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Clan Vs. Is Balance?


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#61 Xune

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:34 AM

Its time they introduce some clan trail mechs. Then the uneducated stuff some people spout would not fall on such fertile ground.

#62 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:41 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 July 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

In fact, clan mechs excel at range. Brawling is where they lose HARD.


Yes thats exactly true, everyone should immediately go brawl every clan mech they see.



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#63 Nightmare1

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:42 AM

What I've found is that the Clans are like glass cannons; powerful yet fragile.

For kicks, I took my SHD-2D2 out for a spin to see how it compares. Got a crazy hair and ambushed a lance of Clan Mechs solo. They had a Nova, Daishi, Masakari, and a Mad Cat. I managed to rip the Daishi open like a Tuna can and turn his insides to red jelly. They brought me down before I could land the killing blow, but if I could've rolled the window down to spit in the Daishi's CT, it would've died. I figure that if I can do that with just a Shadowhawk, things aren't too out of whack.

Besides, I've found that going toe to toe with IS Mechs while piloting my Clan ones isn't a good strategy. The IS Mechs have less firepower than me, but they seem to absorb more damage. My Clan Mechs feel like they were designed to be snipers and skirmishers but not brawlers, while my IS Mechs feel like they can be anything.

#64 Gasoline

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:27 PM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Your snap shot, time exposed and erppc arguments are just covering a very very small piece of the game and are given with no context of how the game is actually played. Yay for front loaded IS AC damage, but the clan mechs carry MORE weapons, so even if they don't get all of their damage on the desired location the net result is usually more damage done to the desired location plus some damage to others.

Tell my Nova. Yay for having a lot of shiny lazors, when my arm is already gone when I turn a corner. It has a potential alpha of 66 damage (not that you could alpha strike them...) and 48 "hitpoints" (armor and structure) on the arms. To achieve max damage with my six ER Medium Lasers I need to keep my arm exposed for at least 1,3 seconds. Truth be told, to unfold that damage potential of more weapons you HAVE to expose yourself. You have longer beam times, you have burst firing AC's and you have no way of hill humping in any clan chassis. Ironically the "most feared" Clan builds sport just 3-4 weapons...

Then again, not everything is a Timber Wolf...

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yes clan pilots would take the regular old IS PPC, but not at the cost of their 2 slot double heat sinks or lower weight and slot weapons...

That wasn't the point we were trying to make. See it that way. IS has an option to mount a cooler weapon with lower recycle time for the same pin point damage. Clans doesn't have that. The Clan counterpart of the IS PPC is the Large Pulse Laser. Don't see a whole lot of them. Guess why? Look at the beam time.

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

"Why should I do tremendous amounts of damage, when I can effectively two shot enemies (just an arbitrary number)?"

a ridiculously low arbritray number but...clan damage output so exceeds IS that the damage done where they want (even if not all of it hits where they want) exceeds IS pinpoint damage.

Yep. You can effectively two shoot Clan lights in the CT with just a 30 point alpha (what a fair amount of IS chassis can do pin point). That's 60 damage and one kill. In a Clan mech you can do that as well (just by raw firepower), but you have to be a decent aim to get all that damage in one spot. The point is, you HAVE to achieve more damage to effectively kill an enemy.

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Dragon slayer pop tart meta is all the IS is good for you seem to be saying. Guess what is getting the nerf bat this patch? If you guessed jump jets, you win,

No need to be snarky. The Dragon Slayer is just an example of extraordinary good hardpoint layout, pin point damage and jump capability. It isn't the end of all days, but neither is a Timber Wolf.

What I was trying to point out is, that the IS trumps Clans in the ability to land their shots where they want them to hit.

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Hardpoints aren't always a boon? You don't HAVE to use everyone of them. You don't HAVE to fire all of your weapons at once. If you have more weapons than the IS mech you are facing, you can match his alpha and still have more weapons left over to fire half a second later to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, but if you chain/group fire you lose a good amount of your firepower. Your enemy won't stand still waiting for all your weapons to be fired. And again, that's not a Clan issue. The underlying issue is, that we have ridiculously high heat cap. I'm totally with you on that. The thing is that we CAN fire way too many weapons simultaneously.

