220 replies to this topic

[Brien]

Remarius, on 21 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Actually they lost every battle except 2 wasn't it during the initial invasion - Twycross and one other (its a long time since I read the books!).

is why I stated my lack of lore knowledge just knew we won and it was not pretty

[BlindProphet]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Anything I have said, trumps anything you have said, simply because all your points and facts are pretty much worthless. I know what makes a game fun, while it seems you do not. I also know what ruins a game. And I can assure, based on prior experience, that crossteching will ruin MWO. Trying to tell me that MWO will be different is just a pipe dream. The only it will work, from my perspective, is if clan technology cannot be bought, and only obtained through extremely rare salvage(loot) chances, like in the area of 0.001% chance per player, per game. It doesnt even have to have huge repair costs. Just be very rare.

Of course... all this will be moot if clan tech values are evened out to be more on par with IS tech, thereby giving hardly any advantage, and still cant be bought...

If clan tech one days shows up in the mechlab for sale... Ill be outa here.

You have an astonishing ability to prove that you can not defend your opinions with anything resembling reason.

I did not once attack your experiences with MW4. I did not attack what your definition of fun is. I did not attack your position on balance in the game.

What I did was attack the idea that experience in MW4 can be applied as a measuring stick against MWO. Something you did not refute, and simply dismissed as a worthless idea because I apparently don't know what makes a fun game?

What I did was attack the idea that we have any idea of how clan tech will be implemented and thus can predict how it will affect play. Something you did not refute, and simply dismissed because you played MW4.

And based on these two points I attacked the idea that you can predict the game will fail if crossteching is added. Something you did not refute, and simply dismissed as worthless because you played MW4.

I argued for neither side...but you even argue against your own statements in this post by saying it will be fine if its ridiculously rare.

When you are able to form a reasoned argument feel free to post it...but seriously stop with this "my opinions are more valid than your facts because I say so" stuff. It doesn't help your position at all. You had people not wanting to support your cause for 360 because of you acting like this. Why do you keep doing it?

[SideSt3p]

It's going to happen. Luckily, PGI has a year to figure out exactly how they want it balanced. It should be basically legendary quality loot IMO.

[Archer Christifori]

Maybe make it an unlockable for IS Mech to wield some Clan Tech? Say 30% of the loadout. Clan Mechs should not be allowed to wield IS stuff.

[Nih]

I don't see how anyone can claim that crosstech will "imba" the game with such certainty, when we haven't played the game, nor do we even know how Clan tech will even be implemented.

All I see is a bunch of ridiculous absolute statements that don't seem to have any basis in reality other then "that's kind of how it worked in a really old game of similar source material".

Besides, last I checked, letting everyone have access to everything was the most balanced way to handle anything. I have a damned good suspicion that, travesty as it might be to some, when the Clan invasion comes, it will merely mean new factions to play as, and new equipment and mechs... for EVERYBODY.

Horrible, I know, but I just can't see a fair way to do it other then letting both sides have access to all mechs and all gear. Assuming they want to pay the price. Because balancing (and more importantly, dealing with public PERCEPTIONS of balance) is going to be hell if you have huge differences in gear and tech on one side, no matter how to try to balance it.

Uneven teams? Right. Trying to enforce Clan Honor? Right. ect.

See World of Tanks. (sorry to draw another comparison to the game, but it's a good example here) Different countries have tanks, with different strengths and weaknesses. But you find tanks from every nation on each team. It might not be perfectly balanced as far as individual tanks go, (people cry of Russian favoritism) but since each "team" has access, it has no effect on the overall balance of the game, one faction or another doesn't have a edge.

And that's infinitely more important.

[Deathwalker]

Let me throw this out there just to stir the pot a little more If you allow the Mech Lab, then you have to allow people to refit Crosstech. That is pretty much the end of the discussion right there. All the arguments against are just that arguments and unfounded ones. The "Unbalance the game" argument is already there the second you let people refit their mech with AC2 instead of AC20. There is a BIG range difference in these weapons and cycle rate. Replacing the default load out to pure energy weapons and dragging the fight out is a great strat, it also unbalances the game as no mech should be allowed to dominate simply because the build is better then the mech as a whole. Last point for this one is the game isn't fun when all your doing is Gauss Rifle fights across the map (yes, I remember the MW4 final days when that is all it was).This pretty much equates directly to your "unbalances the game" argument. If you’re whining about Crosstech then you need to be whining about the Mechlab too.

