77 replies to this topic

[TG Sundown]

So far, How do people find the balance for Clan vs. IS? I have no interest at all in paying the current prices for Clan Mechs, and if my stable of IS mechs are no longer any good, I guess I'll just have to find something else to play. I'm curious what everyone thinks though. I honestly don't know enough about the game to make a determination myself. I died a lot before, it feels like I'm dying even more now, but its hard to tell.

[CaptainDeez]

If you own one there is no difference. You were always so pro. If not well...

[Phobic Wraith]

I wouldn't say they're over powered... more "high risk, high reward." most of their weapons are DOT, which means longer firing times than inner sphere counterparts. More exposure means more damage taken. While they may do way more damage, they require more skill to keep that target under the crosshair.

edit: grammar

Edited by Phobic Wraith, 11 July 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Autobot9000]

Some builds are definitly too good - at least for pug play. The system in principle looks well done, but there are probably some things that already now feel not good. Currently clans definitly have an edge over inner sphere, if that's the piece of information you're after.

[Modo44]

Pay to win until November. All Clan mechs have vastly superior firepower, most have superior survivability compared to IS mechs. The mediums and heavies are especially silly. If you meet an equal-skill pilot, say good bye.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Is there a balance?! Sorry, I currently only play Clan Variants ehm I mean "plundered" Mechs!

[Angel of Annihilation]

For the most part they feel pretty balanced. In fact I would say that many cases and situations IS weapons are actually superior. Burst AC fire is no where near as good as FLD, 1.5 burn duration lasers, no where nears as good as 1.0 burn time duration lasers. Streaming LRMs no where near as good as a single concentrated flight of IS missiles.

As far as statistically, my Timberwolves seems to be doing about the same as my IS equivalents of about the same weight at least as far as K/D ratios.

Clan mechs seem to output more damage but with all the burst and streaming, that damage is distributed all over the the enemy mech vs IS mechs who are able to concentrate more damage into vulnerable areas. I guess a good way to describe this would be comparing Quantity vs Quality. Clans have Quantity of damage going for them while the IS has the Quality of damage in their favor.

The Clan mechs do also bring a few more tricks to the table that alot of people haven't learned how to deal with which is why you get a few people claiming P2W or Clan's OPed. However, in most cases as soon as you learn to adjust tactics you don't notice any advantages.

So yeah all in all fairly balanced though Clan Lasers and Pulse Lasers definitely need some adjustments, probably a series of both buffs and nerfs, to tweak them into balance. Right now they are mostly inferior to IS Lasers 80% of the time but superior to them 20% of them. The balance needs to hit 50/50.

[Hobgoblin I]

There is no real balance Viktor. Clan mechs are superior, as it seems PGI meant it to be. The lower weapon weight and smaller crit size DHS well more than offset any duration nerfs, as does the increase in range. Clan vs IS in CW would be completely lopsided if it were 12 on 12, maybe even at 10 on 12.

[ShinVector]

Viktor Drake, on 11 July 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

.... FLD, 1.5 burn duration lasers, no where nears as good as 1.0 burn time duration lasers.

...

So yeah all in all fairly balanced though Clan Lasers and Pulse Lasers definitely need some adjustments, probably a series of both buffs and nerfs, to tweak them into balance. Right now they are mostly inferior to IS Lasers 80% of the time but superior to them 20% of them. The balance needs to hit 50/50.

Best correct yourself here.... Clan laser weapons are superior to IS lasers in probably every way..
vastly longer range..
usually weight less...
more DPS..
More damage over heat...
more damage..

Oh note higher DPS ? Not happy with longer duration on clan lasers ? Don't wait for the full burn then. Wait 1.0s.. You still do more damage than the IS version..

Edited by ShinVector, 11 July 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I'd say IS mechs are superior to clan mechs so mwo isn't completely P2W.
The victor is still probably the best assault mech IMO. For heavys, cgauss+2x CERPPC runs really hot, I'd rather have 2 gauss ppc jagger. Mediums, ok well idk, but I still think I would rather have a shadow hawk then the stormcrow due to high slung ballistics plus jump jets. Lights, well clan lights are much much slower... So I find them much easier to hit.

