18 replies to this topic

[Taidan]

Hey there!

I used to play a fair bit when the game first launched, but have been away from the game for a very long time. (Came back a couple of days ago after hearing that the game was on the up-turn again.)

Back in days of yore, I was a loyal, dedicated Hunchback pilot, and (Among others) I still have my four babies in my garage, (4SP, 4H, 4J, 4P) about as pimped as they'll ever be, and...

...and I'm getting crushed. No quarter is being given, no mercy shown. I've also noticed that I'm not seeing any other Hunchies in any game, ever. I did ask about that in game, and was informed by a few people that the Hunchback is effectively obsolete, as several other chassis can do its job a lot better. (The Shadowhawk, Wolverine and Griffon were mentioned.)

I've also noticed that there are just a couple more Mechs available to fly than there were last time I checked. I'm not sure what any of them do.

Anyway, questions!

1) Are my beloved Hunchbacks truly beyond redemption, as others have hinted? Should I shelve them for now and pursue other avenues of stomping?

2) What should I be driving these days for my playstyle? I'm not a huge Light (although I do have a couple of Spiders on standby) or Assault fan. I prefer a more versatile, medium range build in the medium/heavy range. (I'm definitely edging more towards brawling than sniping, and I'm happiest in the mid-range of the speed spectrum.)

Thanks for your time!

[Nothing Whatsoever]

1) No they are not beyond redemption, but it is harder coming back and adapting to the changes though.

2) You need to have more of plan in place for engagements, and know how you are going to attack an enemy position since you do not have Jump Jets for easier escape.

For example SRMs work now since the Buckton fix and you can deal consistent damage now, so your 4SP and 4J if running SRMs can work nicely. And more recently LRMs got a tweak, so you should also see a bit more consistent damage from those also.

In my case I'm currently grinding
Cicada 3M
Griffins
Trebuchets
and Shadowhawks

So, I can try to into detail what I've been doing in my matches.

[1453 R]

Taidan, on 21 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

1) Are my beloved Hunchbacks truly beyond redemption, as others have hinted? Should I shelve them for now and pursue other avenues of stomping?

Beyond redemption? No. No longer top of the heap? Yes.

The Hunchback has one of the smallest medium ‘Mech silhouettes in the game, as well as very good torso agility. What it does not have are good hitboxes, which is one of many areas in which the Shadow Hawk excels. You’re going to have to play hide-and-seek harder than ever – the metagame in general heavily (and I repeat: HEAVILY) stresses long-range combat these days. Brawling loadouts in Hunchbacks need to wait for the right moment to strike, you can’t go wading on in there they way you used to anymore.

Taidan, on 21 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

2) What should I be driving these days for my playstyle? I'm not a huge Light (although I do have a couple of Spiders on standby) or Assault fan. I prefer a more versatile, medium range build in the medium/heavy range. (I'm definitely edging more towards brawling than sniping, and I'm happiest in the mid-range of the speed spectrum.)

If you’re looking for a slick new ride, Shadow Hawks are considered the top of the medium heap at the moment. They have almost as many variants available as Hunchbacks, and between its various variants it can do just about anything it pleases. It makes a better AC/20 carrier than the Hunchback with a much slimmer gun-hunch that doesn’t attract nearly so much anger, and of course it has jump jets. Its torso agility is lacking, though. Your other high-end option is the Griffin, which is basically a missile-centric Shadow Hawk. No ballistics in any of its variants, but it’s very good with missiles and has all the stupidly nutty torso agility you’re used to in a Hunchback. Both, however, are as tall as an Atlas, so you’ll have to deal with the larger target profile.

Alternatively, if you’ve got bucks to drop, the Clan Invasion is here. Sort of. Currently Clan ‘Mechs are only available in for-money (NOT for-MC; you have to buy them on the website in a separate transaction from MC purchases, don’t make that mistake!) Invasion packages right now. The Stormcrow is widely considered to be the second-best of the eight Invasion OmniMechs, with the best being (of course) the Timber Wolf. Another 55-ton medium and considered to be about as perfectly ideal a blend of speed, firepower, armor, and hitboxes/shape as any non-jumping medium is ever going to get. It’s fast, it climbs hills well (another thing: your ‘Mechs are now going to be SIGNIFICANTLY LESS GOOD at traversing inclines. No more skating up 70-degree slopes, like in the old days), it has Hunchback-level torso agility, and it’s pretty much my favoritest medium everz. It will cost you a bare minimum of 55 bucks though, and that’s the a’la carte price.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, at least. I’m sure Koniving and Redshift will be along to trump me any old time now

[Koniving]

I speak as someone with 129 mechbays and 126 mechs with at least some experience in every mech released.