The real problem you need to look at is the MechLab. NO ONE knows what the clan tech is going to do to the Mechlab and ******** about it without hard stats is stupid. What if the dev team for the clans hated the lore and decides to gimp them to balance it the other way and give the IS an advantage in the clan wars (call it supply problems)? What if when the Clans finally show, they don't use the initial attack as their reference point and use the 3055 tech as a starting point instead. You know, when the IS pretty much caught up in tech and the clans were sitting kind of stagnant? What if all the IS mechs get a full refit to the new tech when the Clans arrive?

I think that pretty much sums up the other side of the argument you’re making against Crosstech. Crosstech has the potential to ruin the game if implemented without balancing the IS with the new/lost tech they receive after the truce of Tukayyid but, so does refitting a mech in the mechlab without any check and balances.

Edited by Deathwalker, 22 June 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[CCC Dober]

SideSt3p, on 22 June 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

It's going to happen. Luckily, PGI has a year to figure out exactly how they want it balanced. It should be basically legendary quality loot IMO.

I see the new badge is already working on you

[Zso Sahal]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Nonsense, I still stand by everything Ive said as fact. Since I have experience with crossteching in a mechwarrior game, anything I have said trumps anything you have said, and thats why I dont answer your silly personal attacks.

Try again. Your train of logic here would fail in Kindergarden. You have pages of actual points to rebut from several people, and I'm still waiting for you to actually address them. Merely responding with a variation of "I know you are, but what am I?" really isn't going to cut it if you want to have an actual debate. Btw, I have yet to personally attack you in this thread; I've debated your points, which is what we're supposed to be doing. . Now, as far as insulting you, that's up to you if you take what I write in an insulting fashion.


Cheers

Edited by Zso Sahal, 22 June 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Ghost]

Can we all take a deep breath and calm down a little? There's very little discussion and a whole lot of argument going on instead. I don't want to lock the thread just yet...

[CCC Dober]

@Ghost
Can you ask the powers that be to make Comstar a bit more generous?
I don't think we're getting anywhere until that tech gap is closing enough to enable remotely fair fights.
Tukayyid was a pretty good fight after all.

[Teralitha]

blindprophet, on 22 June 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

You have an astonishing ability to prove that you can not defend your opinions with anything resembling reason.
I argued for neither side...but you even argue against your own statements in this post by saying it will be fine if its ridiculously rare.

When you are able to form a reasoned argument feel free to post it...but seriously stop with this "my opinions are more valid than your facts because I say so" stuff. It doesn't help your position at all. You had people not wanting to support your cause for 360 because of you acting like this. Why do you keep doing it?

Now who is being intellectually dishonest? You got it all wrong, its my FACTS that are more valid than your opinions. See this is your problem, you assume what I say isnt a fact., and that what you say is. You got everything backwards, its no wonder you cant understand my posts. Once you accept what I say as fact, and that what you say is actually just misguided opinion, it will all be clear to you and everything will make sense, blind man....open your eyes to the truth.

All of your ramblings have no purpose other than to personally attack me, and try to flip things around to make yourself look like you said something intelligent. Anyone with brains here can see right through you.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 June 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Teralitha]

Nih, on 22 June 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

I just can't see a fair way to do it other then letting both sides have access to all mechs and all gear.

The answer is really very simple. No crosstech.

Deathwalker, on 22 June 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

Let me throw this out there just to stir the pot a little more If you allow the Mech Lab, then you have to allow people to refit Crosstech. That is pretty much the end of the discussion right there. All the arguments against are just that arguments and unfounded ones. The "Unbalance the game" argument is already there the second you let people refit their mech with AC2 instead of AC20. There is a BIG range difference in these weapons and cycle rate. Replacing the default load out to pure energy weapons and dragging the fight out is a great strat, it also unbalances the game as no mech should be allowed to dominate simply because the build is better then the mech as a whole. Last point for this one is the game isn't fun when all your doing is Gauss Rifle fights across the map (yes, I remember the MW4 final days when that is all it was).This pretty much equates directly to your "unbalances the game" argument. If you’re whining about Crosstech then you need to be whining about the Mechlab too.

