220 replies to this topic

[Hawker]

canon vs. balance... balance has to win.

We don't know if clan tech will ever become available to players, but if it does, then it has to be available to all equally. Arguing based on fluff, canon, or whatever you want to call it is nonsense. There is a difference between game play and what the books depict.

The only other solution is to make separate queues as I stated earlier, but that probably isn't going to be a good idea.

[Bloody Moon]

You guys argue too much about the stats on the weapons.
When the clans arrive i'll just take my tea cup to humiliate ppl with fancy toys.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 22 June 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[CCC Dober]

@Hawk
You make it sound like both are mutually exclusive in this game. They are not and if you read a bit up on the exodus you will see the link between the IS and the Clans. Comstar's hoarded arsenal represents that link to the 'golden age'.

[manny082]

i think limited market availability could work so that clan tech is a rare commodity so it makes that ERPPC alot more valuable in the long run

[The Basilisk]

Since Clans are still to be appearing in the inner sphere this question is irrelevant.
And when they appear clan tech will be salvage and therefore a legitime upgrade to anny mech.

[Strum Wealh]

Personally, I would like to see only very limited "cross-teching".

More specifically:
1.) Even if Clan equipment is captured/salvaged, it cannot be installed through the common MechLab. To accomplish that, players would (at least, initially) have to go to only certain tech-savvy groups/facilities (such as Battle Magic on Outreach for Mercs and Lone Wolves, the NAIS for FedSunners, and equivalent facilities for the other Houses).
2.) Clan equipment should be extremely expensive to maintain and repair, and only serviceable by the above-mentioned groups/facilities.
3.) IS weapons and equipment (especially those items for which the Clans have no canon versions, like C3 and Standard ACs and Heavy Gauss Rifles and so on) should be similarly difficult and expensive for Clan units to maintain and repair.

Your thoughts?

----------

Alternatively... suppose MWO were to re-balance Clan tech to be more in-line with the notions put forward by Randall Bills in PGI's interview:

Quote

MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

(emphasis mine)

Personally, I feel that this would lead to a much better balance between the tech bases (with Clan tech being generally lighter and more compact and producing more damage per salvo, but having equal (or only very slightly shorter) range and higher heat per salvo than comparable IS weapons).
Along the same lines, I would prefer to see Clan weapons have slightly-to-substantially longer recycle times than their IS counterparts.
IMO, this would tie in with Mr. Bills' comments about better emphasizing and reflecting the Clans' cultural values (specifically, the demonstration of an individual warrior's prowess and the waste-not-want-not mentality).

More practically, it reduces (but does not eliminate) the disparity in capabilities between Clan and IS tech, and instead places more emphasis on the disparity in ability and skill between Clan and IS pilots (which, IMO, should have been the focus all along), and as such makes "cross-teching" much less of the "obvious answer/strategy" than it had been in past BT/MW iterations.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 22 June 2012 - 05:48 AM.

[Teralitha]

Zso Sahal, on 21 June 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

So, I take it you're just going to pretend you haven't been called out on all the crap you've been spewing in this thread? Fine, I'll take your concession and we can let this thread die the death it is due. Cheers.

Nonsense, I still stand by everything Ive said as fact. Since I have experience with crossteching in a mechwarrior game, anything I have said trumps anything you have said, and thats why I dont answer your silly personal attacks.

[Teralitha]

Clan Warrior, on 22 June 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I'm sorry but MW4 by Microsoft was the worst of all MW series for PC. These guys (MW4 devs) had no idea what they were doing. It had ok graphics for its time, but as far as BT canon goes it was pure blunder and very arcade like MW game. If MWO is ever going to turn out like MW4 then that will be the day I will ask for my founders refund But seriously, the MWO devs have been developing MWO based on BT canon. In my opinion you can't go wrong with BT canon. Russ Bullock said in one of his interviews that MWO is based on BT canon. He added that they had to slightly modify BT canon in some instances to make it work within MWO game.That is fine as sometimes you just have to do that for the sake of game playability, but I think hope that MWO will be as close to BT canon as possible. All previous MW games have never done BT Universe justice and been truly limited as far as BT canon goes . Game play was purely arcade. The problem was that many players who didn't know BT Universe and how things work in BT, thought it was suppose to be like this. That you can install whatever you want on IS pre 3049 mech and do what you want. That was major arcade right there. Players created so called laser-boats in MW4 not even knowing or care that this was not canon. If you even could do that going by BT rules and let's say you somehow replaced all weapons with laser. The moment you would go and fire all of them your mech would probably explode on your first laser salvo. Many novice MW players think that this is ok, that this is normal, but in fact it is not this ain't happening in BT Universe. Clan tech can allow to install more lasers on your mech and still keep it cool due to better heat sinks but that is all. If you go all energy and chain fire it your mech either shutsdown or goes nuke. Too much heat In IS only few could even mess with customization like doing some unorthodox builds and load-outs. Because technical knowledge was lost to general public. Most technicians could only do so much, often mercs had to go to Outreach to have their mechs repaired because it required some skillful tech to do it. To make a long story short you can't customize mechs in BT Universe like you did in MW4 not even remotly close. I watched some MWO videos mainly some customization and from what I've see thank Kerensky MWO devs seem to got it right or very close to it. This right there is balance and prevents people from doing crazy unbalanced builds like laser boats or some idiotic setups on scout mechs that just don't make sense at all like I could do in MW4. I have to return to my previous verdict that Microsoft have completely butchered MW franchise in MW4. I think that some of the mods made for MW4 have actually helped it a bit but for the most part MW4 is an arcade game not a simulation. So hopefully the devs find some balance and keep MWO as close to BT canon as possible and still keep it as simulation and not an arcade balanced imitation of BT like MW4 by MS was. PS. MW4 was nothing about skill it was about abusing customization load outs and laserboats. MW2 series and partially MW3 was more about skill but still it was not according to BT canon. BT canon forces you to work as a team to use your mech for what it was designed to do, to support you teammates etc. BT canon keeps you with in rules of engagement designed by BT universe break those rules and you and your team will pay dearly.