View PostHobgoblin I, on 15 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

I agree with you on PGI and the stupid promotion of long range stand offs, but that is an area where the clan mechs again are superior.

And they're supposed to be on the drawback of heat management issues. If we would have a fixed heat threshold of 30 and corresponding heat values on beam weapons (at the moment long range weapons are too cool and short range too hot - ER Medium Laser is the only TT conform beam weapon we have at the moment) it would magically balance things out.

#65 Radi Jeager

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:37 AM

tbh, I love my Nova S. I love my Kit Fox, and my absolute SECOND favorite (Top favorite mech of mine is Mad Dog, AKA Vulture, but its not in yet =( ) is WarHawk andi ts evil 4 ER PPCs.

HOWEVER, I'm still finding that vey few mechs 1 on 1 can stand toe to toe with my Jagers. Not to mention, I love my arrow still.

Infact, I'd say I'm more efficient in IS mechs than clan mechs.

Clan Mechs look scary and op on paper. Hell, Nova Prime has a whopping 84 Alpha Potential (you can chain them somewhat rapidly to achieve this without perma shutdown.) and Timeber Wolf is a heavy that goes 81 km/h, has LRM 40, and a bank of medium and large lasers, and as if that wasnt enough it also has machine guns.

And Warhawk has 4 ERPPCs, and the capibility to alpha all 4 without extended shut down times.

At the end of the day though, Aside from Dire Wolves, I'd say IS and Clan mechs are pretty balanced. Every matchup Ive had between IS and Clan, IS usually wins. And I'd take my Jager over any clan mech any day if I had to choose. Although I love my Gauss Fox =P

my 2 cents

#66 Hobgoblin I

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:14 AM

View PostGasoline, on 15 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Tell my Nova. Yay for having a lot of shiny lazors,..<snip>


You clan defenders are like FOX News. You take the tiniest bit of truth and then incoporate wild embelishments and downright falsehoods into it and figure if you repeat it enouugh it becomes truth.

Your Nova does have to expose itself longer to do FULL damage, but at any point of its beam duration it still outdamages the IS equivilent. So if you only keep your laser on target the exact 1 sec that an IS med laser does its full 5 damage in, you will do about 5.4 damage. That is assuming the IS mech and you are both within 270m, which is the range after the IS laser starts dropping off its damage, not the 450m of yours...

The clan counter part to the IS PPC is the clan LPL??? What is the clan counterpart to the IS LPL then? It is probably the clan ERPPC, which while hotter is made up for with the smaller 2x heatsinks. Poor clans have one tiny gap in weapons, even though that one has the glaring weakness of a minimun range. At any rate the IS PPC is hotter than the clan LPL with a longer recycle time and a shorter range.

You can also effectively 2 shot IS lights in the CT. The only light with significantly more center torso armor than the clan mechs is the jenner.

IS does not trump clans in ability to land damage where they want. Some builds trump other build in that department. You cherry picked what is considered the best competative build in the game with the dragonslayer. No all mechs can ape that. Firing more weapons can mitigate the damage spread. Also, if you think there are many times that just one round of the burst of clan ac fire hits where it wants then you are crazy. Clan AC fire is not as good as IS, but don't think it is comparable to beam spread.

In chain fire, group fire, or alpha more damage is always better than less damage. Clan mechs can throw out more damage with less heat at better range across the board.

Edited by Hobgoblin I, 16 July 2014 - 07:17 AM.


#67 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:23 AM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 16 July 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:


You clan defenders are like FOX News. You take the tiniest bit of truth and then incoporate wild embelishments and downright falsehoods into it and figure if you repeat it enouugh it becomes truth.

Your Nova does have to expose itself longer to do FULL damage, but at any point of its beam duration it still outdamages the IS equivilent. So if you only keep your laser on target the exact 1 sec that an IS med laser does its full 5 damage in, you will do about 5.4 damage. That is assuming the IS mech and you are both within 270m, which is the range after the IS laser starts dropping off its damage, not the 450m of yours...