The real problem you need to look at is the MechLab. NO ONE knows what the clan tech is going to do to the Mechlab and ******** about it without hard stats is stupid. What if the dev team for the clans hated the lore and decides to gimp them to balance it the other way and give the IS an advantage in the clan wars (call it supply problems)? What if when the Clans finally show, they don't use the initial attack as their reference point and use the 3055 tech as a starting point instead. You know, when the IS pretty much caught up in tech and the clans were sitting kind of stagnant? What if all the IS mechs get a full refit to the new tech when the Clans arrive?

I think that pretty much sums up the other side of the argument you’re making against Crosstech. Crosstech has the potential to ruin the game if implemented without balancing the IS with the new/lost tech they receive after the truce of Tukayyid but, so does refitting a mech in the mechlab without any check and balances.

I also think no mechlab is the best way to go too. I mean, look at league of legends, you cant customize your champions abilities in a mechlab right? They have what they have and thats it. And it works

[Zso Sahal]

Alright, lets try this again. Tera, how about you list your facts as succinctly as possible, so that we might have a rational discussion.

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

You got it all wrong, its my FACTS that are more valid than your opinions.

The above doesn't qualify as a rational or valid argument. I'm open to an honest debate, but currently, all you have done is claim that your opinions are facts merely because you have stated them without any supporting evidence. That is what I and the others who have debated you feel you have not provided; any supporting evidence other than your own opinion.

So, here goes round 2 eh?

~Cheers

Edited by Zso Sahal, 22 June 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Metal Fish]

The only way to balance clan mechs sensibly is to make all clan mechs and parts available for everyone. (for a price)

[Teralitha]

Zso Sahal, on 22 June 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Alright, lets try this again. Tera, how about you list your facts as succinctly as possible, so that we might have a rational discussion.



The above doesn't qualify as a rational or valid argument. I'm open to an honest debate, but currently, all you have done is claim that your opinions are facts merely because you have stated them without any supporting evidence. That is what I and the others who have debated you feel you have not provided; any supporting evidence other than your own opinion.

So, here goes round 2 eh?

~Cheers

The above doesn't qualify as a rational or valid argument. I'm open to an honest debate, but currently, all you have done is claim that your opinions are facts merely because you have stated them without any supporting evidence.

Metal Fish, on 22 June 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

The only way to balance clan mechs sensibly is to make all clan mechs and parts available for everyone. (for a price)

Pay to win? No. Think before speaking.

[Teralitha]

Zso Sahal, on 22 June 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Try again. Your train of logic here would fail in Kindergarden. You have pages of actual points to rebut from several people, and I'm still waiting for you to actually address them. Merely responding with a variation of "I know you are, but what am I?" really isn't going to cut it if you want to have an actual debate. Btw, I have yet to personally attack you in this thread; I've debated your points, which is what we're supposed to be doing. . Now, as far as insulting you, that's up to you if you take what I write in an insulting fashion.


Cheers

The insult, is in your lies.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 June 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Metal Fish]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

The above doesn't qualify as a rational or valid argument. I'm open to an honest debate, but currently, all you have done is claim that your opinions are facts merely because you have stated them without any supporting evidence.



Pay to win? No. Think before speaking.

no.. what? no...

With C-Bills, the currency everyone in the game earns after every match. derp.

[Teralitha]

Metal Fish, on 22 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

no.. what? no...

With C-Bills, the currency everyone in the game earns after every match. derp.

The other in game currency, which anyone can buy with real money, and then use to buy anything in game... derp.

Pay to win, for the fail.

Edited by Teralitha, 22 June 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[Metal Fish]

Teralitha, on 22 June 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

The other in game currency, which anyone can buy with real money, and then use to buy anything in game... derp.

Pay to win, for the fail.

I was talking about C-Bills the whole time... >_> The could easily make clan makes available for purchase with both C-Bills and the "real fake money" as long as C-Bills arent super hard to acquire. Otherwise that would be pay-to-win for sure.

For the record, I have always been against pay-to-win, as I am a poor *******.

Edited by Metal Fish, 22 June 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Zso Sahal]

*facepalm*

I feel like I'm playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how well I play, all you do is knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around victoriously.

Seriously, either lay out your points rationally, and have an honest debate, or accept that over 50% of the forums don't agree with you and move on.