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Clan Vs. Is Balance?


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#21 Pezzer

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:46 PM

Currently, Clan Mechs have the range and long-duration alpha damage advantage. They reach farther and punch harder with long-duration beams and high-heat PPCs/laser-like ACs, but that cuts into their DPS and survivability. They can't torso twist for crap, either, when compared to IS Mechs. This means lots of face-time, which doesn't help thier cone- or box-heads. Clan Mechs make up for this by only dying to HS/CT/both side torso destructions though. Their "superior" technology also allows them to boat more weapons for the same or slightly less tonnage, but at the expense of fixed speeds, weight-inducing fixed heat sinks, and fixed jump-jets.

Taking a glance at the current balance situation, who woulda guessed it but the Trial of Everything Clans have an advantage at range and when dueling while the Inner Sphere is better at dps/brawling and speed. Also, IS LRMs and ACs are straight-up better if you know how to use em. The Clans are more forgiving with their burst-fire ACs but totally unforgiving in every other way. They can't twist, they overheat, and they require really good aim and opportunistic tactics. I've played with a guy that uses almost all beams on a Timberwolf and averages 1000 damage per match, and I've seen heavily-armed SRM Timberwolves do only 160 damage. It all depends on your skill level and tactics.

Also, remember: while Clan beams do more damage per beam duration and have more range than IS lasers, they also produce much more heat. Don't call OP when that Timberwolf does 800 damage on the other team, only to go and overheat 5 times the next match that you don't get to see.

To sum it up, Clans aren't OP. They're difficult to use but effective in the right hands with the right build, just like any other Mech. I'm actually doing 100 less damage per match atm (when compared to IS), still trying to get used to them heh

P.S. I know you're going to hate me for saying this, but I would suggest performing a topic search before making a new post. This is the 20th IS vs Clan thread that I've seen pop up, and that's just from my daily glance at the forums. You're lucky though, because this is the 1st or 2nd one that I've replied to (now that I've played the IS vs Clan dynamic from both sides, I feel well-informed enough to actually make a post concerning the balancing)!

Edited by Pezzer, 11 July 2014 - 10:51 PM.


#22 Autobot9000

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 03:49 AM

Direwolf needs a buff to his CT hitbox tbh, that mech has already weak agility, huge problems with torso twisting due to lack of agility and strongly limited twist angle (45 degrees?), but this CT hitbox...

#23 Sahrang

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:10 AM

clan mechs all have too much missile hardpoints. this makes them superior to IS arsenal.
when all clan mechs will be released in c-bills, no one will play IS mechs anymore, except those who don't have enough c-bills.

#24 Grey Black

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:36 AM

View PostSahrang, on 12 July 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

clan mechs all have too much missile hardpoints. this makes them superior to IS arsenal.
when all clan mechs will be released in c-bills, no one will play IS mechs anymore, except those who don't have enough c-bills.


To be fair, IS never uses any missiles anyway. I forget who said it, but if every IS mech took an LRM5 every match if they were able to, it would be about the same effect as the Clan mech effect.

#25 Escef

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:10 AM

View PostSahrang, on 12 July 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

clan mechs all have too much missile hardpoints. this makes them superior to IS arsenal.
when all clan mechs will be released in c-bills, no one will play IS mechs anymore, except those who don't have enough c-bills.

I just ended my live stream for the morning using a BLR-1S and got better results than I did with my Warhawks so far. If you imagine that Inner Sphere can't compete than your imaginings have scant to do with reality. I expect that you'd still get your hindquarters handed to you regardless of what your opponents used.

Edited by Escef, 12 July 2014 - 07:11 AM.


#26 Autobot9000

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:13 AM

View PostSahrang, on 12 July 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

clan mechs all have too much missile hardpoints. this makes them superior to IS arsenal.
when all clan mechs will be released in c-bills, no one will play IS mechs anymore, except those who don't have enough c-bills.


Objectively wrong and nonsense.

#27 TercieI

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:14 AM

I have a Masakari pack and I'm already drifting back to the best of my IS mechs. The clans' floor may be higher, but the ceiling is lower in most cases.

Edited by Terciel1976, 12 July 2014 - 07:15 AM.


#28 kravkalash

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:38 AM

Clans are somewhat limited by the mechlab, but that affects some chassis more than others. Light mechs being stuck with mediocre engines for example is a bad thing if you want to play a true light mech - they still work as mediums though, because of their superior weapons (most notably LRMs with half weight, lasers with more damage and significant range increase, 6t 2slot ER ppcs, gauss rifle 3 tons lighter...).