While I agree that MW4 was not like the TT game, dont you realize why it wasnt? Why none of the mechwarrior games were? Because it doesnt work. the TT game was limited in comparison to an actual simulation of it. Every mechwarrior game had to be modified to make it work. If you think that MWO wont have to make changes to make it work also you will be disappointed here as well. As I once said before, the closer to the TT game they try to make this simulation game, the harder it will fail. I liked the ruleset for the TT, it was fun in that "enviroment", but to adhere to the exact same rule set for a totally different enviroment would make it too restrictive and suck out the fun. It would be a novelty, at first, and BT fans will be say YAY, its just like the TT game.... but, after a little while.... they will say... meh! this isnt as fun as I thought it would be.... I think ill go play something else that doesnt stress me out. While non TT fans will get bored even more quickly.

As for new players in MW4, of course they liked it, it was FUN FUN FUN, I was anew player in MW4, we all were, because it was different, it was like a new game. I didnt care if it wasnt like TT BT. The game was addictingly fun. And when a puretech style league showed up like NBT, it kept me and many others addicted to the game for several years. You cant tell me that MS made a mistake, the only mistake they did make was not making it a f2p style game and they stopped supporting it.

Try mechwarrior tactics instead for a more TT like experience. because MWO shouldnt be. You hardcore BT fans need to stop trying to make this new MWO game... unfun.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 June 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[RG Notch]

Teralitha, on 21 June 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

If what you say is implemented in the way you described, with heavy restrictions, difficul to obtain, as in, you cant just simply buy it... But if clan tech were to be awarded to players, upon achieveing a goal... and in small amounts, (very small) and is limited by critical slots, and hard point restricted(unrelated to weight).... THEN, I might find this acceptable. But until such things are in effect, AND...WORKING...PERFECTLY, I will remain a fanatical purist, and hold true to my predictions of the end of MWO world, based on history, and the tendancy of such, to repeat.

Again with the "End is nigh" sign. I guess it's time to treat you like those folks who sport such signs, don't make eye contact and keep away. There's no point in talking to or for the devs to bother trying to please a self described fanatic. Thanks for making that clear, now maybe people will stop wasting their time trying to reason with you. It's fine to have your opinions, but please stop with the doom saying. Take you sign and move along. You've made your opinion clear, nothing is going to change it and repeating it serves no purpose.

[Death Mallet]

So no to cross-tech.

When the clans show up, say YES!! to fluffy battles:

12 IS mechs

vs.

6 Clan mechs

There's your game balance.

[Teralitha]

Strum Wealh, on 22 June 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Personally, I would like to see only very limited "cross-teching".

More specifically:
1.) Even if Clan equipment is captured/salvaged, it cannot be installed through the common MechLab. To accomplish that, players would (at least, initially) have to go to only certain tech-savvy groups/facilities (such as Battle Magic on Outreach for Mercs and Lone Wolves, the NAIS for FedSunners, and equivalent facilities for the other Houses).
2.) Clan equipment should be extremely expensive to maintain and repair, and only serviceable by the above-mentioned groups/facilities.
3.) IS weapons and equipment (especially those items for which the Clans have no canon versions, like C3 and Standard ACs and Heavy Gauss Rifles and so on) should be similarly difficult and expensive for Clan units to maintain and repair.

Your thoughts?

----------

Alternatively... suppose MWO were to re-balance Clan tech to be more in-line with the notions put forward by Randall Bills in PGI's interview:
(emphasis mine)

Personally, I feel that this would lead to a much better balance between the tech bases (with Clan tech being generally lighter and more compact and producing more damage per salvo, but having equal (or only very slightly shorter) range and higher heat per salvo than comparable IS weapons).
Along the same lines, I would prefer to see Clan weapons have slightly-to-substantially longer recycle times than their IS counterparts.
IMO, this would tie in with Mr. Bills' comments about better emphasizing and reflecting the Clans' cultural values (specifically, the demonstration of an individual warrior's prowess and the waste-not-want-not mentality).

