97 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

While I don't think that LRMs are OP, just annoying, your example of suitable cover is pretty biased. You're at a high point on the map, with your teammates covering the other high spot. It's guaranteed that whatever LRM boat exists is firing LRMs from below you. While that height of cover would be suitable for that kind of situation, in one where you're both level or the boat is higher than you, it would not be.

[VaudeVillain]

While everyone thinks it's based on the regular TT rules, MWO does actually go more along with the Solaris VII rules. The math was done in BETA and for the longest time, PGI stuck with Solaris VII ranges, rate of fire, etc. But stuff like decreased heat on ER Large Lasers for IS was one of the first big changes, and of course the range modules.

Edited by GaiDaigoji, 19 July 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Aim64C]

GaiDaigoji, on 19 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

If anything, ammo amounts for missiles and ballistics should be reduced to the TT levels so people learn to equip backup weapons.

Then their damage amount needs to go back up to around 1.8

armor and internals are doubled in the game mechanics, and LRMs are already horribly ineffective at doing much of anything.

When you think about the fact that it probably took 2 tons of ammo, total, to down Sephlock - the notion that LRMs need to have their ammo count reduced is absurd.

4 tons of ammo would last a Catapult C4 a total of 10 volleys. Or a total damage potential of 440.

8 tons extends that to 20 volleys and a total damage potential of 880.

Under your proposal.

Keep in mind that is dispersed damage. Even an AC 5 comes with 50 rounds per ton - which means a total damage potential of 250 per ton with the LRM only able to deal 110 per ton.

Edit - my wrong. 30 rounds per ton - total damage potential of 150.

Even at 1.8 points of damage, it would be 180 per ton, substantially below ballistic weapons that cost only slightly more tonnage and deal their damage upfront. Accuracy with an autocannon can rather easily reach 80% - while accuracy with missiles is lucky to achieve 60%.

Further - in battlemechs like the Catapult C4 - what do you propose be a backup weapon?

You've got 4 missile hardpoints and 2 center torso energy hardpoints.

Choose wisely.

Edited by Aim64C, 19 July 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Khobai, on 19 July 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

um no. ballistics used to have high impulse and the game was unplayable. they lowered it for a reason. and they need to lower lrm impulse for the same reason.

No it wasn't, I played it just fine. The explosion effects are harder to deal with than impusle, I can still aim through the shake, can't aim when I can't damn see.

[Trauglodyte]

LRMs aren't OP. If anything, they're ****** easy to avoid if you have an idea of how big your mech is, the height of the terrain/buildings around you, and the height upon which your attacker is firing. Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where you get smashed because a lot of buildings simply aren't what they look like. Chalk it up to one of those invisible terrain issues only in reverse.

[Lightfoot]

Look. You just shut down while moving and the LRMs hit where you shutdown, but not where you came to a stop. A total miss. And, by the time you restart, if behind any object of any height, the LRM'er has switched targets. Works even if being spotted.

LRMs are so easy to spoof I am surprised they released Radar Dep. at all. I have been killed by LRMs about 8-9 times this YEAR. Yes, not this week or month, but YEAR. You just have to think to figure simple stuff like this out. Not that you don't, but please stop with all the LRM OP posts. They are just for Area Denial to block a rush maybe, a big maybe.

As for power I watched a Victor walk straight through about 5 LRM mech's salvos for about a full minute before going down. So, 500-600 LRMs? Silly Victor, but weak LRMs. We even had line of sight which is supposed to grant the Artemis buff, as if.

So if anything LRMs with Artemis LoS need a buff, now that players have access to Radar Dep for instant skilless missile spoofing.

[Sephlock]

Also, ECM.

[AllSystemsNominal]

Honestly LRMs were fine before 12 person matches.

[Yokaiko]

AllSystemsNominal, on 19 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Honestly LRMs were fine before 12 person matches.

Heh Its been a constant moan since closed beta.

[Mcgral18]

Yokaiko, on 19 July 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Heh Its been a constant moan since closed beta.

Didn't they use to fly at over 200 M/s with 1.8 damage? Which was multiplied by splash damage...

The lurmageddons the new players will never experience.

[Mercules]

InspectorG, on 19 July 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

My spider hides under the wheelchair ramps at HPG. Light pilots FTW!

I do the same in my smaller mechs, then I cut the legs off bigger ones by firing under it. They keep looking around trying to see who is firing at them and I am just on the other side of the ramp.

