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Improving Heat System And Incorporating Heat Effects


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Poll: Questions related (48 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you like the idea for tweaking Heat Sinks? Both Dissipation and Capacity?

  1. Yes (34 votes [70.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 70.83%

  2. No (7 votes [14.58%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.58%

  3. Other (Please Explain) (4 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  4. Abstain (3 votes [6.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

Do you like the idea of having real time Heat Effects?

  1. Yes (39 votes [81.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 81.25%

  2. No (4 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  3. Other (Please Explain) (2 votes [4.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  4. Abstain (3 votes [6.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

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#1 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:29 PM

For a while, I've been mulling over ideas related to how Heat works in MWO and how the system can be improved. And another thing I've been wondering about is, how can more Heat Effects be incorporated in what we already have in MWO?

Working through the ideas more, the main issue is the slow dissipation we have, and the lack of excess heat effects in MWO, relative to our doubled armor values and our increased rate of fire (that also increases how fast we build heat).

Therefore one thing that can be done is to have Heat Dissipation get an increase to at least better match how heat works in the original.

Following that, we also need to find the best way to incorporate Heat Effects.



Here are some ideas below:




If we retain current weapon stats, I believe that exploring a renewed scale with doubled dissipation values (0.2 for SHS and 0.4 for DHS) to better match other various increased values, could be an improvement for MWO.

So with such a change, the current increased capacity and heat scale penalties should be adjusted and incorporate heat effects to better emulate heat effects in MWO.

The main thing to try is reduce the gifted 30 capacity to be reduced to 14 and then simply apply effects as seen in the original.

And with such changes, should totally eliminate the need for Heat Generation quirks due to the increased dissipation and follows closely to the original Heat system with Heat Effects applied appropriately.

Posted Image

Posted Image



Ideas of a reduced fixed cap and reduced variable capacity in line with quirks:




Spoiler



Keeping earlier thoughts in spoiler.




Spoiler





Heat Scale Penalties may remain in place with tweaks to when they kick in, and how much of a penalty is applied; to better aid for builds that worked efficiently in the original, where Heat Scale can still be used to maybe represent inefficiencies in building a mech non-stock depending on how it can synergize with quirks and a modified heat system. They can certainly see some adjustments as to what weapons trigger in terms of the buckets / weapon grouping for the Penalties.

So quirks that affect Heat would likely need some tweaking, but these could be fine in most cases.

Weapons can also look to have their original base heat values, such as ER Large Lasers at 12 heat, Large Lasers at 8 heat and so on.




Just want to note, that pushing dissipation higher is another avenue to test out where SHS can give 0.25 a second and DHS at give 0.5 a second, to better match MWO's rate of fire as shown in the table above.

So trying these changes can certainly work, it's just a matter of testing out the values and seeing how the modifications interact with the other various systems, including current quirks, where Heat Generation quirks, might be obsolete with improved Dissipation.

Also, looking forward to what the devs have in store for their re-balancing efforts that are coming in the future.




Again, these are just ideas, so I'm open to feedback, and as I get time I'll be updating and detailing more..

Thanks for reading!

Edited by Nothing Whatsoever, 28 July 2018 - 11:54 PM.


#2 kapusta11

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 04:09 PM

"-1 movement point means" your engine performs as if it's rating were reduced by mech's tonnage, so if you're in an Awesome with 300 rated engine you will move as if you had 220 rated engine. So if you pop around the corner and fire something way too hot you won't be able to disengage fast enough and take A LOT of damage from enemy team. Transfers really good from TT to MWO IMO.

Heat cap is dynamic and depends on the amount of heat you generate and dissipate per certain time interval (10 sec in TT, 4 sec in MWO). So when you generate 40 heat per turn (4 sec in MWO) 20 double heatsinks should be enough to make you heat neutral, but if you do generate even 5 pts. more heat the penalty is pretty severe as you can see above. So basically heat cap is Number of heatsinks X Dissipation of one over time interval (2 over 10 sec in TT, should be the same (2) in MWO only over 4 sec), Heat Scale starts from that point.

Proper dissipation is 0.5 per double heatsink (2 heat over 4 sec) since rate of fire was increased 2.5 (10/2.5 = 4, that's where it comes) times and dissipation acts as primary cooldown for energy weapos.