Don't get me wrong, I love my timberwolf, but it's not because of quality, I just always loved the timber wolf since I was a kid.

Edited by Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, 11 July 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Taelon Zero]

I do better in my IS jagermechs in pug matches, the ablity for all that damage on one spot in one hit can easily be better than the clan 5 round burst AC20

[QuackAttack]

I also agree that they are pretty well balanced. That duration on lasers really allows you to twist/jump to spread the damage.
The stream of LRMs is burned down by AMS very well.
7 seconds recharge on Streak SRM6!
Yes taking out 1 side torso does not kill em but they have no zombie builds.
Yes they have smaller DHS and can fit more but they also have weapons that run hotter.
And ironically a lot of clan pilots are new, having waited for their pay to win mechs to come out and have no idea what they are really doing and are easy meat

While not perfect the balance issues are no worse then whatever the current meta the I.S. mechs are using.

[ShinVector]

QuackAttack, on 11 July 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I also agree that they are pretty well balanced. That duration on lasers really allows you to twist/jump to spread the damage.
The stream of LRMs is burned down by AMS very well.
7 seconds recharge on Streak SRM6!
Yes taking out 1 side torso does not kill em but they have no zombie builds.
Yes they have smaller DHS and can fit more but they also have weapons that run hotter.
And ironically a lot of clan pilots are new, having waited for their pay to win mechs to come out and have no idea what they are really doing and are easy meat

While not perfect the balance issues are no worse then whatever the current meta the I.S. mechs are using.

I think you need to reserve that comment till all clan mechs are available everyone...
I for one intent to abuse the Nova when I can get my hands on it.

[Autobot9000]

Tbh streak SRM6 is overnerfed. They need to take a good chunk back from that cooldown. However Ultra 20 and Ultra10, ERPPCs, I am not so sure if these arent a good chunk too good. Also clan LRMs: Burning them down? Who plays 1v1 here? The problem is the mass of them. Their weight is so low, that practically every mech can afford to put a rather large launcher on his chassis, just as a fill-in. In effect there are hundreds of LRMs "streaming" towards a single target. This is a group effect, not the effect of a single loadout. Yes, this is a gigantic problem I feel.

All this brings you into the classic intra-class balancing (i.e. clan vs clan, IS vs IS) and inter-class balancing (clan vs IS). You need a good concept, i.e. game design to allow for the balancing. I feel PGI is in part on a good route. Ghost heat was a mistake though nevertheless. They should not have allowed the customizationa and remove the pin point from AC+PPC in the first place to avoid all sorts of work around that bring their own problems.

Edited by Autobot9000, 11 July 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[StainlessSR]

Part of the problem is that the meta hasn't resettled yet. About the only meta that is still good is the 2erppc/gauss combo(2gauss/erppc).

Is pilots are used to just using one mech (or hoping that one mech boats) for LRM's, if every IS mech loaded an LRM5 at a min (those that could) and an AMS it would go a long way to balencing the new CLRMAGEDDON!!!!(rofl).

Right now any IS mech that was marginal before clan release is not gonna be good now, I don't have any clan mechs yet (should get them tonight) but I have been running BJ-1(ac20/2ml), BJ-1x (2ERL/2ML/4SL) and shadowhawk 5m(3ML/3SRM6), and have been able to get kills and do decent damage if I don't get myself into a situation where I get dps'd to death. (hit and run/duck and cover is the new med meta (that is working for me) not the old twist and shout for damage spread while standing your ground).

When fighting a clan mech you need to remember that their C-ERML has the same distance for damage as the IS-LL with almost as much damage (2 less than IS-LL), so don't think "I can tank that damage to get in range real quick", or "it's only 3 ML, I am out of range of that" because you will be taking more damage than you realise as you are used to IS weapons range and hits. This is really true for those of us whom have played for a long time. (took me awhile to get it through my head)

I'll be finding out about the Clans here in the next few days, it might change my mind, but as an IS mech pilot with the clan release the big change was just how I played and what I had to keep a lookout for.