GaiDaigoji, on 19 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

If anything, ammo amounts for missiles and ballistics should be reduced to the TT levels so people learn to equip backup weapons.

It used to be at that level. With doubled armor though it puts a pretty huge strain on using a weapons that requires ammo. They didn't double ammo though, just increased it by about half. It works, instead of a ton of ammo people bring 2 tons.

Adiuvo, on 19 July 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

While I don't think that LRMs are OP, just annoying, your example of suitable cover is pretty biased. You're at a high point on the map, with your teammates covering the other high spot. It's guaranteed that whatever LRM boat exists is firing LRMs from below you. While that height of cover would be suitable for that kind of situation, in one where you're both level or the boat is higher than you, it would not be.

So..... you are saying he used his brain and found cover based on positioning? I'm not seeing how this is not how you deal with LRMs and not something people could and should do.

[Adiuvo]

Mercules, on 19 July 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

So..... you are saying he used his brain and found cover based on positioning? I'm not seeing how this is not how you deal with LRMs and not something people could and should do.

No, that is something everyone should be doing. It's just that it's disingenuous to say this...

Quote

I only took the second picture to illustrate just HOW HIGH the cover had to be in order to protect me from missiles.

...as if that's applicable due to the nature of LRMs rather than just the position on the map.

[Sug]

Ha! Was going to ignore this thread til I saw Seph started it.

[Mercules]

Adiuvo, on 19 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

No, that is something everyone should be doing. It's just that it's disingenuous to say this...



...as if that's applicable due to the nature of LRMs rather than just the position on the map.

It still counters the, "There are not any buildings big enough to hide you from LRMs in location X." It really depends on where the LRMs are coming from. Good players track the enemy and what cover is available. Like above.

[Sephlock]

Like I said: Yes, the relative positioning did help me somehwat (although there is even someone in this thread that flat out insists that that cover was not sufficient, so... what? I must have been getting hit by LRMs but not realizing it?).

Even so, it is not like LRMs are the unstoppable death machines that some insist they are. If the spots occupied by my teammates (incidentally, I thought BOTH of my remaining lancemates were AFK but it seems like one of them took damage so I assume he wasn't... I don't know) WERE occupied by enemies, or if the enemies were at a similar height...

I could have just dropped down into the tunnel, or found a slightly taller building, or... you know... broken LoS. The arc is NOTHING like it was during the Golden Times, when all was right with the world.

Also, prior to being forced to retreat I wasn't having much luck hitting them with my LRMs because THEY HAD BUILDINGS TO HIDE BEHIND WHICH PROTECTED THEM EVEN THOUGH I WAS FIRING DOWN ON THEM! Yes, even the little ones helped to block LRMs, and the littlest ones still helped to mess with my ability to maintain lock as they moved through them.

As it was, I had to use LRMs to try to suppress them as I relied on playing PPC whack-a-mole to deal actual damage.

Incidentally, as someone pointed out, if they had been using meta builds I would have gone down in seconds and likely would never even have had a chance to retreat.

[Yokaiko]

Mcgral18, on 19 July 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Didn't they use to fly at over 200 M/s with 1.8 damage? Which was multiplied by splash damage...

The lurmageddons the new players will never experience.

Yeah you could drop an atlas with 3 lrm 15s in about 5 vollies.....try that with an LRM 40 now you'll waste 4 tons of ammo doing it.


That was also before they figured out that missile splash was causing 2.2-3.5 times the damage that was intended. A player had to figure that out for them.

Edited by Yokaiko, 19 July 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Sephlock]

Yokaiko, on 19 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yeah you could drop an atlas with 3 lrm 15s in about 5 vollies.....try that with an LRM 40 now you'll waste 4 tons of ammo doing it.


That was also before they figured out that missile splash was causing 2.2-3.5 times the damage that was intended. A player had to figure that out for them.

And in so doing ruined things for everyone (yes, EVERYONE- there are still LRM whiners, it has just gotten harder and harder for them to find actual issues to whine about).

[Mercules]

Another import thing to note that Sephlock touched upon is that a building the height of your mech will completely protect you from LRMs as they can't get a lock on you unless they have a spotter to the side or a NARC on you. In fact this is all I do in my lights is break LoS and run perpendicular. I don't hunker down behind buildings and hope they are tall enough, tall enough to obscure me as I move away from them is tall enough.

[mogs01gt]

Great post OP!

We need to create a petition to buff LRMS!

[Steve Pryde]

U can use:

- cover
- ECM
- Radar Derp Module

1 of them above and u are laughing at LRM users.