Heat system's purpose is not to limit pinpoint alphas but to make energy weapons even with ballistics in weight and crit space by forcing players to equip enough heatsinks to cool all the stuff they've put in their mechs.

Edited by kapusta11, 06 January 2015 - 04:17 PM.


#3 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 04:26 PM

Very true, what I've been brainstorming has been evolving as I better understand where we're at with MWO's numbers.

I'd have no problem having the full penalties as in the original either.




If we would have some sort of global chain-fire maybe, to at least spread damage from grouped weapons, then I'd definitely like to see proper dissipation values as you suggest, my concern is being able to focus down mech sections with current weapon damage values too fast, as we already can deal a lot of damage.

So, with how we can group several weapons and hit the same section in MWO, we need something to keep that under control. And Heat Scale Penalties should not be the go to solution for that, which was why I've been looking to have an override-able shutdown be set to ~28 or 30 units in the mean time until we can find a better and permanent solution, than just another band-aid.

#4 HlynkaCG

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 05:26 PM

I've posted this before but here are my thoughts regarding the heat system...
  • A mech's maximum heat capacity at engine size / 10 plus 1 point for each heat-sink installed outside the engine.
  • Each heatsink would dissipate 0.25 points of heat per second, doubles would dissipate 0.5.
  • Engines would produce heat equal to throttle setting * engine size / 100 points per second. This would make smaller engines more heat efficicient and larger ones less so. A 250 engine with with the minimum 10 SHS would be heat neutral,

What I think these changes would accomplish...
  • Comparably lower heat caps coupled with heat from movement means that few mechs will be able to pull off big-alpha strikes without shutting down or otherwise remaining stationary.
  • Comparably faster heat dissipation further encourages chain-firing over alpha strikes, reducing the wider emphasis on PP/FLD.
  • Many stock builds will have substantially higher heat capacities than their "optimized" brethren (looking at you AWS-8Q ;) ) putting them on a slightly more even footing for that early grind.
  • The choice to run DHS, becomes less clear-cut as having a higher max heat level will help some builds more than the increased dissipation of DHS will.
  • You can still run and gun but there is now a sound tactical reason to move at less than 100% throttle or use a smaller engine as doing so improves cooling efficiency.
Specific values are subject to tweaking and discussion of course but that should be enough to give you a general idea.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 06 January 2015 - 05:26 PM.


#5 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 07:08 PM

View Postkapusta11, on 06 January 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

"-1 movement point means" your engine performs as if it's rating were reduced by mech's tonnage, so if you're in an Awesome with 300 rated engine you will move as if you had 220 rated engine. So if you pop around the corner and fire something way too hot you won't be able to disengage fast enough and take A LOT of damage from enemy team. Transfers really good from TT to MWO IMO.


I was double checking the speed values, 1 MP is 10.8 KPH so up to a -5 MP would be 54 KPH. Should be significant enough penalty if we retain that much excess heat.

Quote

Spoiler



It will be interesting to try this values out.

So having DHS at 0.5, should get us 0.25 for SHS.

So using a Stock AWS-8Q firing three PPCs with current quirks and Heat Scale Penalty generates 31.95 heat every four seconds and dissipates 28 heat over 4 seconds. Gaining ~3.95 excess Heat.

A Stock Warhawk Prime firing three ERPPCs currently gains 63.9 heat and dissipates 40 over 4 seconds so it currently would gain 23.9 on the scale, so it either needs quirks or a change for when Heat Scale kicks in.

So it would need to at least start with a 30% Heat Reduction for ERPPCs with quirks to get Heat to 44.73.

Here's two tables that I came up with:
Spoiler



View PostHlynkaCG, on 06 January 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

I've posted this before but here are my thoughts regarding the heat system...
  • A mech's maximum heat capacity at engine size / 10 plus 1 point for each heat-sink installed outside the engine.
  • Each heatsink would dissipate 0.25 points of heat per second, doubles would dissipate 0.5.
  • Engines would produce heat equal to throttle setting * engine size / 100 points per second. This would make smaller engines more heat efficicient and larger ones less so. A 250 engine with with the minimum 10 SHS would be heat neutral,
Spoiler







I can see the value in the dissipation rates, my only concerns being able to deal our damage to a single component where originally each weapon was likely each able to hit a different section

With throttle setting are you thinking of a % value or something like a whole number? I was looking to see how this can be calculated.

