44 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

I like the solo-only queue. It did nothing to my w/l and it's a lot of fun. Being in ELO-heaven (low to midrange) is pretty cool right now.

[Blackscreen]

So let me see if I am getting it straight:

Solo drop players are now upset they have no small premades to anchor/carry them, leaving them with 11 other PuG players in their group. Carry harder is too hard now.

Small group players are upset because they can no longer drop with 2-3 of their friends and ROFLstomp PuG players; now their 2-4 players are getting ROFLstomped by the evil tryhard competetive P2W metatard poptart jerkfaces who have groups of 5+.

Groups that can drop 12 are the new evil premades.

Is this right?

[Kjudoon]

Blackscreen, on 17 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

So let me see if I am getting it straight:

Solo drop players are now upset they have no small premades to anchor/carry them, leaving them with 11 other PuG players in their group. Carry harder is too hard now.

Small group players are upset because they can no longer drop with 2-3 of their friends and ROFLstomp PuG players; now their 2-4 players are getting ROFLstomped by the evil tryhard competetive P2W metatard poptart jerkfaces who have groups of 5+.

Groups that can drop 12 are the new evil premades.

Is this right?

Nooooooot quite.... but very close.

The solo only queue is proving that the small premades were not as big an issue as once thought. As someone has pointed out "Teamwork is OP". Although it was an attempt at mockery, there is some truth to that. Teamwork WILL be better than going it alone. You're not Rambo. You cannot just 'get this' or carry hard enough necessarily on your own.

Small groups are maybe part of a competative company, maybe not. In a 4 man they may dominate a match, but they won't usually be the reason for a roflstomp. Usually. It's like getting bit by 1 or 2 mosquitos, not several thousand. Irritating if they get you in the wrong place, but hardly life threatening and a nightmarish scenario as plays out with most 12mans stomping PUGS faster than they do less dedicated/skilled teams in tournaments.

The problem in the Group Queue is there is no place left for the casual 'just want to have fun with friends, win a couple, lose a couple, but always able to show I did something other than die quickly' player. You're either the stomper or the stompee. Your only High School Varsity or Intramural skill in comparison and these 12mans are Class A college, Arena Football or NFL level of play. Of course you lose and lose badly unless the other team deliberately loses... which never happens.

The (not so) new boogyman in the solo queue are the 'sync drops'. Those who have actually DONE sync drops know that it's a blast to do because it's the only way to group up without being handed over to 12mans for quick dispatch. Most times a large group of 12-40 end up with only 2-4 on their team and vice versa. Same thing as the queue was before except you can't control who in your mass drop you'll be with. The best drop I ever saw was 9v9 on the same team and it was no roflstomp with everyone on both sides in the same channel.

The sad news is you can NEVER get rid of sync drops. At least I can't see a way. The good news is that most of these guys are just screwing around and really not coordinating too hard either. Many have trial mechs or joke builds or are drunk... just there to have fun.

So there it is in a nutshell. If you do not want to compete with competative groups, and you don't want to pug anymore, you have no place left to go.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Blackscreen, on 17 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Is this right?

For the solo part: No. For the group part: No idea.

[ShinVector]

Thorn Hallis, on 17 July 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

For the solo part: No. For the group part: No idea.

Here is my take on this:
People who 'must win' will take the most META builds to win.. But this is not enough 1 person can only do so, much.. Must win people usually have higher ELO due to higher win/loss average.
If he were to go SOLO queue now. ELO MM will often match this dude with maybe 11 not good ELO players to average things out with the opposing team. This often leads to a bad experience for the 'Must Win' types.
To workaround is problem. Gather the most OP bunch of team mates possible. The more the better for them.

The People who just want to have fun and less on winning. (ME and some other here !)
Now has happen is because those dudes are usually in groups.. We now never meet them in SOLO queue in their in their usual groups.
We just try our best to carry the team when possible.
SOLO queue has much less META mechs but unfortunately now they have been a significant increase in LRM and Streak usage due to the recent patch..
But can you still run non META builds and have fun.

Edited by ShinVector, 17 July 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[Kjudoon]

ShinVector, on 17 July 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

Here is my take on this:
People who 'must win' will take the most META builds to win.. But this is not enough 1 person can only do so, much.. Must win people usually have higher ELO due to higher win/loss average.
If he were to go SOLO queue now. ELO MM will often match this dude with maybe 11 not good ELO players to average things out with the opposing team. This often leads to a bad experience for the 'Must Win' types.
To workaround is problem. Gather the most OP bunch of team mates possible. The more the better for them.