Obsolete it is not, but requiring some skill and tact it is.

Lets take your 4P for example.
In the past you could do this and do great!

(Original vid that was here got put into the spoiler.)

Spoiler

But with the Clan mechs around, doing this will get you slaughtered.

Now you might be better off like this. The PPCs and laser combination does work wonders. And yes, it's a 200 engine and 320 (stock but rearranged) armor.


Another comparison...

Spoiler

In the past you could do this with ease. Pure stock.


Now either you do this... High firepower and stealthy.


or this... Low firepower but lightning fast and high stamina/endurance (very good heat efficiency).

The 'meta' critics have decided that anything which does not have jumpjets is therefore obsolete.

They also think that Awesomes are the worst mechs while Timber Wolves are the best.

Pfft, I say. Pfft!
The issue is whether or not the mech is compatible with what the player plays. Most meta players have set the 'best' playstyle which exploits many of the game's faults (high front loaded damage, fast-recharging instant damage weapons, invisible barriers that allow meta players to see while being invincible before poptarting up to shoot over, etc).

Hunchbacks are compatible with many playstyles, but Shadowhawks for example add what the Hunchbacks were good at and slaps on jumpjets.

Hunchbacks on the other hand have adopted an old trick from Catapults which give them a new bag of tricks. Shooting almost directly behind themselves is one of the new tricks that Hunchbacks have. A Shadowhawk can barely shoot directly left or right of its legs.

Probably the most important things you will need for your Hunchbacks are as follows:
1) For any Hunchback with a Hunch: Right torso front armor 46, rear armor 2. (The "rear torso" is literally the size of the hunchback's fist below the rear vent. That's it. The rest in all directions including behind are all "front torso.")
2) Remember that Hunchbacks by game and by lore are intended for use in urban environments where it can use buildings and tall obstructions for cover. Your Hunchback will be boatloads better using them.
3) Endurance is more important than firepower. Yes the Hunchback thrives on the concept of good firepower and armor in a tightly packed environment at low speeds -- but when you can't bob and weave between buildings to cool off, you need a design that can keep hitting.

Since someone liked a post in the tactical tips thread which made this very easy to find... I'll leave this here for a little Hunchback pride.

Koniving, on 10 May 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

On the topic of camo..
Some of my recent ones.
In order: 4P, 4SP, 4J, 4J.

4G.

Grid Iron.


4G Founder's

As for your other question, that really depends. I'll let others answer it.

Edited by Koniving, 21 July 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[1453 R]

You forgot to mention that the Shawk is significantly to stupidly faster than the poor Hunchie, Koniving

Though that reminds me: Taidan, they added both a new Hunchback Hero 'Mech (It's...not good. It's not terrible either, but it's not good. Even if its paint scheme is amazing) and with it, variable 'Mech geometry for the Hunchback. You can now eliminate your Hunchback's super-vulnerable hunch by taking the weapons out of it. The 4H and 4SP are especially good for this, since both can mount significant energy-only armaments while slimming down their silhouettes quite a bit.

[Taidan]

Thanks for the advice all. I'm going to go sleep off tonight's excesses, and I think I'll stick with the Hunchie and give Koniving's 4P-PPC build a good outing tomorrow. (I've wondering what the hell to do with that thing for a while.)

Next stop, exploring "modern" 4J builds.

[Koniving]

1453 R, on 21 July 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

You forgot to mention that the Shawk is significantly to stupidly faster than the poor Hunchie, Koniving

Though that reminds me: Taidan, they added both a new Hunchback Hero 'Mech (It's...not good. It's not terrible either, but it's not good. Even if its paint scheme is amazing) and with it, variable 'Mech geometry for the Hunchback. You can now eliminate your Hunchback's super-vulnerable hunch by taking the weapons out of it. The 4H and 4SP are especially good for this, since both can mount significant energy-only armaments while slimming down their silhouettes quite a bit.

Yeah that speed limit was pretty rediculous. Running that and max armor on the Shadowhawk though is pretty...worthless though due to having no real room for weapons after that. At the highest "worth while" engine weight to usable weapon weight ratio, they go about the same speed.

