Listening to the podcast with the whole stop PPC and Gauss firing, I'm all for the slow the PPC projectile way down, much like how MW2 had it, less sniping and more close range.
This could also lead in to a way to balance IS vs Clan as well. maybe give IS a bit more projectile speed vs clans. Eg. Clans shoot a big floating ball, and IS shoot a faster more refined one to simulate the lack of spread damage, would also allow cover to affect the "projectile"
I totally agree with the IS vs Clan recommendation. A slower, more devastating Clan PPC makes sense while a faster, sleek IS one is dead on the mark. This is like how IS vs Clan AC's are different.
I totally agree with the IS vs Clan recommendation. A slower, more devastating Clan PPC makes sense while a faster, sleek IS one is dead on the mark. This is like how IS vs Clan AC's are different.
Yeah after running around in a victor for a change to IS....PPC and AC5's...900 dmg first game in..needs a bit of a change!
Listening to the podcast with the whole stop PPC and Gauss firing, I'm all for the slow the PPC projectile way down, much like how MW2 had it, less sniping and more close range.
This could also lead in to a way to balance IS vs Clan as well. maybe give IS a bit more projectile speed vs clans. Eg. Clans shoot a big floating ball, and IS shoot a faster more refined one to simulate the lack of spread damage, would also allow cover to affect the "projectile"
Yes, as we know lightning is slower than a bullet. We should slow the speed of light even more. Come on... really?
I really would love it if we'd have a game that didn't totally rewrite the laws of physics. Kinda messes with my suspension of disbelief here I'm trying to keep.
PPCs have been too prevalent since day 1 really, they just kept getting paired with some new flavor of the month weapon. It is indeed time to fix the issue at heart instead of the weapons paired with it.
Probably best to make the PPC a flamer like long range weapon i.e.
A long sploosh of particles, like in MechCommander. The tip might hit at a different location as the end of the particle beam.
Yes, as we know lightning is slower than a bullet. We should slow the speed of light even more. Come on... really?
I really would love it if we'd have a game that didn't totally rewrite the laws of physics. Kinda messes with my suspension of disbelief here I'm trying to keep.
PPCs are not traveling at light speed. They travel at the speed of electricity. Electricity (especially when slowed by air molecules) travels slower than the speed of light (much slower), but faster than the speed of sound (from my recollection). PPCs are often described as "artificial lightning" in the novels. Really, it's a particle accelerator if we really want to get technical, and it's probably shooting out some form of plasma is my actual guess... (I could be wrong on this part though.)
PPC stands for Particle Projectile Cannon. Do a google search on the speed of lightning (electricity) and maybe also hit up a particle accelerator and what speeds it tends to send it's particles at... Might be a little helpful on the subject.
the speed of light is 186,000 miles per SECOND, even 1/100th of the speed of light is 1860 miles in a second, that is from the northernmost part of Minnesota to the southern most part of Texas....in a second......at 1% of the speed of light....
so, if anything is using the speed of light as a speed reference, its going to be faster than you can imagine, and altering the speed within anything measurable next to the speed of light is going to still be unimaginably fast. SO unimaginably fast, that we perceive it to be instant.
PPCs on the other hand are discribed as launching particles, nothing to do with lightning or the speed of light, particles move at whatever speed they are sent out at. Imagine a ball of sand wadded up and launched from a cannon. except, microscopic sand, and whole lot of it, and being launched really really fast by electromagnets, so that could be whatever speed they decide it to be.
as far as PPCs being described as lightning guns. if the particles are negatively or positively charged and the find something of the opposite charge they will arc, producing lightning like effects. Negative and postive charged ions within the same blast would give it the lightning ball look we all know.
Someone correct me if my logic is flawed. but seems to me flavor wise...PPCs are pretty spot on.
Gameplay may be another issue, but come on, do you remember how laughable PPCs were in MW2....
:::pinches bridge of nose then shoots the rhetorical rabbit::: The point is particle beams of any variety should not travel slower than a chemical launched weapon. Sod the semantics... it is handwavium and has just as much factuality as reversing the polarity of the neutron flow!
As for the speed of lightning, I decided to look at some data regarding it instead of what I half remembered. You are right, it is slower than the speed of light... but....