More practically, it reduces (but does not eliminate) the disparity in capabilities between Clan and IS tech, and instead places more emphasis on the disparity in ability and skill between Clan and IS pilots (which, IMO, should have been the focus all along), and as such makes "cross-teching" much less of the "obvious answer/strategy" than it had been in past BT/MW iterations.

Your thoughts?

lol I think he misunderstood the question they were asking, but his answer was brilliant.

[Jekrump]

Heck, I don't, even want the clans to be playable. I think it should be a pve thing, with them steadily invading and all of us defending.

[Anav]

yes please!

[BlindProphet]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Nonsense, I still stand by everything Ive said as fact. Since I have experience with crossteching in a mechwarrior game, anything I have said trumps anything you have said, and thats why I dont answer your silly personal attacks.

You don't answer well reasoned responses either. Can you refute what I pointed out about how much that experience matters when it pertains to MWO, what I pointed out about clantech in MWO, and what I pointed out about crossteching in MWO?

Unless you can your 'points' and 'facts' are pretty much worthless, as they don't apply to MWO in the least.

[Teralitha]

blindprophet, on 22 June 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

You don't answer well reasoned responses either. Can you refute what I pointed out about how much that experience matters when it pertains to MWO, what I pointed out about clantech in MWO, and what I pointed out about crossteching in MWO?

Unless you can your 'points' and 'facts' are pretty much worthless, as they don't apply to MWO in the least.

Anything I have said, trumps anything you have said, simply because all your points and facts are pretty much worthless. I know what makes a game fun, while it seems you do not. I also know what ruins a game. And I can assure, based on prior experience, that crossteching will ruin MWO. Trying to tell me that MWO will be different is just a pipe dream. The only it will work, from my perspective, is if clan technology cannot be bought, and only obtained through extremely rare salvage(loot) chances, like in the area of 0.001% chance per player, per game. It doesnt even have to have huge repair costs. Just be very rare.

Of course... all this will be moot if clan tech values are evened out to be more on par with IS tech, thereby giving hardly any advantage, and still cant be bought...

If clan tech one days shows up in the mechlab for sale... Ill be outa here.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 June 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Joe Luck]

I'm not against it per say but it will create an imbalance. So a few questions?

• If you can purchase clan tech for an IS mech will it be far more expensive(not just double,though that could be a pay to win scenario)?
  
• Will there be a limited quantity and will it run out ever so often or would it be limited per player max?
  
• Can you stockpile in case your mech gets it clan medium pulse laser destroyed?
  
• Can you sell the stockpiled weapons?(This to me fixes the imbalance because an ER Medium laser would eventually cost as much as a mech though that could be a pay to win scenario)
  
• Can you get instead as random salvage from fighting clans? A bonus for the survivors/winners of the battle for going up against them. If you say destroy enemy weapon components in a game against the clans that component becomes salvage, you get first dibs on the weapon choice round/robin style because your either the command of the winning unit or had the most kills.

[RG Notch]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

If clan tech one days shows up in the mechlab for sale... Ill be outa here.

That is the only fact, and I'm not even sure of that, in your ramblings. Speak for yourself, that's fine , predict doom, its laughable. All you know is what makes a game fun for YOU. All you know is what ruins a game for YOU. A wise man knows he knows nothing, obviously you're not a wise man.
I don't speak for everyone, I speak for me, I say wait it out and see how it's handled before pronouncing doom, because while I may not be wise, I know I know nothing about this.

[BigPuma]

Cross Tech is a good idea, if it comes with a disadvantage in the buying price for the IS warriors or, the other way round, with a price advantage for Clanners - even if I doubt many Clanners to go for IS weaponry, so.

[CCC Dober]

@Strum
I was there when the heavy lasers were introduced by Mektek ... in a realtime environment, mind.
My personal experience backed my opinion that they were/are the odd one out. Heavy Lasers are nowhere near as efficient or effective as the rest of the Clan energy weapons. The heat penalties are extremely stiff and make it impossible to field the larger versions in numbers, let alone fire them regularly. The only thing they had going for them was low weight and high damage. You had to be a lot more patient and considerate/picky than with an average ERLL or ERLPL boat. They required restraint and good heat management skills. If you wanted to shoot faster, the pulse lasers made that happen. I'm glad the designers left the IS some room to breathe because without the highly efficient Medium Laser, they would have had serious trouble. It's hard enough to face CLBX20 and SSRM4/6s already and this is where the Clans truly show their teeth and that does not even begin to account for the deadly Omni Mechs they are mounted on. The IS has only the Medium Laser against them and it would be ill advised to proxy-nerf it by making heavy lasers comparably better. Very ill advised.

[Zalikar]

I'd be happy with only having Clan double heatsinks. Giving up one less crit space could lead to more space for more heatsinks on my PPC boat .