(Said worthwhile engines being 275 for Hunchback (89.1 kph 98.0 kph) and 300 for Shadowhawk (88.4 kph 97.2 kph). Any heavier than that for the Shadowhawk and your firepower is gonna suffer or you won't be jumping; take your pick.)

On the reducing hunches, the 4J is better than the 4H. See the quoted images. The last Hunchback on the right of the first row is the 4J; remove the launchers and remove the hunch completely. The 4H's hunch just reduces in size but doesn't go away.

Edited by Koniving, 21 July 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Quit and comeback in 6 months to see if PGI has improved MWO.

[1453 R]

Koniving, on 21 July 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

Yeah that speed limit was pretty rediculous. Running that and max armor on the Shadowhawk though is pretty...worthless though due to having no real room for weapons after that. At the "worth while" engine weight to usable weapon weight ratio, they go about the same speed.

On the reducing hunches, the 4J is better than the 4H. See the quoted images. The last Hunchback on the right of the first row is the 4J; remove the launchers and remove the hunch completely. The 4H's hunch just reduces in size but doesn't go away.

I've actually had some pretty good successes with 350XL Shadow Hawks. They do tend to run weapons-light, but I've got a doughnut-crazed Pack Hunter 2K running two ERPPCs, the jets, and not a lot else. It runs hot as hell but has surprised me a few times. And high-speed Surmbombing cruisers have never needed a lot of weapons weight before.

Heh, 'course I'm also a speed-crazed lunatic at times who can't see a high engine rating in a 'Mech and not shoot for it. If my hands could keep up with my brain I'd probably be one of those infuriating Spider pilots I absolutely loathe. Taidan doesn't seem to share my twisted passion, more's the pity

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, I guess I can get started with builds for the 4J.

LRMer
Stock 200, 45 LRM shots available, identify other LRMers, and stick close to them in the beginning of a match. But I recommend engaging with LRMs closer in if they choose to stay too far back, farthest I'd say is ~500m.

WIth TAG, you can get your own targets and carrying BAP anything up close using a single ECM will be countered. Also need to cautious with ML grouping to manage heat.


SRMer
Standard 225 at 80.2 kph you have enough speed to get into trouble and it will be hard to get out of trouble (I ran this), but using terrain and cover while staying close to others works well, especially with a flanking maneuver, so you need to have a feel for what you can do on different maps.

WIth this one fire SRMs then turn and twist back towards cover, since you will be fighting close, keeping the BAP and TAG on can help you defeat ECM.

Here's another one with a 270, it would work the same, just way just hotter and faster, might be better due to the extra speed and agility, just gotta manage the ML heat.

Another idea would be make use of Pulse Lasers if you like their shorter burst over MLs. And arm armor can be reduced to gain some tons to tweak the build further

[Karamarka]

Koniving, on 21 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

They also think that Awesomes are the worst mechs while Timber Wolves are the best.

SNIP REST

The problem with your analysis is that your screenshots are you team 12v1 or 12v2, therefore stomping the enemy. And you only did 600 in an Awesome. Timberwolf will produce more results for better players 100% of the time. Awesome is DOA just like most of the mediums and heavies (lol Dragon these days, what a joke)

[Koniving]

Karamarka, on 21 July 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

The problem with your analysis is that your screenshots are you team 12v1 or 12v2, therefore stomping the enemy. And you only did 600 in an Awesome. Timberwolf will produce more results for better players 100% of the time. Awesome is DOA just like most of the mediums and heavies (lol Dragon these days, what a joke)

Solo, so all enemies are solo too. I was head on with the enemy for much of the match as shown by the damage and such. Typically between the ranges of 180-ish to 300 whenever possible.
Loadout.


As for Dragons... Head on against a 4 AC/5 Cataphract on a narrow platform, rushes zig zagging spreading damage and wins.


Trial Dragon.

Edited by Koniving, 21 July 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[Gasoline]

Taidan, on 21 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

original post spoilered

Spoiler

Hey there!

I used to play a fair bit when the game first launched, but have been away from the game for a very long time. (Came back a couple of days ago after hearing that the game was on the up-turn again.)

Back in days of yore, I was a loyal, dedicated Hunchback pilot, and (Among others) I still have my four babies in my garage, (4SP, 4H, 4J, 4P) about as pimped as they'll ever be, and...

...and I'm getting crushed. No quarter is being given, no mercy shown. I've also noticed that I'm not seeing any other Hunchies in any game, ever. I did ask about that in game, and was informed by a few people that the Hunchback is effectively obsolete, as several other chassis can do its job a lot better. (The Shadowhawk, Wolverine and Griffon were mentioned.)