The PPC is the signature weapon of Battletech and has been since it was Battle Droids. Now some want it nerfed to be worse than autocannons?... they are supposed to be the big "aw crap" weapon of the game. It's what made the first KEWL mech the Warhammer so fantastic! Sigh...
::: pinches bridge of nose again and walks away:::
The point is particle beams of any variety should not travel slower than a chemical launched weapon.
As far as what I was saying was just that it doesn't travel as fast as lightning. It should probably travel faster than an AC, but slower (or similar speeds) as a Gauss (possibly). As in... about what we have right now. Include the fact that it's also got a minimum range on it (normal PPC at least), and it really should be faster than an AC bullet! (Gauss has it's charge feature, so it needs it's high speed... and it also should travel faster than an AC too.)
No one is going to say it? PPC. Are particle cannons, that means they fire mass, material, protons most likely. These won't likely travel any where close to the speed of light, especially in dense, earth-like atmosphere.
It turn out that a cohesive ball of ionized particles would likely fly slower than a bullet of equal mass since it's high energy state likely cause it to occupy more volume, thus increasing its drag. In fact, firing it out of the cannon at too fast a velocity might cause it to disorganized rapidly as it suddenly slams into ambient atmosphere after being accelerated...like having a space craft enter out of orbit too fast and at the wrong angle, it would be like slamming the PPC shot into a brick wall...causing a discharge and damage to the I firing mech right out the barrel.
If it was a lightening gun, it would likely be impossible to aim, arcing first thing out the barrel to the nearest anything, a tree, a rock, a neighboring friendly mech, the firing mechs arm, etc.
No one is going to say it? PPC. Are particle cannons, that means they fire mass, material, protons most likely. These won't likely travel any where close to the speed of light, especially in dense, earth-like atmosphere.
I feel like someone said this already
KamikazeRat, on 23 July 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:
PPCs on the other hand are discribed as launching particles, nothing to do with lightning or the speed of light, particles move at whatever speed they are sent out at. Imagine a ball of sand wadded up and launched from a cannon. except, microscopic sand, and whole lot of it, and being launched really really fast by electromagnets, so that could be whatever speed they decide it to be.
This could also lead in to a way to balance IS vs Clan as well. maybe give IS a bit more projectile speed vs clans. Eg. Clans shoot a big floating ball, and IS shoot a faster more refined one to simulate the lack of spread damage, would also allow cover to affect the "projectile"
That makes almost no sense to do. A PPC is a particle wave of heat and energy. Does heat move slowly?
Want something that does make sense?
Solution 1:
30 threshold. 2 PPCs = 66.67% heat. 1 PPC = 33.33% heat. That's by itself. 3 PPCs = 100% heat (without ghost heat even).
1 ER PPC, IS or Clan = 50% heat.
But if restored to canon values: 1 AC/20 firing, TT's 7 heat: 23.33% heat. (2 AC/20s at once = 46.67% heat.)
Twin AC/20 With 10 DHS, in 4 seconds after firing again it'd be 66.67% heat and in 4 more seconds 86.67% heat. If the mech is moving on that third volley it'd instantly shutdown on Forest Colony. On Terra Therma and completely stationary the twin AC/20 Jager would instantly shutdown on the second volley.
This accomplishes everything ghost heat tries to simulate but much more effectively.
Solve your problem much better, doesn't it? Take those percentages and cut them in half, and you'd have a 60 threshold limit.
Currently IS mechs on forest colony top out at 88.56 threshold.
Clan mechs can reach 103 threshold (but doing so is absolutely pointless).
This balances both sides.
(To make it even harsher if you want, include the requirement to be below 14 heat [46.67% heat] before the mech can power back up after overheating. You'd never see a twin PPC/ER PPC + Gauss poptart again.)
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Want more close range weapons and brawling?
Look at LL: 7 heat. 9 damage.
ER LL: 8.5 heat. 9 damage.
Clan ER LL: 8.5 heat. 11.25 damage.
Tabletop?
LL: 8 heat, 8 damage.
ER LL: 12 heat, 8 damage (but 200+ meters range optimum range).
Clan ER LL: 12 heat, 10 damage.
The damage ratio is +2 for the Clan ER LL on TT.