The clan counter part to the IS PPC is the clan LPL??? What is the clan counterpart to the IS LPL then? It is probably the clan ERPPC, which while hotter is made up for with the smaller 2x heatsinks. Poor clans have one tiny gap in weapons, even though that one has the glaring weakness of a minimun range. At any rate the IS PPC is hotter than the clan LPL with a longer recycle time and a shorter range.

You can also effectively 2 shot IS lights in the CT. The only light with significantly more center torso armor than the clan mechs is the jenner.

IS does not trump clans in ability to land damage where they want. Some builds trump other build in that department. You cherry picked what is considered the best competative build in the game with the dragonslayer. No all mechs can ape that. Firing more weapons can mitigate the damage spread. Also, if you think there are many times that just one round of the burst of clan ac fire hits where it wants then you are crazy. Clan AC fire is not as good as IS, but don't think it is comparable to beam spread.

In chain fire, group fire, or alpha more damage is always better than less damage. Clan mechs can throw out more damage with less heat at better range across the board.


But you are guilty of the same things. You marginalize any claim of Clan Weapon disadvantage while screaming out the advantages.

You also have some facts wrong. Your ideas about damage are one of them. More damage isn't always better IF that damage is spread over the entire mech and that is what you see happening with Clan mechs. Just about every weapon the have is designed to spread damage through longer beam durations, splash, burst fire or streaming fire. IS mechs on the other hand easily have better ability to concentrate damage.

For example, you get an enemy's CT down to 20 H but he is otherwise unharmed, doing 60 damage to his mech is meaningless unless you manage to do that 20 damage to kill him. The IS mech however has a much easier time putting that 20 damage where it needs to go. In the end you might have the clan mech doing 60 damage prior to killing the enemy and the IS mech only doing 30 damage. However it takes longer to do that 60 damage which means the enemy has more uptime to do damage to you or your team and if your really unlucky he might kill you before you kill him.

So no, more damage isn't always better.

#68 Hobgoblin I

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 16 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:


But you are guilty of the same things. You marginalize any claim of Clan Weapon disadvantage while screaming out the advantages.

You also have some facts wrong. Your ideas about damage are one of them. More damage isn't always better IF that damage is spread over the entire mech and that is what you see happening with Clan mechs. Just about every weapon the have is designed to spread damage through longer beam durations, splash, burst fire or streaming fire. IS mechs on the other hand easily have better ability to concentrate damage.

For example, you get an enemy's CT down to 20 H but he is otherwise unharmed, doing 60 damage to his mech is meaningless unless you manage to do that 20 damage to kill him. The IS mech however has a much easier time putting that 20 damage where it needs to go. In the end you might have the clan mech doing 60 damage prior to killing the enemy and the IS mech only doing 30 damage. However it takes longer to do that 60 damage which means the enemy has more uptime to do damage to you or your team and if your really unlucky he might kill you before you kill him.

So no, more damage isn't always better.


Viktor, read all the posts. I have explained the damage spread ad nauseum. The increased firpower of clan mechs will at least equal the IS damage at initial contact and the spread damage is an added bonus.
I never marginalized clan disadvantages, I put them in context. You make outright false claims. Sure is takes the clans longer to do their 60 damage than the IS's 30 (and your example situation is extremely narrow) but that doesn't mean their first 30 points of damage weren't done in the same amount of time as the IS mech.

#69 MasterBLB

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:10 AM

Hobgoblin,do you have any clan mech?

#70 Jacon Ceronia

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:15 AM

Hobgoblin,

Check your political agenda at the door, please. Your tone is sickening, and doesn't belong here, at all.

Thanks.

Back to MWO...

#71 Tremendous Upside

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:11 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 15 July 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

What I've found is that the Clans are like glass cannons; powerful yet fragile.

For kicks, I took my SHD-2D2 out for a spin to see how it compares. Got a crazy hair and ambushed a lance of Clan Mechs solo. They had a Nova, Daishi, Masakari, and a Mad Cat. I managed to rip the Daishi open like a Tuna can and turn his insides to red jelly. They brought me down before I could land the killing blow, but if I could've rolled the window down to spit in the Daishi's CT, it would've died. I figure that if I can do that with just a Shadowhawk, things aren't too out of whack.