Originally mechs have a Walking MP (generating one Heat a turn) and Running MP (generating two Heat a turn). WIth how many engine choices we have in MWO we can use (Engine Rating divided by Weight) to find walking MP. Then we multiply that value by 10.8 to get the KPH. So say take a Locust with a 160 engine it's walking KPH is 86.4 and Runs up to the speed we know in MWO.

Edit:

So what can be looked at to keep close to the original is charge a walking mech one Heat Sink so 0.25 dissipation loss a second triggering up to 66% Throttle, then running goes up 0.5 a second.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 06 January 2015 - 07:48 PM.


#6 kapusta11

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 01:27 AM

View PostPraetor Knight, on 06 January 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:


I was double checking the speed values, 1 MP is 10.8 KPH so up to a -5 MP would be 54 KPH. Should be significant enough penalty if we retain that much excess heat.



It will be interesting to try this values out.

So having DHS at 0.5, should get us 0.25 for SHS.

So using a Stock AWS-8Q firing three PPCs with current quirks and Heat Scale Penalty generates 31.95 heat every four seconds and dissipates 28 heat over 4 seconds. Gaining ~3.95 excess Heat.

A Stock Warhawk Prime firing three ERPPCs currently gains 63.9 heat and dissipates 40 over 4 seconds so it currently would gain 23.9 on the scale, so it either needs quirks or a change for when Heat Scale kicks in.

So it would need to at least start with a 30% Heat Reduction for ERPPCs with quirks to get Heat to 44.73.


In MWO we pick engine based on how fast we want to go / how much spare tonnage we have, to apply penalty in a proper way we need to calculate the exact amount of MP we have. There's a formula to determine engine rating based on how many MP you want:
  • Tonnage x Desired Walking MP = Engine Rating
  • 80 x N = 300
  • N = 3.75 MP, subtract 1 (Penalty) and calculate engine rating again:
  • 80 x 2.75 = 220 (performance wise)
The general formula is as follows:
  • Tonnage x ([Current Engine Rating / Tonnage] - Penalty) = Modified Engine Rating
Or
  • Current Engine Rating - [Penalty x Tonnage] = Modified Engine Rating
Yest it may match 10 kph speed on some mechs but it's not all about movement speed, it's overall slow down, and acceleration/deceleration/torso twist ratings are more important in mech engagements.

Quirks should be removed, it's a band-aid solution (unless it's armor/internal structure quirks that help oversized mechs, PGI don't want to rescale them anyways), Awesome and any other energy boats will do great with 0.5 dissipation but will be top-down balanced. Plus water should boost the cooling depending on how deep you're standing in it.

Cool run skills should be removed as well.

Even speed tweak and all the other skills, if you want to add MASC and Supercharger in future.

Edited by kapusta11, 07 January 2015 - 03:26 AM.


#7 HlynkaCG

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 09:56 AM

View PostPraetor Knight, on 06 January 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

I can see the value in the dissipation rates, my only concerns being able to deal our damage to a single component where originally each weapon was likely each able to hit a different section

With throttle setting are you thinking of a % value or something like a whole number? I was looking to see how this can be calculated.

Originally mechs have a Walking MP (generating one Heat a turn) and Running MP (generating two Heat a turn). WIth how many engine choices we have in MWO we can use (Engine Rating divided by Weight) to find walking MP. Then we multiply that value by 10.8 to get the KPH. So say take a Locust with a 160 engine it's walking KPH is 86.4 and Runs up to the speed we know in MWO.


As I said in my reply, movement heat would be equal to "throttle setting * engine size / 100". A 280 engine would produce 2.8 heat per second at full throttle, (1.0 * 280 /100) 1.4 heat at half speed (0.5 * 280/100), and so on. A 250 engine with the minimal 10 internal SHS would produce 2.5 heat at full throttle while dissipating 2.5 making the engine heat neutral. a 300 engine with the minimal 10 heat-sinks would produce 3 heat while dissipating 2.5, resulting in a heat gain of 0.5 heat per second at full throttle. (filling the engine's two internal heatsink slots would bring your dissipation up to 3.0 making the engine heat neutral again)

As for the MP penalty I think that you are jumping ahead of yourself and possibly nuking the problem.

