of assaults and heavies. everoyne came in 1/1/1/1. and further no direwhales and Timberwolfes who are even if beatable the probably strongest mechs out there. But they bring in very much imbalance making specific mechs useless withing the competitive surrounding.
And you see, the match was a close one taking quite a long time. I enjoyed lance challange 2 a lot, because there was more balance by the way the challange was designed and people were softly forced into 1/1/1/1 per lance.

And now we can come back to the question of someone asking "Do you still compare a Nova with a Timberwolf" Then the answer is YES, because without 4/4/4/4 restrictions why should I not bring a TW and use a Nova? Why should I bring anything that is worse than anything else? I would in competitive surroundings have no reason to do so at all. Balance is to make everything equally appeaeling and rewarding. Which with the freedom of total choice is not given.

Tell, me how is weight distribution in these 3 matchups.


I took these screens one evening to see how much 4/4/4/4 is left in MWO. It's not much. There is nothing preventing you to bring the better mech over the others, not even waiting time, its often not much longer than bringing the underrated classes.

So the first balance that needs to be done is creating a restrictive ressource, like tonnage or 4/4/4/4. With CW we will get this with the dropship. That is probably a good thing. With only 4/4/4/4 as restriction we will still see the upper tonnaged mechs of each class, so class imbalance will happen because we have not much balance between the mechs.

So lets cut it down again, and maybe you agree or not:
Judging a mechs usability objectively is involving the following factors:

- its loadout possibilities
- his characetristics (mount points, hitboxes JJ-yes now)
- Armor
- Weapon podspace
- the pilot
- the surroundings mostly definced by the other pilots.

did I forgot something? please tell me if so.

Loadout
By the loadout the Nova has quite some ok'ish share. It has enough E hardpoints to make use of the good lcanners E weapons. for proper B equipment we lack free tonnage which is bound to JJ's and fixed DHS that a B loaded Nova doesn't needs. No missile hardpoints, we cna not make any use of those juicy SMR's or the lazy LRM "let me stay behind in safety lodout".

so loadout sided I would rate the Nova as in the middle. you cna make decent E laodouts.

The characteristics

Lowest tier mech, too wide, all hardpoints are low slung, which is not an advantage. They are all in the arms, which in some situations is ok, when you need very extreme aim angles. But this is already countered by being very quickly useless when literally being "disarmed" Can not hide the CT, even if your turn your Torso as far as you can. One of the slowest mediums in the medium field, probably THE slowest depending on how IS pilots want to gimp their speed.

I don't think any other medium is at such a bad rating by his characteristics. if you think different, tell me which one and why? But also consider thequirks the IS mechs have, which are also nearly all positives.

Armor
since armor is class bound its here like all the others, a bit above the mechs havign less tonnage, because those come.naturally with less armor.

Weapon Podspace
below mid tier, simply because the other medium mechs do have the same or more (dependign on XL favour or not) I already made that comparison somwhere here in the endless thread.

short break. So you see if you agree with me. Why I considered the Nova as probably the worst tier mech from all mediums, it has defined downsides making it below the others by not having significant upsides. And in the categories without downsides to the other mediums it just average. Thats also why in competitive surroundings the Nova is a dead mech. Because there is no special strenght you can make use of it, or even more important to make a compettive use of it. (Overheating faster with just a lot more lasers does not count ).

the Pilot and the surroundings:

This is the point why I invited you to play that same Nova loadout together. I actually expected to face the more difficult opponents that I usually have to face. But now we had the other guys.
So this was a bit the mean trick where I wanted you to get my point of view by dragging you into "my world". Unfortunatelky this backfired (damn karma) and dragged me into "your world"
So yes if the surrounding is right the Nova is not a useless mech. But what is the point at where we can obectively judge the Nova? At variying unreliable human difference? Not really. Objectively would be the 4 categories above the pilots. Otherwise we urgently should buff Direwolfs, because when I look at the Direwolfs we had with us and against us, the majority of them were not able to reach our Damage in a twice as heavy mech.

And why I personally described the Nova a useless is not only the objectively judged things above, its simply the fact that the Nova distinguishes itself from the other mechs by the crazy amount of E hardpoints available. If one doesn't makes use of that, why should one not use a SC or any IS mech being able to use up to 6? Ok then the wording'useless' is maybe not right and should be redone by me into 'pointless' because many people use builds the Storcrow can do and could do better by what it is. Or even a Circada would be bale to do them (better). So people start to disguise circadas and Stormcrows builds into all the Disadvantages of the Nova chassis. Thats the point where I told people, if you can make this build work in a Nova, you would be even better in the other mediums. Then people told me I should not complain because I probably do not know how to pilot the Nova right. I do know how to pilot the Nova, Shar has proofen he does know this too. But I still claim the other mediums can be piloted better than the Nova because they are objectively better. I was not even mean at this time, because I could constantly have replied: "If you can not Score out of an IS mech what you can Score out of an Nova, you are piloting the IS mech wrong." Because the same pilot should with a better tool get better results.

So when a game ends and you all want to judge a mech and how it did, please don't forget to involve the judgement of the other pilots skills. Yor mech is not doind great if the opposite polits do bad. Direwolves with below 400dmg are bad piloted, above that they are average, above 600 they are well piloted, really good pilots pull those 800 regulary. Match 9 had decent DW pilots. That is by my observations how I judge Direwolf pilots. And when I score (unexpected) big and stuff I first check: were my Opps decent or just not good. Because scoring big by clubbing seals doesn't makes a strong man, wrestling with the walruß and doing only average is probably more skill than that. Thats why I hardly take people serious who show is big score big dmg screens where they black out the other pilots names, units, mechs used and probably their damage done. Because then we do not know if they clubbed seals or truly wrestled amonst some walrus.