I've also noticed that there are just a couple more Mechs available to fly than there were last time I checked. I'm not sure what any of them do.

Anyway, questions!

1) Are my beloved Hunchbacks truly beyond redemption, as others have hinted? Should I shelve them for now and pursue other avenues of stomping?

2) What should I be driving these days for my playstyle? I'm not a huge Light (although I do have a couple of Spiders on standby) or Assault fan. I prefer a more versatile, medium range build in the medium/heavy range. (I'm definitely edging more towards brawling than sniping, and I'm happiest in the mid-range of the speed spectrum.)

Thanks for your time!

Koniving already told you anything about the Hunch you'll probably ever want to know.

The problem of the Hunch is the current long range meta. The Hunchback's original role of being a brawler has been made rather obsolete. That's why the PPC Hunch is as effective as it is.

If you go down the brawler line you have to stay invisible as long as possible. The -4SP and Grid Iron are still very good brawlers (as long as you don't equip XL engines).

I had problems in slow Hunchbacks, so most of mine run a 250 rated standard engine, so that they're running at 89,1 kph with speed tweak. Then again. Usually all my mediums go rather fast.

Alternatives: That depends totally on individual preference. I have to admit I had a great time in my Wolverines. Incredibly maneuverable, hilarious torso twist range (as far as I remember you can literally shoot anything directly behind you with full arm movement), can do great in standard and XL engines and are capable of really diverse weapon layouts. Two versions have Jump Jets and the other can mount up to a 375 rated engine.

Other than that, I may direct your attention here. There I summed up some of my experiences with the different chassis.

[Kmieciu]

Some say that it's all about the pilot and not the mech. But I'm having a hard time imagining a Hunchback going against a Timber Wolf and winning.
Maybe if the Hunchy was piloted by Koniving and the TBR pilot was a new player who thought he could buy experience with dollars. But how about Koniving in Timberwolf against a Koniving in Hunchback? I bet Timberwolf would win 9 out of 10 engagements.

Why do I even compare a Hunchback to a Timberwolf? Because I just saw 8 Timberwolves on the opposing team just yeasterday. You have to be prepared to fight against them. You will not outrun them in a HBK. You will not out-brawl them. You will not out-range them. And most certainly, you will not out DPS-them. Did I mention they have jump jets?

The only thing you can do effectively is to ridge-hump with your high-mounted twin PPC. Compared to a clan ERPPC it's relatively cool and you only have to expose a tiny bit of your mech in order to fire. You must exploit the only weakness a TW has: low mounted weapons. Take the biggest XL engine and stuff your mech with DHS. If you loose your PPCs you're done anyway and you need every bit of speed and heat capacity. Don't draw attention to yourself, and often change positions.

Alternatively, mount 2xLRM15 on your 4SP and don't leave cover until you spend all of your ammo. Hey - a cowardly Hunchy that spams LRMs for the whole match is more useful than a brave one that tries to brawl with a Timberwolf and spends the rest of the game in spectator mode instructing their team to "LTP".

[igavemymomkoolaid]

The Hunchback is a very good mech. Fast and versatile with a good variation of hardpoints. The Hunchback may be old but it's one of the alltime greats. I like to master mechs but I am returning to my Hunchbacks every time I play.

The Hunchback never gets too old to win a match.

[StainlessSR]

unless your mech can sport the current meta guass/ppc in multiple amounts (2ppc/guass,ppc/guass.2ppc/dual gauss/etc) you will not be competitive. also pack lots of air and arty strikes as that is also the current meta, nothing like the old game we used to play. welcome to high alpha pinpoint online.

[Taidan]

Thanks for the valuable insights, everybody!

I've made a few other tweaks to my mains and my play-style, and I'm just about holding my own again.

In addition, I've rebuilt my HBK-4P around a pair of PPCs and a scrottle of SMLs with the current sniper meta in mind, which is absolutely a killer. (Although I'm not a big fan of long-range combat, so I'll probably use it only sparingly once I've finished mastering it.)

Thanks again, and I'll see you all on the battlefield.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Centurion...

... I think that's what your looking for

[dragnier1]

It's good you stuck to the hunchies. I didn't elite any past the 4sp and sold them. In the meantime save up cbills for other mediums. The nova will be released for cbills the end of next month, stormcrow at the end of october and the vindicator might be arriving soon.