Besides, I've found that going toe to toe with IS Mechs while piloting my Clan ones isn't a good strategy. The IS Mechs have less firepower than me, but they seem to absorb more damage. My Clan Mechs feel like they were designed to be snipers and skirmishers but not brawlers, while my IS Mechs feel like they can be anything.


It kind of depends on the build with clan mechs. What people really REALLY aren't getting with the clan AC's - is that yes, the burst fire reduces your per hit instantaneous damage. But in bunches, it will rattle the living crap out of a target. If you can sustain a high rate of fire with them, you can literally protect your own face by unloading on your target's.

Trust me - it works... I had to figure it out the hard way. I spent my first 40 games in the DWF running a build with ERMLs, a GR, UAC20 and LRMs. It was a miserable failure. On paper it looked amazing. In the testing grounds, it flattened stuff like shooting through tissue paper. Then I got to the live action and found the flaws in the build in all their glaring glory.

First off, my build was obviously way too hot. 18-19DHS wasn't nearly enough to sustain fire with everything that was applicable at each range bracket. Second problem was the lone UAC20. Great on paper. When it jams though? You could be waiting an eternity for it to clear -- and the heat it produces will keep you from using the lasers almost entirely once you start to open up with it... The weapon almost feels cursed. It almost always seems to jam at the absolute worst possible time. Third and finally? Well, I kept running into dakka wolves myself. I'd try to play it smart, I'd try to stay in perfect cover to time that one kill shot... then rattle, rattle, rattle, rattle... I'd swing for the fences and would hit an arm. Or a leg, or even nothing at all. The rattling was absolutely debilitating and it does NOT STOP. The ghost heat implementation on the UAC5's doesn't impact the builds that suffer it nearly enough to check their fire in any meaningful way. So I'd end up trying to twist the damage around and move back into full cover. Didn't matter. By the time I did (if I did), half my mech was missing - every single time.

Bottom line is that clan ACs/UACs are clearly different. They don't perform as well in the ways that IS ones do - but they are head and shoulders better in other ways and it's not just because of the reduced weight and slot requirements. In bunches, they're literally so effective that you can back down or tear through not just one mech - but packs of them.

Also as an aside - I wouldn't chalk up one experience facing down a DWF to what the chassis is actually capable of. Yes, it's a slug in MWO terms - but it's more than maneuverable enough to keep targets in front of itself. It just takes a good/experienced assault pilot. One that knows to throw the mech in reverse to turn inside his opponent. It's not at all difficult to do.

#72 Danger_Noodle

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:41 PM

Perspective from the lil' guy here. I've been playing mostly Locusts since clans mechs have become available.
As far as playing quick lights are concerned, Clan mechs are really just par for the course. If they see me in the clear for whatever dumb reason, I basicly panic for a second and then explode. If I get cover and not surrounded or wander into an unl ucky Ecm, I can do a good chunk of damage, and explode with more reasonable frequency. Really, thats just like playiing against normal IS mechs.

#73 Darth Futuza

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:46 PM

View PostJacon Ceronia, on 17 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Hobgoblin,

Check your political agenda at the door, please. Your tone is sickening, and doesn't belong here, at all.

Thanks.

Back to MWO...

Maybe it is roleplaying, after all Clan vs IS is very political in a way...

#74 Hobgoblin I

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:36 PM

View PostDarth Futuza, on 17 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Maybe it is roleplaying, after all Clan vs IS is very political in a way...

It's neither...you don't have to be partisan to realize FOX news is evil. and dear Jacon, my tone belongs anywhere there is an open forum...unless I violate the code of conduct I suggest you grow up.

#75 Jacon Ceronia

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:35 AM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 17 July 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

...unless I violate the code of conduct...


MWO Code of Conduct said:

•Promoting racial/ethnic/national/political hatred.

•Using recognized racial/ethnic/national/political slurs.

•Alluding to symbols or phrases of racial/ethnic/national/political hatred.


#76 Hobgoblin I

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:34 AM

View PostJacon Ceronia, on 18 July 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:


maybe your reading comprehension skills are off their game, but just how did I violate any of those?