The People who just want to have fun. (ME and some other here !)
Now has happen is because those dudes are usually in groups.. We now never meet them in SOLO queue in their in their usual groups.
We just try our best to carry the team when possible.
SOLO queue has much less META mechs but unfortunately now they have been a significant increase in LRM and Streak usage due to the recent patch..
But can you still run non META builds and have fun.

On the whole I agree with you. I know I know, you're glad you're sitting, right Shin?

But you run the meta Firestarter in most of your videos, dude.

I seem to be getting placed either out of my elo, or I have somehow had my elo artificially inflated... but the sad reality is if Elo is based on Win Loss... I'm remarkably average. In fact, here's my total win/loss:

Wins / Losses 1,592 / 1,703 (Pre reset)
Wins / Losses 524 / 507 (Post Reset)
Wins / Losses 2,116 / 2210 (Total)

that's a 0.957 blah blah winning average.

Depressingly also, my KDR has been plummetting as of recent days too, so... I still don't know why I'm getting placed in groups that continually get their heads stove in by pros or with PUGs that make me just want to cry in frustration.

So I really wonder what Elo is based on then? If it's KDR, boy, that would explain it I guess. But also, if I team up with guys of much lower skill, I should be doing better too, but I'm not.

Of course, this wasn't so bad with having just lances compared to what it is now. That's why I would love to see a 1-4 Queue initiated and a 5+ Queue for groups. It would be just like the traditional queue with those solo players who want to opt in, and cut out the 5+ Queue to fight with the big boys competatively as the new toy.

I have a suspicion things would improve dramatically at the cost of MARGINALLY longer wait times... which I'm fine with. If we're not having fun, its time to find something else to do, right?

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

On the whole I agree with you. I know I know, you're glad you're sitting, right Shin?
But you run the meta Firestarter in most of your videos, dude.

Hmmm... Most if not all Ember videos are before True Solo. And technically it is the Optimised Stock Build !
Meanwhile you noticed me having fun with 4 Flamers and 4 MGs... hehehe... You will get owned by META if try to run builds like that in the past.

*On stupid unrelated news.. Why the HELL does Flamers have Ghost Heat !?!?! Yep ! It does 4 Flamer's heat gets hotter exponentially faster... Dammit PGI ! But luckily it is quite easy to control though.

--

Wins / Losses 6,924 / 4,338 (Pre reset)
Wins / Losses 761 / 541 (Post Reset)
Wins / Losses 7,685 / 4879 (Total)

1.575.... Slowly dropping over time... Oh well... Good... Enough with the Evil Pre-mades and their META..

You probably spot on.. Faster match making with for less 'fair' matches... I do believe ELO MM does not care about mech class... Eg. Mid ELO Light pilot vs. Mid ELO META Heavy Pilot... ELO MM says.. "Good Enough ! GO !"

Edited by ShinVector, 17 July 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Well, MM is supposed to care about mech class, but now that I think about it, they need to consider recreating "Combat Value" based on loadout, chassis, modules and equipment. That way if you balance the CV AND the win/loss and KDR ratios of players, you really WOULD be among peers on equal equipment footing.

[wanderer]

Quote

Also, you seem to think people get mashed when the other group is "better." Not always so matey. Try 4 small groups vs an 11 man all chain dropping consumables on cooldown with ALL the heaviest mechs in their group-not fun. Before you MIGHT have had a 4 man with maybe another 2 man on the enemy team.
Trust me, it's a LOT different.
You however, seem to be brimming with joy that people who made an effort and got a couple of peeps together are now being punished by being force fed to 9+ comp teams as "practice."

Actually, I'm just happy to see no groups in a queue that's marked "solo".

You sync drop to get your group in there? No. GTFO. My sandbox is not your litterbox.

Am I happy small groups get shafted by large groups? Not really, but it also means I don't see lances of those selfsame really good types carrying entire PUGs and shafting THEM in the PUG queues anymore. I used to have days where my little 4-man would end up with more than 50% of the kills and total damage, game after game, win or loss...and the folks I play with generally are only average-decent-good, not "I will rip you in half in two salvos" types.

Quote

Beating 4 peeps on TS is a LOT easier than beating 12. What will you do when CW comes out and this will be your lot too? Might be our turn to catch the tears no?