Playing with you Shar yesterday was great, the most amazing experience yesterday were indeed the Direwolves. I serveral times ran into the view of direwolves think: "Fu** fail step I'm done" Since this is what I am used to experience when I normally play Nova. But yesterday those Direwolfes often just didn't notices me on a bright map in a black painted mech right 300m in front of them (big camo skillz ).

I hope we can make more of these sessions probably with a 2 PPC adder, a laser vomit SCR, and also a 2 PPC SCR.

Spoiler

I recorded some stuff, but I derped that a lot. originally the recording software had F12 as record button which interferred with the steam Screenshot shortcut so I palced it on + which unfortnatetly is also my bound Airstrike. But I didn't notices that because the EN keyboard does not show that in the MWO settings as. This was leading to accidently airstriking at the beginnign of matches (I guess those strange early 3 Strikes that I ate across all matches were my own xD). And if I started recording as long as Airstrike was not available I often ended the recording die to triggering Airstrike. This happened without me noticing it because I have airstrike bound to a mousebutton from which I didn't knew anymore what keyboard key it was related to. /derp

tl:dr: Nova is not useless withitn specific skill ranks, but not working in competition.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 October 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Sandtiger]

Lily from animove, on 16 October 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Those upper mounted guns seem not to be stock.

You can see those missiles coming around the corner, and have time to charge your Gauss Rifle ~Grins.

[Sandtiger]

Calamus, on 16 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

And the dead horse is flogged for at least another two pages. You all need some sunshine. Get out and play with the neighbourhood kids.

Actually, I loved how they were putting each other's theories to the test. I think they both made excellent points. If you don't like the subject, I advise you to stop reading, instead of complaining. Or better yet, join the discussion with your own insights. I always like new perspectives. =]

Edit: Actually, I didn't need to say actually twice, actually. =]

Edited by Sandtiger, 17 October 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sandtiger, on 17 October 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

You can see those missiles coming around the corner, and have time to charge your Gauss Rifle ~Grins.

No one aint time to charge a gauss, we are always prepared with a big Splash damage ERPPC's

[Sandtiger]

Lily from animove, on 17 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

No one aint time to charge a gauss, we are always prepared with a big Splash damage ERPPC's

But it only takes a few seconds, and the range is...incredible. ~Grins Wickedly

[Lily from animove]

good news, I have not screwed that many records at all, SO we have 8 matches I think (but one was one we didn't counted) + the extra round after the first match.

Im currently converting them into a youtube friendly size and uploading them. The first one is already finished

[Alaskan Nobody]

Lily from animove, on 17 October 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

good news, I have not screwed that many records at all, SO we have 8 matches I think (but one was one we didn't counted) + the extra round after the first match.

Should have 10 + the two we didnt count.

[Lily from animove]

Shar Wolf, on 17 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Should have 10 + the two we didnt count.

but as said I had issues with messing the recording softwares start shortcut being the same as arty, which caused some matches to start later (you can see this in the alpine vid) and some mactehs to end suddenly without showing anything. Thats why we have some matches missing. I thought, ok, lemme switch the button to "Ä" whcih si also the Alphastrike button Thats why torumaline vid starst with alserfire. SO i can be happy that I didn't had 12 CERML that would have cooked me instant.

unfortunately that failmatch where i couldn't shoot down the UAV is not recorded :/ I wanted to have this recorderd and but it in the UAV topic and why its important to not fail shooting down an UAV:

[Alaskan Nobody]

I'm not overly worried about it - I tend to stay off Youtube (watching or posting)

[Lily from animove]

ok playlist is up, good night everyone.

[Bigbacon]

I went back to trying 12SL again today with a targeting computer 4 + lvl 5 SL Range. Get 173m so close to the original clan launch range, 20DHS

it is actually still pretty do-able. Had 4 kills, 8 assists and like 700 damage or something.

[Aiden Skye]

I like the nova, it's pretty fun and I think it looks kind of cool with its low profile. I have had some amazing matches in the nova running 8ML or 4MPL and 4MG. However this mech is made of paper. Anyone looks at you ur gonna be losing parts fast...it just cannot take any thing related to a beating. I usually have to hide behind a direwolf and hope he draws all the fire.

To complicate things even more its usable weight doesn't leave a lot of room for a lot of configs + heatsinks. And it's the same speed as a clan heavy. Why would I take a nova over my timberwolf unless all heavy spots are filled on my group? What is the advantage of the nova?

I just wish the nova had more to separate it.

[Motörhead]

The challenge shows once again it's one of the worse performing chassis, the fix is quite easy too, removing the fixed equipment, or if they really want to keep the free tonnage the same, remove the fixed JJs and get the engine rating up.

This is one of the few mechs I put my eyes on and then abandon after having basiced the first.

I wasn't even perfoming so bad, I had a decent 2.0 K/D ratio, even in a bad 0,71 win/loss ratio (this mech just can't carry any team) and matches like this :



Was just asking myself...why should I pilot this?And no aswers came to my mind...as for now I have my nova-S taking dust alone in his mechbay.

Edited by fx8320, 27 October 2014 - 02:37 AM.