#77 Kali Rinpoche

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:07 AM

I for one, couldn't be more happy with the job PGI has done with Clan Tech. Yes, the damage mechanics (dot dps) and Omni pods have basically taken game play to a different level, but IS mechs in the right combinations can definitely still succeed.

Clans:

Clan Mech advantages are single torso safe XL engines, extreme range for all beam weapons, and the ability to boat insane amount of one weapon type. The components are lighter and require less space. Targeting computers IMO are overpowered for the range and target acquisition time reductions they provide to already extreme clan weapon ranges and need to be toned down.
The mechanics of their weapons are noticeably different from their IS counterparts. Longer beam duration, multi-slug AC's, long reload times for SSRMs, and flatter LRM trajectories.

IS Mechs:

IS mechs still have many useful play components. Engine customization is still a huge benefit for IS pilots. IS weapons can more easily deliver pin point damage. LRM trajectory is better in open spaces. (Flights of 30-60 lrms are still very effective. Chain-fire LRM 5's are still effective.) IS wolf packs of lights are very effective against slower and heavier Clan mechs. IS also has the advantage of 5 ECM capable chassis. (Spider, Commando, Raven, Cicada, and Atlas)

If you want to succeed as an IS pilot in the new environment I have a few suggestions. (Disclosure: I own 5 Clan Chassis and 60ish IS mechs)
1. Speed kills. This has never been more true than now. The faster your top speed, the quicker you can get out of the UAC dakka. Many of the heavier clan mechs, even mastered, don't have the speed to turn quickly. Most of my builds before the invasion were standard engines for anything above 55 tons, with the rare XL Heavy thrown in. A 71kph Cataphrach with 280 engine is 9-10 kph slower than the speed unlocked Nova, Thor, or MadCat. I've started playing around with big XL engines in my heavies and found greater survivability in many matches. (PUGs)
2. If you are slow, you need to maximize for long range damage. PPC/ERPPCs, GR, AC2, AC5/UAC5, ERLL, and LRMS are key to any build now. You can't trade damage as well at super long ranges, but AC2s are effective at directing enemy movement.
3. Don't hate on the pulse lasers. I have had a lot of success running MPL and LPL on faster IS mechs. The ability to put more damage on target in a shorter amount of time means you can get out of the way of high alpha clan mechs faster. My faster mediums running PLs and missles have been putting up solid matches.
4. The new radar module is an absolute must, just like Seismic sensor used to be. If you take your IS mech out without it, get caught in the a bad spot, you are going to get crushed. This new module, with the use of cover, makes LRM clan mechs pilots cry.
5. Narc is your new best friend. The ability to silence KittyFox ECM is critical. It also allows you do rain indirect fire down on overly brave Clanners.
6. Artemis SRMs are now especially brutal. Try them out. They are better than SSRM 2's now.
7. Don't got fight clans face-to-face. Drive-by runs are your friend now. Use your newly speed increased builds to do damage and get out.
8. Team play is more important than ever. Your assaults need to be assisted at all times. If you're one of those that hides behind terrain in your Atlas firing your single LRM10 you are letting your team mates down. IS assault classes can absorb attacks from multiple mechs. Your job (everyone else) is to put dps down range into those opponents concentrating on large targets on your side. Just like in BT Lore, IS swarm damage is crucial.
9. Be able to put 20-30pts damage in a hit location quickly. Arms are the new torsos with Clan mechs.Take out the arms of clan mechs as quick as possible to cut their dps in 1/2.
10. Finally - have some balls. Don't sit and cower behind a ridge if you have weapons that can reach out at range.

I personally love playing my IS mechs against Clan mechs. It forced me to think outside of the box on many of my builds. You can be successful in IS mechs without having to go all pop-tart meta. Play to the strength of your builds.

edit: fix dyslexic errors

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 18 July 2014 - 09:18 AM.


#78 Darth Futuza

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:25 AM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 17 July 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

It's neither...you don't have to be partisan to realize FOX news is evil. and dear Jacon, my tone belongs anywhere there is an open forum...unless I violate the code of conduct I suggest you grow up.

You give a man the benefit of the doubt and he'll try to choke you with it. :D





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