I'll rejoice, actually. CW is organized, large-scale play. It is the rightful domain of large, well-organized groups to dominate in, and at that point I fully expect that people participating in it will have the brain cells to get into TS and get full or near-full groups together to do things. Casual, smaller and irregular groups are fodder until they get the common sense to form alliances that result in at least minimally full groups to engage other factions with. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never played in any PvP beyond endless rounds of no-consequence FPS matches. Teamwork is OP. Again.
Meanwhile, everyone who doesn't give a flying fig will simply still be playing in the solo queues, and the non-CW group queues will likely be taken over by smaller,casual groups as the serious, larger ones have to spend their time in CW fights instead. This should actually make more people happy.

And sync droppers will still be bottom-feeders. No excuses are viable ones to pull "I wanna have my group in the solo queue". Handicap ELO more towards larger groups to push them more into their own bracket, but that's about it.

[wanderer]

Quote

The sad news is you can NEVER get rid of sync drops. At least I can't see a way. The good news is that most of these guys are just screwing around and really not coordinating too hard either. Many have trial mechs or joke builds or are drunk... just there to have fun.

Put a random 0-90 second delay in between "you push button" and "player is injected into solo queue".

If the MM is slotting me a minute after the next guy, my odds of syncing drop precipitously.

Edited by wanderer, 18 July 2014 - 03:40 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

So I really wonder what Elo is based on then?

It's not based on win/loss, but on against who you won and lost (so yeah, basicly it's still win/loss, just that some wins and losses matter more then others ).

[ManaValkyrie]

Wanderer, just in case you missed my earlier point, the solo system is fine. I am happy to go into the solo system and have fun, I mentioned the synch dropping as it is still possible to do into the solo system. (The solo system is great for very mixed bag matches, you get a good range of fights from lopsided one way or another to almost last man standing matches.) However, we did it as an unwind and meet and greet evening for various units.

There was no PUGStomping, because our players ended up randomly scattered over games and teams and were too busy trying to get each other rather than 'co-ordinate' and stomp, because we made sure that everyone on whatever game/team was in the same chat channel, so you couldn't co-ordinate even if you wanted to.

The majority of the time I play in the group system, where initially when it came out, groups of 2-3's were being lumped together against 10/12 man teams, and some of those matches were like the old fashion group synch drops in the old system, i.e. absolute rolls.

[Kjudoon]

wanderer, on 18 July 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Put a random 0-90 second delay in between "you push button" and "player is injected into solo queue".

If the MM is slotting me a minute after the next guy, my odds of syncing drop precipitously.

Doesn't quite work. Go try some sync drops and see for yourself. Some of us, if we grab a weight class we have a high elo in can wait 5-7 minutes for a drop while others drop instantly on a different map/match. If there is no match, the elo starts to spread, and finally you will get a match and often regret it.

I should mention from what I've heard, CW is not going to be quite the balm for this problem you think it is... unless you attach all the required economic aspects to it. While I suppose the 'arena' style we currently have will exist, the small group is going to continue to get shafted in CW, but not as bad as solo players who will be shoved into the groups to act as 'local militia' to fill out 12mans for contract fulfillment in CW.

The only way to avoid this will be to stay out of CW completely, which will really suck for those solo players and non-competative groups unless they go to a tier based system where certain groups are forcibly kept out.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 July 2014 - 06:47 AM.

[Lokisonn]

The sad thing about casual groups is that they are in some kind of limbo. Push them into group only and they get hit hard by competitive groups (especially larger ones). Having said that, groups will always have an advantage over solo players even if the groups are just playing casual and joking around. The advantage of instant communication cannot be underestimated (unless all you're doing is chatting about your day with no attempt at all to even remotely call targets or position)

I've been away for a while but I've been following the forums. I played solo a lot and didn't really mind having 1 group of 4 a side. The crux of the issue is the lack of quick communication tools for the solo players. I do not quite understand why if we can already call in arty and launch UAVs that the same system cannot allow us to click on the screen to mark enemy positions and way points on the map or maybe have a button that you can spam calling for help (and your icon flashes on the screen and map).

My current thought is that these 3 things will likely be sufficient to even out things between solo and small groups and we can allow groups back in the queue. The risk of course is perhaps occasionally having uber competitive 4-mans bringing their well oiled drills into the casual queue but I'll be tempted to shrug off the loss and keep going

Edited by Lokisonn, 18 July 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Kjudoon]

If you think about it, there's going to be a lot of different queues to come if you want this right. That will make for a better gameplay, but longer wait times for a while.

Arena Style
Solo Queue, Lance Queue, Company Queue.

