38 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Decker]

I think a lot of Warhawk pilots agree that the current fixed criticals and HS are really hurting the chassis. I really appreciate that the developers have mostly stuck with canon values and construction rules but it hurts the Warhawk's viability as a competitive chassis. The BT construction rules wouldn't cause the same issues since fixed criticals and equipment could still be allocated to different areas. As it is, however, the Warhawk suffers from too many glaring weaknesses:

1) Ferro-Fibrous is the worst upgrade for an assault mech. Not only does it use much needed critical space and provide negligible tonnage, it also make stripping armor less effective. With FF, you have to strip more to get an appreciable amount of tonnage back. A mech with standard armor can easily recover a ton or more from the head and legs. Warhawk can't strip more than 1 ton without hurting survivability. By itself , FF wouldn't be a dealbreaker except...

2) 10 tons and 20 critical slots are locked into heatsinks. This becomes 10 tons of dead weight when carrying ballistic weapons and makes dual gauss possible but cringeworthy. Sure you can run dual gauss but don't expect to have any kind of useful backup weapons. This also brings the number of locked critical spaces to 27 with FF. But it gets even better.

3) An entire side torso is completely locked. For a mech that already suffers from space issues and a lack of hardpoints, all 3 variants use an identical side torso omnipod devoid of any free space, hardpoints, or quirks. This makes the Warhawk the least customizable of any clan chassis and presents yet another glaring weakness...

4) No ability to spread ammunition. Since ammo feeds from the CT first, if you happen to lose the side that can store ammo, that's usually all you have left. A single component loss renders an 85-ton mech utterly useless unless it's an energy-boat. In a competitive environment, smart pilots would intentionally focus this point when they see a ballistic loadout.

5) Limited hardpoints are also not a dealbreaker but they force pilots to gravitate toward a build that focuses on a few of the heaviest weapons. If you use ballistics you are essentially throwing away 10 tons that could be better used on ammunition or backup weapons. A lack of torso energy hardpoints also means that such builds are completely vulnerable to problem 4.

None of these issues alone would merit a change but together they really limit the chassis. As much as I love the Warhawk, it just isn't worth the money (and eventually C-Bills) when there are other, far more competitive choices. If you want to run a fast mech with heavy armament, the Timber Wolf has considerably more hardpoints, speed, free slots, and nearly the same amount of tonnage for weaponry. If loading up on heavy energy and/or ballistic weapons is your thing, the Dire Wolf is far superior.

I think that the removal of 1 or 2 fixed heatsinks from the locked side torso or legs would alleviate a lot of these issues. It would allow pilots using ammunition-based builds to spread their ammo as well as freeing up a few tons for cool-running builds. Also, having an entire side torso devoid of hardpoint options, free space, and even quirks makes this the least-Omni Omnimech in the game. I'm ok with the Warhawk being a focused specialist and the limited hardpoints ensure this, but I think it should be able to specialize in areas other than just energy boating.

Edited by Malcolm Decker, 02 July 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Pkunk]

I think the Warhawk is arguably the best mech in the game. The firepower to speed ratio is just insane. Although I agree that the WHK may not be as versitile as most other mechs, I think that when you look at builds like
WHK-B
or this
WHK-PRIME
or this
WHK-A
there's plenty of variation to be had. And that's without switching omnipods.

Edited by Pkunk, 02 July 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Summon3r]

considering you can go 3srm6, 2lpl, 3mpl and have next to no heat issues this thing is a beast. thats just one extremely fun brawling build.

exceptional blend of firepower and speed love it

[Malcolm Decker]

If played right, a decent pilot can do well with the Warhawk, but the same could be said for just about any mech in the game. Right now it is totally outclassed by it's lighter and heavier counterparts. The meager 5 tons of free podspace you gain over the Timber Wolf isn't worth the loss of 20kph, hardpoints, and JJ's while the additional 20kph gained over the Dire Wolf isn't worth the loss of 20 tons of podspace, free criticals, and more hardpoints than most people know what to do with.

Sure, brawler builds like pulse/SRM or single ballistic and laser/SRM work, but they are better on the Timber Wolf. At the same time, 2 Gauss/2PPC Dire Wolves trump the Warhawk in the pinpoint meta sniper role. The point is that a 27 million C-Bill assault omnimech should have a little more utility than it does now. I can't really think of any role the Warhawk can fill that couldn't be done better by a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf.

Edited by Malcolm Decker, 04 July 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

It's a clan awesome.

I pity the foo who bought thors and warhawks. Might as well rename it the peace bird, because it's not capable of doing much warring.

[Duke Nedo]

Imo this is an excellent LRM platform, but otherwise it is a bit behind. Not too bad though, its rather the Timberwolf being too good than then Warhawk being too bad...

[Modo44]

2xERPPC+Gauss+3xML, STD300 Misery vs 2xCERPPC+CGauss+2xCERML, XL340 Warhawk. So terribad indeed.

[The Great Unwashed]

You're only saying that because it is much faster, has better alpha and damage/s output, has all the weapons in the arms so you can hardly miss, an XL engine that refuses to explode, better torso twist and better heat efficiency, but the Misery is really much better because it doesn't have low arms

Or you turn it into a WHK-B NOVA

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 04 July 2014 - 01:49 AM.