I strongly dislike that you can't play light mechs anymore, because you get lasered to bits at silly distances (1.000m +). At those distances, clan lasers are better than gauss or ER ppcs, because they hit immediately.

#29 Sahrang

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 11:02 AM

View PostAutobot9000, on 12 July 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:


Objectively wrong and nonsense.


the fact that no one will play IS mechs anymore?

#30 MasterBLB

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:37 AM

Well,that'd be all about "OPness" of the clan mechs.
Mine team - only two clan mechs,me in Stormcrow,and another guy in Madcat.
Enemy team - six clan mechs,and seems they had advantage in total tonnage(didn't sum their weight).
And here is the result:
Posted Image
Yep,I scored 7 kills,true - but not due to Stormcrow (2xLL 5xML) is OP,but because my teammates were competent players able to severely damage/open enemies and we cooperated quite nicely.

That'd would be all about "non-existing anymore IS mechs" I presume.

#31 Magna Canus

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:11 AM

I do not own any Clan Mechs as of yet (waiting for the C-Bill release). It has taken a while to get used to the new mechanics and tactics. One thing I agree with is that since most clan mechs can add LRMs as an after thought that has increased the number that I have seen on the field. The more Clan mechs with LRMs on the field the more deadly things get. It was mentioned above that it would be similar to IS mechs bringing 1xLRM5 each, but due to limited slots/tons that is often not an option and at least in my stable I have few mechs with Missle hardpoints to begin with.

One thing that has changed for me due to the longer range of the Clan lasers is the necessity to take cover from even farther away than I would normally need to and slowly work my way forward from that longer distance. It has also increased the need to be able to FLD your damage even more than before, so PPCs have replaced nearly all of my LL and ERLL slots. Due to weight/slots I can fit maybe 2 LL where a clanner can fit 4 ERML or more. Heat plays a role, but as someone else noted, how often are you in a 1v1 situation?

All in all as a pure IS pilot in the moment I would say that the clans are different, but not OP. One thing they do do is make making mistakes that much worse (i.e. rounding a corner into a Direwhales alpha....).

#32 Gasoline

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:17 AM

Clan mechs are pretty balanced. The hitboxes seem to be okay-ish. The Summoner seems to be the big underdog, but it suffers from that nasty pin-point alpha striking meta (poor stock armor).

Clan beam weapons have a problem tho (then again, beam weapons in general have a problem). Koniving already did a great write-up on the issues, so I'll just give the extreme example.

With the introduction of the Targeting Computer Clan ER Large Lasers are the closest to OP you can get. This thing does damage up to 1,780m by default, cram in a Targeting Computer Mk. VII and it reaches out as far as 2,047m max., full damage up to 1,023.5m. It produces less heat than intended (8.5 compared to TT 12) and more damage (11.25 to TT 10). The half a second more beam time is annoying at times, but can't really offset the benefits.

The IS ER Large Laser has the same issue (heat: 8.5 to TT 12, damage: 9 to TT 8), but it didn't get any bonus of the Command Console and we won't see any IS Targeting Computers anytime soon (3062 for the first).

I won't elaborate on the crappy long range meta here...

Clan AC's are fine as they are. Heck, I would even make all autocannons burst fire... :P

Missiles are fine as well. I have yet to make good use of the SSRMs tho, they seem to spread all over the place and take forever to reload. Easier to just use SRMs (lighter even with Artemis, faster to reload). LRMs are very light, but get eaten by AMS easily.

IS is still king of the front-loaded pin point damage. Clan mechs are pretty limited to the Gauss and ER PPC in that. Also most Clan mechs run significantly hotter than their IS counterparts, so you have to be a bit more sensitive on the trigger.

Edit: typos

Edited by Gasoline, 14 July 2014 - 02:18 AM.


#33 ShadowFighter88

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:52 AM

I think the best example of how balanced they are is that you get so many diverse opinions. When you get so many people saying one thing and about as many saying the other then they must be at least somewhat balanced.

And there's at least one design aspect people seem to not have noticed (or at least that I didn't see in this thread; I might've just skimmed over it) - barring certain builds on certain 'mechs, Clan 'mechs aren't as good at going hull-down as some IS 'mechs. The Jagermech and Blackjack are the most blatant examples of this thanks to their high-mounted arms, but think about how many IS machines have predominantly torso-mounted weapons mounted high enough for the pilot to mask a lot of the body behind a ridge or hill. Battlemasters, Hunchbacks, energy-focused Cataphracts and so-on. Now look at where most Clan 'mechs have their weapons mounted - in low-slung arms. A Clan 'mech in a hull-down position will (in most cases) be exposing a lot more of their body than an IS one. The Stormcrow in particular, thanks to how low-mounted the cockpit is.