Simply put, this is go bash head time as we have since closed beta. Nothing here changes save having a way for casual players group. You're still going to get sync drops, but nowhere near as bad as now. Company Queue would be the place for competative public play and the Solo Queue would be the place for all those solo tournies we've been seeing.

Community Warfare Style

Militia Queue, Company Queue

The Militia Queue for contract fulfillment would be fleshed out with lone wolves and other non contracted companies to share in completing the mission. From all the rumors and reports I get, this is how the lone wolves and independents are going to flesh out the CW game. They are fodder even moreso than mercs are to the houses. The Company Queue is just the large group queue without any militia fill ins used by groups of 6 and higher I would expect. At least that's how I'd visualize it from tidbits I've heard. This would also be where the real money/xp and impact would be. Sort of the difference between solo scenario and campaign mode in some games. One to pass the time, the other to play in something bigger.

Most group tournies are now private matches, so they won't be part of this.

[ShinVector]

Too many queue means too much segmentation.. I think it would be a bad idea, if it results in super long wait times.

What we have right now is pretty much Team Arena mode...

What we are now waiting for and to my understanding the Devs are building right now and trying to release it before the end of the year.. CW..

Lokisonn, on 18 July 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

The sad thing about casual groups is that they are in some kind of limbo. Push them into group only and they get hit hard by competitive groups (especially larger ones). Having said that, groups will always have an advantage over solo players even if the groups are just playing casual and joking around. The advantage of instant communication cannot be underestimated (unless all you're doing is chatting about your day with no attempt at all to even remotely call targets or position)

I've been away for a while but I've been following the forums. I played solo a lot and didn't really mind having 1 group of 4 a side. The crux of the issue is the lack of quick communication tools for the solo players. I do not quite understand why if we can already call in arty and launch UAVs that the same system cannot allow us to click on the screen to mark enemy positions and way points on the map or maybe have a button that you can spam calling for help (and your icon flashes on the screen and map).

My current thought is that these 3 things will likely be sufficient to even out things between solo and small groups and we can allow groups back in the queue. The risk of course is perhaps occasionally having uber competitive 4-mans bringing their well oiled drills into the casual queue but I'll be tempted to shrug off the loss and keep going

I rather take it as what goes around comes around... Karma !
Evil pre made 4 mans used to have an advantage against SOLO puggers...
Now SOLO pug is in their own queue.. You want a more 'fairer' ELO match.. Go SOLO.

Groups are all together... Bigger and better group.. Destroys smaller group... (Usually) LOL..

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[ManaValkyrie]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I rather take it as what goes around comes around... Karma !
Evil pre made 4 mans used to have an advantage against SOLO puggers...
Now SOLO pug is in their own queue.. You want a more 'fairer' ELO match.. Go SOLO.

Groups are all together... Bigger and better group.. Destroys smaller group... (Usually) LOL..

Funny you were in a group match with me earlier Shin

[ShinVector]

ManaValkyrie, on 18 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Funny you were in a group match with me earlier Shin

Hmmm... Checking Shadowplay videos.. Are.. Found you...
Looks like the Liao-Kurita alliance beat the scrap out of Clanner-Steiner team.. Good stuff...


*Should up in an hour.

The Steiner's got their revenge on us later when up against their 12 MAN with 4 team mates that did 0-100 damage... Hiaz..

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[Kjudoon]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Too many queue means too much segmentation.. I think it would be a bad idea, if it results in super long wait times.

What we have right now is pretty much Team Arena mode...

What we are now waiting for and to my understanding the Devs are building right now and trying to release it before the end of the year.. CW..




I rather take it as what goes around comes around... Karma !
Evil pre made 4 mans used to have an advantage against SOLO puggers...
Now SOLO pug is in their own queue.. You want a more 'fairer' ELO match.. Go SOLO.

Groups are all together... Bigger and better group.. Destroys smaller group... (Usually) LOL..

yes, you are right. the Elo is more balanced because nobody's averaging it out or hiding it. That said, the playstyle is far far worse of all self centered rambo wanabees... the very people I stay out of skirmish mode for AND reason I almost rage quit before joining a group and discovering the real nature of this game.

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 18 July 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

yes, you are right. the Elo is more balanced because nobody's averaging it out or hiding it. That said, the playstyle is far far worse of all self centered rambo wanabees... the very people I stay out of skirmish mode for AND reason I almost rage quit before joining a group and discovering the real nature of this game.

Remember Group (Formerly 4MAN) is one thing... 12 Man Vs 12 Man.. another different monster... Very tense matches... Hopefully it will return with more people in CW.