[Malcolm Decker]

Vassago Rain, on 04 July 2014 - 12:54 AM, said:

It's a clan awesome.

This pretty much sums it up. The most effective Warhawk builds still work better on the Stalker. With so many people running running 80+ kph heavies and Victors, you still aren't fast enough to prevent being left behind by an incompetent team and you don't have the armor or weapons to fight like a slow assault.

Going by the clan package pricing, this is supposed to be an upper tier mech but it just doesn't feel worth it compared to most of the other clan chassis.

[Claviger]

OP: I concur with your assessment. Like any mech it can be made to work, in certain builds, piloted by the right people. That said, I have had numerous instances of 2v1 WHK/WHK or WHK/DW against my DW and won all of them. The WHK, while it can pack a pretty solid punch, is easy to pick apart from range.

A DW is currently vastly superior in every aspect except two: Speed, Missiles. If a pilot can compensate for the slower speed, and doesn't use LRMs, well the DW is the clear choice.

That said, a WHK with lots of ER LL does indeed hurt

[HashBee]

Right now the Direwolf is a better assault mech in every way. Warhawk just can't fit enough weapons. If you want to be fast like a heavy, you're better going with an actual heavy.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Only thing I would change about my Warhawk is unlocking the seven DHS that are speckled along her frame, but I still pity those that underestimate the machine: I'll take my Warhawk over a Dire Whale any day of the week.

[Modo44]

Quit whining. It is still easily stronger than non-jumping IS assaults.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I dunno, but this build looks fun: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8df6d31b10f1199

[HashBee]

Modo44, on 07 July 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Quit whining. It is still easily stronger than non-jumping IS assaults.

So are the timberwolf, summoner, and probably stormcrow. And IS assaults don't lose all of their ammo when one side gets shot off. That's a pretty big liability for an 85 tonner.

Edited by HashBee, 07 July 2014 - 12:42 PM.

[Modo44]

You are allowed to use arms and the CT. Quit whining, learn to play.

[Malcolm Decker]

Modo44, on 07 July 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

You are allowed to use arms and the CT. Quit whining, learn to play.

If you read the original post you would recall that center torso ammo gets used first. CT only holds 7 volleys of large AC shells. By the time you lose your side torso, that ammo should already be gone.

As far as arms go, if you are running LBX20's you have 0 free criticals so good luck getting ammo in them. If you run double UAC20's thats 1 free slot per arm so if you lose your ammo side, you have a whopping 7 shots left. If you run twin Gauss you might as well weigh 75 tons because you are stuck with 10 tons of heatsinks that literally do nothing.

And before you come back with "only run one ballistic" and some variation of "quit whining, L2P", I can run a single ballistic build better on a Timber Wolf, especially PPC/Gauss. The original point of this thread was that, because of the number and placement of locked criticals, the Warhawk is pretty much worthless as anything but a heavy energy boat (something a Dire Wolf still does better). Does this mean you can't get 1000+ damage games in the Warhawk? No. Does it mean you would do even better in a Dire or Timber Wolf? Absolutely.

Edited by Malcolm Decker, 07 July 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[Modo44]

Yeah, any AC20 mech will have to put ammo elsewhere. Take the safe XL, heavy mech speed and silly cooling, and ******* use it. You are already in pay to win territory with that "underpowered" thing.

[Tesunie]

Malcolm Decker, on 02 July 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

4) No ability to spread ammunition. Since ammo feeds from the CT first, if you happen to lose the side that can store ammo, that's usually all you have left. A single component loss renders an 85-ton mech utterly useless unless it's an energy-boat. In a competitive environment, smart pilots would intentionally focus this point when they see a ballistic loadout.

5) Limited hardpoints are also not a dealbreaker but they force pilots to gravitate toward a build that focuses on a few of the heaviest weapons. If you use ballistics you are essentially throwing away 10 tons that could be better used on ammunition or backup weapons. A lack of torso energy hardpoints also means that such builds are completely vulnerable to problem 4.

Just for the record, I don't own any clan mechs, so I can't say too much, but... (and if anything is wrong, I'm sorry. Just inform me what I'm wrong about so I can know/look into it specifically.)

4. You can place your ammo in other places. I typically would place my ammo in the same section that contains the guns for said ammo. All clan mechs come with "free" case in all sections of their mech. If you have ACs in the arm, place your ammo for it in the arms as well. You aren't really risking much. Spread that ammo out. Having that locked side torso (with no hard points) isn't much of a problem really. Fill it with other things then.

5. Use a variety of weapons maybe? A couple of CERLLs to compliment those ACs might be more viable (and better for the long run) than an all AC build I would think. Or even CERMLs could work... But I can see the 10 sinks being a problem in customizing. However, I've seen some really nasty and deadly Warhawk builds out there, so I don't think this has been hindering people too much...

(Mostly posting to respond to point 4... Just saying...)

[DLFReporter]

The Warhawk is a beast. It's heat management is almost perfect imho.
The locked hardpoints are a great compensation for the stronger clan weapons.