With movement heat implemented the simplest way is to simply have a throttle limiter that prevents you from generating more heat than you can dissipate so long as your heat level is above X, thus preventing players from cooking themselves through movement. For instance that 300 engine with minimal heat sinks would be limited to 75% (2.5 heat produced and 2.5 heat dissipated) Once your heat falls below that critical level, the throttle limit is removed. For giggles even we could have the "Override" function disable the throttle limiter to allow a momentary "sprint".

Regarding the pin point damage issue:

You need to remember that the under my system very few mechs would be able to fire a big alpha without shutting down. That in itself is a major balancing factor as it makes the high alpha builds much more vulnerable to DPS builds and things like airstrikes.

The Awesome is actually an outlier in this regard, but consider the price it pays for that 30 point "spamable" alpha. 21 tons of guns plus 18 tons of heat-sinks, is a lot of tonnage on a 80 ton mech. A mech that dedicates nearly half it's weight to it's primary weapon system SHOULD be able to dish out some serious hurt.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 07 January 2015 - 10:02 AM.


#8 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 05:25 AM

Leaving the originally modified idea in a spoiler here, and will be putting an updated idea for the heat system in the OP.

Spoiler


#9 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 07:43 AM

This isn't TT. Leave the heat scale as it is.

The only thing I'm interested in seeing, is the removal of that nonsensical Ghost Heat. Adding scales to make random events occur may be a good idea for a game based on dice rolls, but is ludicrous for a game like MWO.

I want my performance to be based on my skill and not some programmed chance cube.

#10 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:21 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 January 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

This isn't TT. Leave the heat scale as it is.

The only thing I'm interested in seeing, is the removal of that nonsensical Ghost Heat. Adding scales to make random events occur may be a good idea for a game based on dice rolls, but is ludicrous for a game like MWO.

I want my performance to be based on my skill and not some programmed chance cube.


You do realize that the heat scale is not changing too much from current MWO values, and that the increased dissipation suggestion will help builds deal with our current rates of fire?

If you know how the heat system works, you should realize that there is nothing random to how heat increases or decreases.

Where you get the % chances is when riding high amounts of excess heat that is not being pumped out fast enough by heat sink dissipation.

#11 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 09:05 AM

View PostPraetor Knight, on 08 January 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:


You do realize that the heat scale is not changing too much from current MWO values, and that the increased dissipation suggestion will help builds deal with our current rates of fire?

If you know how the heat system works, you should realize that there is nothing random to how heat increases or decreases.

Where you get the % chances is when riding high amounts of excess heat that is not being pumped out fast enough by heat sink dissipation.


The heat scale change itself is not objectionable to me. The addition of random chance is. The Mech heat warning and shutdown is to prevent the Mech from overheating beyond the range of its safety limit. If the random chances and penalties the OP wishes to add are beyond this current limit, then fine; that's fair. If these additions are to be added below the current cut-off, then I am very much against the implementation.

When I am running my Mechs, I often successfully run a heat curve between 80% and 90%. Even with the proposed dissipation increases, it is unlikely that I will cease doing so. A lot of my Mechs are energy boats (HBK-4P, Novas, Adders, Kit Foxes, TDRs, Firestarters, Quickdraws, etc.). Because of my skill, I can run a higher heat curve on them effectively. The last thing I want to see in this game, are random chances for my Mech to spontaneously combust, accrue damage, or suffer some sort of negative effect because I am in the middle of a hot fight. Such penalties should only occur if you exceed the current heat limit, as is the current implementation.

In reality, such cut-offs exist to prevent negative impacts. It is only when the cut-offs are exceeded that the chance for failure exists. To artificially induce such chances below the safety limit, simply because some people want this to be like TT, is both flawed and foolish.

#12 Koniving

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 09:37 AM

It's not bad and looks like it will work alright with how MWO is. It also does not lock overall threshold, which honestly I'm less than thrilled with.

I've been working on something different, with no intention of it being for MWO, because I consider MWO's heat system a lost cause with developers who have no intention of redesigning. Thus, I have a bit more in the way of liberties.

While I won't give the full details, I've worked on two systems with the assumption of transitioning a real time Battletech game with a 1 to 1 translation with traditional tabletop while removing the dice rolls almost completely...from everything. Yes, this means through armor criticals, pilot consciousness, engine crits, heatsink taxing rules and more. And by extension, yes, this means the heat scale.

