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Joystick Absolute Input?


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#1 Napoleon_Blownapart

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

the june tech update mentions joysticks changing to absolute input is this zero order like the mouse? what does it mean?

#2 Firelizard

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:32 AM

Hmmm, zero-order control with a force sensing stick.... I may need to dust off my X65 if this comes to pass.

Anywho, zero-order is direct proportion. If the stick is deflected half way to the right, then a theoretical mouse cursor tied to the stick would move half way to the right of the screen from center-line.

EDIT: Aaaand I just said what you already know. Forgive me, no caffeine. But it does sound like we would be getting a zero-order type control method the way it is described. This is probably one of the few places zero-order joystick control would work, due to the fact that mech torsos and arms have definite pitch and yaw limits relative to the legs.

Edited by Firelizard, 25 June 2014 - 08:38 AM.


#3 Foust

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:39 AM

I hereby invoke Loc Nar, speaker of the joysticks. ;)

It won't be "zero-order" per say, but close. Far better than we have now, and should allow for a wider array of "useable" sticks.

I can't wait to try it out and provide feedback.

#4 Loc Nar

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:38 PM

Quote

Hmmm, zero-order control with a force sensing stick.... I may need to dust off my X65 if this comes to pass.


Zero-order is positional, not proportional in nature, and the X65 is 100% static (it does not move). Zero-order requires positional input to directly generate positional output, which is what defines it as a scheme. Absolute inputs are 100% irrelevant to FS sticks, but 100% necessary for zero-order (joystick) control.


Quote

I hereby invoke Loc Nar, speaker of the joysticks. :wub:

It won't be "zero-order" per say, but close. Far better than we have now, and should allow for a wider array of "useable" sticks.


I saw the Loc Nar batsignal and got here as quick as I could.

A joystick using absolute inputs is operating in zero-order, very similar to a mouse yes, but not exactly the same although both are definitely zero-order control. A joystick is an absolute device, so it is zero-order absolute. This operates differently than zero-order relative like a mouse.

Just how good un-modded sticks will be for this will be another story, since a spring centering gimbal which is engineered to facilitate the velocity/accleration commands is the enemy of positional control... I mean, can you imagine if your mouse was rubber-banded to the center of it's pad where it also has to navigate a huge crater? :P

What does it mean OP asks? It means it will be easier and more worthwhile to modify a joystick to use with this game, and even playable to a degree with regular unmodded sticks.

#5 Napoleon_Blownapart

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:39 AM

i have been playing for a year with a tflightx hotas,then a t16000m with just the hotas.when this is implemented would it matter what usb slot you use?would usb3 be better than usb2?

#6 Loc Nar

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:11 AM

Shouldn't really matter which USB you use for T16000, but if you have a choice go with USB2.0 since it has no known side effects and joysticks don't generate anywhere near their max bandwidth and there is nothing to gain with 3.0. I recommend 2.0 cause USB3.0 does not work with a Warthog for some functions, although I think T16000M is unaffected. I always eliminate variables whenever possible though.

Ironically if you use a T16000M you have one of only 3 sticks (Warty, Cougar, T16000) that has been able to use absolute inputs and much much more all along. TARGET is better support than you could ever expect in any game, although native absolute will be higher resolution than TARGET's emulator and will not have negative effects on TrackIR...

#7 Foust

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:16 AM

View PostGorantir, on 26 June 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

i have been playing for a year with a tflightx hotas,then a t16000m with just the hotas.when this is implemented would it matter what usb slot you use?would usb3 be better than usb2?


This change will have zero dependency on which usb port you use.

If you have been playing joystick to aim under the current joystick implementation without the aide of third party mouse emulation, then you will see a drastic change in behavior.

I think there will be the option to pick retaliative or absolute modes on the stick. So if your comfortable with how it controls now (NO idea how you manage it) then there won't be a change.

View PostLoc Nar, on 25 June 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:


A joystick using absolute inputs is operating in zero-order, very similar to a mouse yes, but not exactly the same although both are definitely zero-order control. A joystick is an absolute device, so it is zero-order absolute. This operates differently than zero-order relative like a mouse.

Just how good un-modded sticks will be for this will be another story, since a spring centering gimbal which is engineered to facilitate the velocity/accleration commands is the enemy of positional control...


I like having the centering. Right now my sticks gimbal is default, so I have a brighter outlook on the future of available sticks. (Not that I am looking to replace my T16000M)

View PostLoc Nar, on 26 June 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

TARGET is better support than you could ever expect in any game, although native absolute will be higher resolution than TARGET's emulator and will not have negative effects on TrackIR...


rabble rabble rabble can't use open source solutions rabble rabble rabble

#8 Napoleon_Blownapart

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:40 AM

i have the target software but when i tried to use it my hat button wouldnt register, i tried assigning letters to the positions or assigning positions in the game options but couldnt.i dont think ive tried in a while (pre ui2) ill have to look at it again, thanks guys.

#9 Airic Gryphon

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:10 PM

Hi Loc Nar,

I just read the anouncment about absolute joystick inputs and wanted to know if I was understanding them correctly.

Currently if I want to pitch my torso up say 15 degrees, I have to pull back on the js untill the torso is in that position then center the js to keep the torso there.

With absolute input I would pull back on the js till the torso is pitched up 15 degrees then hold the js in that position. When I center the js the torso pitch will return to center. Is that correct?

#10 Loc Nar

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:58 AM

View PostAiric Gryphon, on 26 June 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

Hi Loc Nar,

I just read the anouncment about absolute joystick inputs and wanted to know if I was understanding them correctly.

Currently if I want to pitch my torso up say 15 degrees, I have to pull back on the js untill the torso is in that position then center the js to keep the torso there.

With absolute input I would pull back on the js till the torso is pitched up 15 degrees then hold the js in that position. When I center the js the torso pitch will return to center. Is that correct?


Absolutely! :)

#11 Father Bill

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:29 AM

View PostLoc Nar, on 27 June 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:


Absolutely! :)


Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! Hot dog, I can't wait to use it!

#12 Tyler Durden

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 04:48 PM

Hey guys, I have been following your discussion and I'm very interested in this as I'm a joystick user as well. I updated my user.cfg since the patch today and found the control to be unplayable. The target reticle moves too fast in any direction and is made more difficult to control due to the nature of the joystick's nature to return to center.

Has anyone else tried this new setting and made it playable?

#13 evilC

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:19 AM

I don't know of anybody that got it usable.
There is a huge deadzone and the sensitivity curves have been poorly programmed - you cannot full twist with sensitivity at lowest, so clearly they are not applying a sensitivity curve properly, they are just amplifying.
Either that or when they apply the deadzone, they do not remap the remainder of the joystick movement to the full range of motion.
Also, if you add cl_joystick_absolute_inputs=1 to your user.cfg, mouse becomes unusable.





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