[Skull Leader2]

I honestly don't care much if they are "balanced". Clan mechs were always meant to be superior and from what I can tell they are better, just not as advantaged as the historical canon of the game suggests. I pilot my IS mechs just fine and tend to take out the same number of Clan or IS mechs. The are better overall but weak in some ways. For example, IS lights are faster. I agree with a previous post that in a CW scenario, 10 v 12 would be more appropriate if teams run only clan or only IS as they should.

[Grey Black]

TL;DR, it's balanced.

Short story long:
PGI really has done an amazing job at balancing Clan vs IS, with a few notable exceptions (*COUGHCOUGHTIMBERWOLFSCOUGHCOUGH*). Clan mechs are still more fragile than IS mechs. due to most IS mechs being able to choose their engine type, and IS autocannons deal all of their damage in a single slug, which is a beautiful thing. However, Clan mechs generally have a higher DPS and range, leading to a dichotomy of "IS mechs go for guerrilla warfare, Clan mechs fight in fields".

The IS has a significant advantage when it comes to light mechs. Since no Clan light, in fact, no Clan mech, can push upwards of 129 stock, and there is no engine modification allowed on the Clan mechs, Inner Sphere lights have found a home doing sniping tactics or running to the outside of the battlefield and doing hit-and-runs on the Clan assaults.

Again, the IS also has significantly better assaults. The Dire Whale, while able to sport a truly immense alpha, is unable to reposition itself quickly enough to avoid getting harassed or focused to death, while the Masakari loses the majority of its firepower when it loses one arm. Compared to mechs like the Dragon Slayer or even the Highlander, the Clans lose.

However, the Clan mediums and heavies are strictly better. Where your average Shadowhawk could sport 2 AC5s and a PPC, the Nova can sport 12 ER Small Lasers and 4 machine guns. Where your average cataphract could sport 2 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle, the Timber Wolf can do the same with more speed AND safer engines. The Ryoken, I contend, is the one true Clan scout mech, able to move in and scout while still being able to survive. While the Thor still needs some love, I contend that it is, actually, on par with the Cataphract in terms of power, yet still vastly inferior to the almighty Timber Wolf.

And therein lies the problem. The single best Mech in the game is the Timber Wolf S. Given the omnipod's capabilities, the Timber Wolf S can perform any role effectively on the battlefield while still giving this normally groundbound monstrosity the ability to jump. This has led to a significant increase in power, and needs to be nerfed to bring it anywhere near balanced in the grand scheme of MWO.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

I dont know the technical details on the clan weapons because i dont own any. But i do know that a half hour ago on HPG i brawled 3 daishis in my ddc. Needless to say the daishis were at the disadvantage and all 3 died in about 24 seconds. While clan weapons and dhs are better. The platforms are faster. The actual difference is nullified by good piloting, better fired durations on IS weapons, pinpoint IS acs, and BIG clan CTs. I see absolutle no issue with clans VS IS as of now. I do think the gauss charge needs removed from both sides and min range added like its supposed to have but other than that nothing. I would be quite confident that i would win at least 50% of matches in 12 IS vs 12 clan. Simply because if i take down 3 mechs in my atlas, its really only 9 clan vs 12 IS anyway lols.
EDIT: After 3rd daishi died, i was killed by a timby and masakari, but only after critting the CT of the masakari.
EDIT 2: Hey grey black, the cataphract can run 2 ppcs and a gauss with a standard engine. So it has advantage over timby there. I admit timby is stronk like bull. But not unbeatable and actually MUCH less OP than i expected. Remember kids. Cgauss should be doing 18 dmg and Cerppcs should be doing 15.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 11 July 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Podex]

They are fine, there's just too many of them in game now. People have it in their head that they are OP and instakill so everybody seems to be buying one.

They are very powerful, as well they should be, but I don't want to see 23 of them in game while I'm tooling around in a Trebuchet.

[Escef]

I was streaming the other day trying to grind out skills on my Warhawk Prime. For my last match of the stream I swapped to my SHD-2H(P), and did better than I had done during most of my 2 hours in the Warhawk.