Rather than go into the heat scale and such at the moment, I'll just convey the two basic concepts of heatsinks.
Spoiler

Fun, no?
Sadly neither system will work for MWO, even if it could be done every single thing would have to be redone and rebalanced around it... as it's designed specifically to translate TT into real time and allow that real time to translate perfectly back into TT with no deficiencies.

Though I am curious as to opinions from those who are like-minded.

Edited by Koniving, 26 May 2015 - 11:02 AM.


#13 Mark of Caine

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 11:23 AM

Although I've grown to accept and manage the current PGI implementation of their heat system, I would be for testing the ideas above, both the OP's and Koniving's (particularly your second proposal), and see if they fair better. If it could reduce the insane amount of alphas, especially from clan weapons, I would embrace a new system that reduces or eliminates this problem in the game.

#14 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:30 PM

Alphas aren't much of a problem.

If a Clanner Alphas, then he just created a window for you to shred him. Most Clan Mechs run too hot to fight effectively after and alpha or two. Since their weapons have a long burn time compared to IS (that goes for energy and ballistics), you can spread the damage fairly easily and then kill the Clanner when he overheats.

My BLR-1S beat a Daishi in a toe-to-toe fight using just two MLs. Daishi's CT armor was open, but the internals were healthy. My Mech was out of LRMs and just had MLs. I baited the Daishi and closed to range, spreading damage as I did. Sure nuff, he overheated. I just stood there in front of him and cored him out.

...Now...a good Clan pilot won't Alpha because of the heat. He'll fire in groups or with chain fire and systematically destroy you. Been there, had it happen (and have done it). In that case, hand-wringing over Alphas isn't applicable because the pilot avoided them entirely.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Overall though, I think most people, though unhappy with heat, have become comfortable dealing with it. For many, it's become something of an "I prefer the known evil to the unknown" kind of thing. I'll admit that I myself fall into that category. As someone competitive in nature, I'd rather take the known heat scale and all it's shortcomings over a new scale, simply because I have familiarity with the old one. If someone can convince me that the new scale is genuinely better, then I'll take it.

However, one thing I will never accept, is an artificial insertion of random chance. When I pull the trigger and overheat, causing damage or death to my Mech, then shame on me; but I better not pull the trigger and die due to an ammo explosion while still less than three-quarters of my heat gauge is full!

...And again, the shutdown cut-out is a safety feature to prevent damage to the Mech due to overheating! If you pass the shut-down threshold, then you are chancing damage; perhaps cataclysmic in nature! To say, "Naw, we're gonna change that to 60%" is awful; you're cutting the heat gauge by nearly half! Even if you are dissipating heat more quickly, it won't matter in the long run. It's nearly impossible to fight below 60% during a match! I will also add that percentages mean exactly that; percents. When something is manufactured with a safety threshold for heat, like in the Mechs in question, there is a set temperature at which the safety feature activates. Let's say, for the sake of an example, that the limit is 100 degrees. The Mech would accrue damage at 110 degrees, so as soon as it hits 100 degrees, the safety cut-out activates and shuts down the Mech. Since damage is only dealt at 110 degrees, no harm is done to the Mech. Now, if the Mech is at 60%, then it's perfectly fine; there's no need to shut it down. If it's at 90%, then it's still within the safe zone and no harm will be done to the Mech, neither will it be shut down. If 100 degrees is exceeded, then the Mech heat is in the danger zone and there is a chance of damage. At 110 degrees and higher, damage is certain.

That's why I am so vehemently against this. The idea is great for TT and dice games where chance is a driver; but in a skill based game, trying to force chance into it by changing the heat threshold to be unattainable is flat-out wrong, especially when such a change would defeat the purpose and normal operation of a shut-down cut-out.

#15 HlynkaCG

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 01:59 PM

View PostKoniving, on 08 January 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

/Length...


I recognize your first proposal as a reasonable "real-time" implementation of the TT mechanic but am a little hazy on what the 2nd is supposed to accomplish. I gather that it's supposed to be a more accurate representation of Sefan's law and actual thermal dynamics but it seems needlessly complex from a game play perspective while actually encouraging PP-FLD rather than discouraging it.

@ the OP
I still think that you are over-thinking the heat penalties.

Even without engine heat, adding a throttle interlock that reduces your throttle by X% when your heat is at Y% would be pretty straight forward. Likewise for increasing weapon recycle rates so that you don't produce more heat than you can sink.

From there I would say that you can press "Override" to avoid these penalties but then (and only then) do you run the risk of ammo explosions and the like. This serves to make the Override function a proper risk v reward choice. Is that big alpha worth risking the wrath of the RNG? Do you feel lucky? Well do you, punk? ;)

#16 HlynkaCG

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 02:09 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 January 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

However, one thing I will never accept, is an artificial insertion of random chance. When I pull the trigger and overheat, causing damage or death to my Mech, then shame on me; but I better not pull the trigger and die due to an ammo explosion while still less than three-quarters of my heat gauge is full!


Out of curiosity would you find something along the line of the following acceptable?

Introduce a throttle penalty associated with heat scale. As your heat approaches 100% your maximum throttle setting, forward and reverse is reduced by X%. You also have a trigger lock that prevents a weapon from firing if doing so will put you over 100% heat.

You can disable these penalties / "safety features" by pressing the Override button but doing so opens you up to the RNG.

#17 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 02:25 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 08 January 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

[/size]

Out of curiosity would you find something along the line of the following acceptable?

Introduce a throttle penalty associated with heat scale. As your heat approaches 100% your maximum throttle setting, forward and reverse is reduced by X%. You also have a trigger lock that prevents a weapon from firing if doing so will put you over 100% heat.

You can disable these penalties / "safety features" by pressing the Override button but doing so opens you up to the RNG.


The throttle lock I would not, but the weapon lock could work. Frankly, I don't see much difference between it and the current shut-down feature though, except that it helps prevent you from accidentally doing so.

#18 HlynkaCG

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:01 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 08 January 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

The throttle lock I would not, but the weapon lock could work. Frankly, I don't see much difference between it and the current shut-down feature though, except that it helps prevent you from accidentally doing so.


Assuming the penalties were clearly defined in a "(f)X = Y" manner, why not?

#19 Nightmare1

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:59 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 08 January 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

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Assuming the penalties were clearly defined in a "(f)X = Y" manner, why not?


If the penalties were clearly defined in such a manner, sure, but only if it made sense. Like I said, it does not make sense to add penalties when you are in the "safe" zone below your 100% threshold. That, even for a fantasy sci-fi game, is ludicrous to me. This could also be because I work in a chemical plant and am very familiar with built-in safeties and redundancies. It seems laughable that a mech costing 10,000,000 C-bills would have a safety cut-out system that did not function until after the Mech had already sustained personally-inflicted damage. Also, from what I read in the books (I know, I know; TT = Bible, but this isn't TT), the safety cut-out usually did prevent internal damages from occurring.

Now, if the heat scale is fixed in a manner where 0 - 100 is your normal operating room, then that's okay with me. The penalties can all come afterwards. What I think of when I look at this, is not reducing the heat scale or hampering it in any way; leave it as is. Instead, remove the auto-damage/death beyond the 100% and replace it with the penalties scale. It makes more sense there because passing the 100% line moves you out of the "safe" zone. This may make the heat scale too large, in which case compressing it could be justified if the dissipation rate of the heat sinks is increased in such a way to create a scale that functions in an identical, or nearly identical, manner to the one we have.

I suppose a better way of putting would be like this: I'm A-OK with adding in all this stuff so long as it comes after the 100% shut-down safety cut-out. Setting it to start adding penalties at 38%, followed by chance cube damages or death after 60%, to me, seems remarkably stupid. Any such negative effects, on most modern pieces of equipment (and MW/BT is in the future, so it should be even more advanced) would normally occur after the safety limits had been surpassed.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. It's not that I'm closed to changes to our heat scale, I just want to see some common sense changes, and I don't want a chance cube dictating my fights. When I face an opponent, I want it to be me versus them, and not each of us fighting while some cosmic pair of coded chance cubes are rolling around like crazy and causing weird things to happen. If I die, it better be because I made a mistake or the other player was a better pilot, and not because my set of dice gave me snake eyes.

#20 Koniving

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 05:49 PM

Edit: Spotted a math error, fixed.
Final edit: Added some more to the "fluff" aspect dramatizing how the system could 'creep up' on you and get you.

View PostHlynkaCG, on 08 January 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I recognize your first proposal as a reasonable "real-time" implementation of the TT mechanic but am a little hazy on what the 2nd is supposed to accomplish. I gather that it's supposed to be a more accurate representation of Sefan's law and actual thermal dynamics but it seems needlessly complex from a game play perspective while actually encouraging PP-FLD rather than discouraging it.


You're absolutely correct. It is a bit more complicated and a little needlessly so, but this isn't aimed for a game. It is aimed for a simulation. Also correct, the deteriorating rate concept would actually allow you fire off quite an alpha strike. In a sense, it is meant to allow what you see in the Mechwarrior 'cinematics' as well as certain novels where, rather clearly, the core game physics were completely lost on the authors.

The Solid Rate concept would allow you to either generate up to 5 units of heat above your heatsink limit before heatsinks begin to melt OR 30 heat at any one instant in which you'd abruptly shut down until reduced to less than 50% of Mech Threshold at 14 units of heat; whichever of the two comes first to stop and control your potential alpha strike...

The Deteriorating Rate concept on the other hand allows you to fire as much as you can handle in heatsinks + 30 threshold as many, eh, for lack of a better word "tabletop players who don't put much thought into it" and PGI's David and Paul seem to believe you can do in an instant (as opposed to in a 10 second time period), but then forces a time limiter which would deteriorate your actual second by second cooling ability, essentially treating your second by second absorption rate and your dissipation rate as two sides of the same coin with the same limit.

In essence, where MWO combines heatsink threshold + mech threshold and adds cooling on top of it... the Deteriorating Rate concept combines Heatsink Threshold and Cooling as One Combined Entity, and then adds Mech Threshold.

You still will not get away with what you can in MWO.

Before I continue, it is important to note that while every MW system ever made follows the Solid Rate concept of You sink X heat per second.. the Deteriorating Rate concept changes this into "You sink a variable amount of heat per second depending on your heatsink availability, and then dissipate that heat over time."

I guess in the simplest terms... You fire. So long as your heatsinks can handle it, half of your heat from that shot is absorbed instantly and begins "Dissipating". Meanwhile, second by second you tick away (or sink) additional heat from your Mech Threshold to your Heatsink Threshold. The more heat you have to absorb, the harder it gets.

Lets try a quick example.
Spoiler

A bit to grasp, but we're still going.
Spoiler

And yes, I'm aware it is obscenely complicated. Hence the difficulty in min/maxing it. But "feeling" it is actually far easier than comprehending it. But it does require two heat gauges for obvious reasons.

---

It is important to remind everyone, this concept was made with tabletop to real time in mind. The concept is NOT made with MWO in mind. (You'd freaking melt your mech way too quick! The mechs would be virtually invincible to weapons fire given how infrequently you could shoot given the limitations to your heat abilities.) It is designed for a BT simulation.

This means the BT armor, BT structure, BT firing ratings and BT heat levels. Provided that you keep within that, you could alpha strike and then sit and cool off for 10 full seconds. Or you could manage your abilities better by firing a weapon or two at a time, allowing you to fire more frequently at the cost of using only some weapons at a time.

But in a time of crisis, you could push it.
Spoiler

As you can see from the above, the idea is that this would accompany every system from TT into a translation to a true Battletech Simulation. Yes, this includes pilot effects, such as consciousness, delerium, fatigue, the whole schabang of MaxTech and other aspects, too. In theory, you could find yourself shooting at a hallucination if you let the heat get too high while fatigued.

For a prime example of some of the material that has influenced this, check out this series of posts. Specifically, in that Megamek battle, follow the Blackhawk (Nova) of Phoenix mechs versus the first half of the Invasion first wave.

Everything I mentioned you will find there, short of the hallucinations (the maxtech aspect and fatigue aspects were not in the ruleset we used sadly). But the struggle that Nova went through, it is absolutely amazing. Above and beyond the call of duty. And in the end, all but 2 double heatsinks had melted, and he was finally at the point where hopping around on one leg, with one arm, with no torso twist, with a two out of three crit engine generating 1 heat per second (10 per turn), it became nearly impossible to manage heat. Jumping to escape from the Battlemaster. Pot shotting with 3/7th power ER MLs. Piloting checks at every leap, at almost every hit received, at every attempt to move as another heatsink melts and another one follows it. The absolute struggle of it all -- caused by being so foolish as to alpha strike 8 of the 12 ER medium lasers, which essentially fried a heatsink and went unnoticed. Just frying them one by one...

That is what the Deteriorating Rate concept is attempting to recreate.

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2015 - 06:15 PM.






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