#34 SethAbercromby

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:57 AM

I feel that it is still too soon to call the clanner 'Mechs anything yet. Right now, the people using them are almost split into 2 sides. Veterans that have full control over their loadout and know exactly what they're doing and then there's the "lulz, I gots a MadCat now" kind of people that completely overestimate the Clan 'Mechs capabilities in light of the current balancing measurements and tend to do very poorly.

So we got people sceaming bloody murder to nerf Clans because of the people playing extremely well in them and the people playing really poorly, asking for buffs because why the hell not.

#35 IraqiWalker

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:19 AM

View PostSahrang, on 12 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:


the fact that no one will play IS mechs anymore?


That, and the rest of the post.

The first weapon you picked was the Clan LRM, hands down, THE worst weapon in the game, that is not a flamer.
Secondly, the point of "superiority" you argued was that clans could fit more LRMs, and established that to give them an advantage. While forgetting that LRMs in general are one of the worst weapons out there. As evidenced by the fact that in competitive play, no one uses LRMs.

Then you said no one would play IS mechs, when we know for a fact that there are many IS-only players out there. Not to mention that those who have actually studied both sides of the fence, know that clan and IS are pretty well balanced (not perfect, but close enough), so they will still play IS mechs.

Long story short, the only true part of your statement is that clan mechs can fit more LRM hardpoints than some IS mechs, and that's only partially true. (IS assault LRM boats: at least 3 different chassis. Clan assault LRM boats: almost none)

{Point of Reference: LRM boat here, means a mech that can launch a salvo of at least 4 missiles in one click)

#36 Karmen Baric

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:21 AM

Clan mechs are definitely more powerful, if you can mount more weapons on a same weight chassis then that chassis (Clan) is superior. Despite Clan weapons taking longer to fulfil the shear output they do stops many IS mechs in place, not to mention all the laser lights, jitter and shake if LRMS or AC are involved (all of which stops correctly targeted return fire). The only chance IS mechs have against Clan ones is in move and sniping, not in a brawl.

#37 ManaValkyrie

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:23 AM

View PostSethAbercromby, on 14 July 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

So we got people sceaming bloody murder to nerf Clans because of the people playing extremely well in them and the people playing really poorly, asking for buffs because why the hell not.


Let's be fair here, there would be plenty of players that play those mechs well, who if they were asked if there new favourite mech needed a nerf would tell you no... it needs a buff.

Personally though, from playing both IS mechs/clan mechs since release I think that for the most part the clan mechs are pretty well balanced.

#38 SethAbercromby

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:50 AM

View PostKarmen Baric, on 14 July 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Clan mechs are definitely more powerful, if you can mount more weapons on a same weight chassis then that chassis (Clan) is superior. Despite Clan weapons taking longer to fulfil the shear output they do stops many IS mechs in place, not to mention all the laser lights, jitter and shake if LRMS or AC are involved (all of which stops correctly targeted return fire). The only chance IS mechs have against Clan ones is in move and sniping, not in a brawl.

Also disagreeing with you there. I've been running my short range focused Misery almost exclusively the last few days and as long as I don't do stupid things, it indicriminately eats the faces of both IS and Clan 'Mechs.

PS:
STD300, LBX, ASRM6, 4xMLas, PPC

#39 That Dawg

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:12 AM

Quote

CLAN VS. IS BALANCE


clans OR balance

fixed the title for ya :P

blah blah, November is a long way off, and we sit and wait assuming...what?
Anyone think there will be a nerf when the Clan Mechs are available for fake money BWAHAHAHAHA...
Wont they introduce new real money mechs the same time...again?



and I still can't lose a side torso on my IS mech without dying.

#40 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:27 AM

View PostSethAbercromby, on 14 July 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

Also disagreeing with you there. I've been running my short range focused Misery almost exclusively the last few days and as long as I don't do stupid things, it indicriminately eats the faces of both IS and Clan 'Mechs.

PS:
STD300, LBX, ASRM6, 4xMLas, PPC


Funny enough thats fairly close to one of my favorite brawlhawks: lbx10, 4xASRM6 (Only doable on the WHK - B ) 1ERLL and 1 ERML. One of the many reasons iv been saying the warhawk is essentially a second generation stalker :P

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 14 July 2014 - 04:28 AM.






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