Why the heck is a NERFED Clan weapon pumping out 2.25 damage more?
Ratio of difference: 1 damage for identical heat.
Why the heck is a NERFED Clan weapon doing 1.2 more damage?
Why are these weapons so cold?
Why are the Close Range brawling weapons so hot?
IS ML in tabletop: 3 heat, 5 damage.
IS ML in MWO: 4 heat, 5 damage. Why?
Clan ER ML: 5 heat, 7 damage.
Clan ER ML in MWO: 5 heat, 7 damage. Why is this correct and NOT the IS?
It's very clear that from MWO's balancing, everything must favor long range when it comes to lasers.
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Solution 2:
What would make even ~more~ sense is akin to PGI's original PPC concept, a delay to fire for "charging."
Click. Build up. Charge. FIRE!
Lore-wise, regular PPCs have a longer charge up time (hence the minimum range. In tabletop it does 100% damage at 1 hex [30 meters or less], but hitting a target at that range is difficult for the same reason it is for the Gauss Rifle. The charge up). Unlike the Gauss Rifle, the PPC should be a click and forget charge. Meaning it cannot be cancelled.
Also in lore, regular PPCs have a field inhibitor that can be turned off. The PPC can fire without a charge time (no minimum range penalty) but in exchange either a risk of detonation or a higher heat than ER PPC. (In some books it also increased the range of the standard PPC after deactivating the field inhibitor.)
The ER PPCs of both sides are also charge up, but are supposed to be very quick ones. The extra heat generated reflects its fine tuned nature to be able to fire without degrading the potential of the weapon.
A Clan ER PPC could be given a charge up time that's between IS ER PPC and IS PPC.
(Example: IS ER PPC: 0.2 second delay. Clan ER PPC: 0.35 second delay [makes it trickier on macros]. IS PPC: 0.5 second delay [with field inhibitor on. 0.2 second delay with field inhibitor off; comes with either a heat penalty or a risk of explosion].)
This gives IS mechs more reason to use ER PPCs (not only longer range, but super short almost non-existent firing delays).
It would give IS mechs more reason to use PPCs (No minimum range = no damage b.s. Just gotta deal with a firing delay which like Gauss Rifles can feel like a minimum range).
In both cases this would give light mechs an easier change to evade this kind of fire power (firing delays means it won't fire when you click, but shortly after). So even with macros, it'll be pretty tricky.
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Solution 3:
Though what would make even more sense... is for PGI to Not give the ER PPC a faster projectile speed with a targeting computer! O_O!They won't match up so perfectly then.
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Solution 4:
Also, the major offender in Clan poptarting with ER PPC + Gauss is the Timber Wolf. The Dire Wolf is an easy piece of cheese that's slaughtered by looking at it (from the side).
Hardwire the Timber Wolf S variant Omnipod jumpjets.
Try putting a Gauss Rifle in this without removing a jumpjet. Try it! I dare ya. I double dare ya.
Problem fixed.
ER PPC + Gauss is now impossible EXCEPT if placed on the TW right arm. So new Timber Wolf meta rig. Not exact, but close enough. Know what that means? Timber Wolf arms are SUPER EASY to destroy.
(Wait, one other way it could be done. Akin to this. The non-S variants, Prime and C, can't jump without an S-side torso so they can only do the right arm mount. Either way, this means it's always on the right side. So see a Timber Wolf, instantly know to destroy the right side; we've completely doomed this poptart into a tier 2 or worse rating as a result of this ease of taking it out.)
It also gives a real, genuine reason to use Summoners. Which btw Summoners can only do 1 ER PPC and 1 Gauss Rifle realistically.
Now. Doesn't that just make some real goddamn sense?
Disengaging the field inhibitor is supposed to cause some level EMP effect on the firing mech also? Like screen static, or cross hair interruption, etc on firing of the PPC.
"I'm all for the slow the PPC projectile way down, much like how MW2 had it, less sniping and more close range"
Now I have to admit, that is rather dim, even for these forums. PPCs have always been an intermediate to long range weapon. Hence why non ER versions do zero damage under a stated range
So sick and tired of people crying about weapons systems because certain groups use them as their "go to" load out.
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Mitsuragi, on 22 July 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:
