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Flame And Fang


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#1 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 02:12 PM

Alright guys, need a spot of help here. My friend and I are going to get the Flame and Fang mechs. He is getting Flame (He wants to build a Grand Dragon) and I'm getting Fang.

Here is his build : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cfc7828cefadbc9
He's not changing it for authenticity's sake, I just wanted you to know what my partner in arms is going to be in.

I'm trying to build a Fang brawler, and came up with this : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...702d163fa7e3aac

Thoughts? I wanted to get an XL engine so I could be a bit faster than him, but I didn't want to jeopardize myself in brawls.

#2 BOWMANGR

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

First of all, a word of warning. If you are new to the game and do not have much experience I'll flat out tell you to save your money and keep them for something else.

The Dragon is among the most difficult chassis to learn to pilot well. It WILL make you a better pilot but you will have to have patience with it. It will seem like the worst mech ever way before you find its positive qualities. Think it twice before investing in paid Dragon mechs unless you are very confident in your abilities and/or have the motivation to spend time and effort to learn them well.


Now that we got that out of the way, let's talk about a few pointers:

1} The Dragon is an XL friendly mech. Some claim that it performs well with standard engines but I'm not that convinced. So your c-bill cost will definitely rise since you'll soon realize that you both need XL engines in there.

2} You can shave some points of armor from the head and legs but you will need every last bit of armor everywere else. Your standard engine will make you slow and your unmaxed armor will make you squishy. It won't end well... don't even think about lowering the armor in the torsos and your arms if you want to keep your weapons.

3} If you check your Firepower values you'll see that they are a bit low for a Heavy mech. This is because the Standard engine doesn't allow you to load many weapons. If you are undergunned and underarmored, you won't make it. Especially the brawler Dragon.

4} The Dragon is NOT a brawler. Unfortunately your Fang will have a real bad time. Flame on the other hand has one redeeming quality. It can load an AC20! If you are hellbent on seeing a brawling Dragon {you will regret it later} maybe think about making the Flame a brawler.

5} Many people will tell you that the Fang is worthless. I agree somewhat. Its hardpoint distribution doesn't help the Dragon's strengths and/or there is another Dragon variant that can do things better. Scrap the Fang and get two Flames maybe? Even better get the 1C which is my favorite variant by the way and the 5N which can wreck people's faces with its triple AC2 ripper action.

Whatever you do be prepared to change tactics, loadouts and try new things because the Dragon plays waaaay more differently than any other mech out there. It's special and I like it but it is a painful road to tread if you are going to learn the "way of the Dragon". :)

Hope that helps in its own little way. I assume you wanted some build advice but this can come later. First of all you must be sure that you are prepared to do this because your typical MWO builds will NOT work in a Dragon.

#3 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 02:53 PM

View PostBOWMANGR, on 22 July 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

First of all, a word of warning. If you are new to the game and do not have much experience I'll flat out tell you to save your money and keep them for something else.

The Dragon is among the most difficult chassis to learn to pilot well. It WILL make you a better pilot but you will have to have patience with it. It will seem like the worst mech ever way before you find its positive qualities. Think it twice before investing in paid Dragon mechs unless you are very confident in your abilities and/or have the motivation to spend time and effort to learn them well.


Now that we got that out of the way, let's talk about a few pointers:

1} The Dragon is an XL friendly mech. Some claim that it performs well with standard engines but I'm not that convinced. So your c-bill cost will definitely rise since you'll soon realize that you both need XL engines in there.

2} You can shave some points of armor from the head and legs but you will need every last bit of armor everywere else. Your standard engine will make you slow and your unmaxed armor will make you squishy. It won't end well... don't even think about lowering the armor in the torsos and your arms if you want to keep your weapons.

3} If you check your Firepower values you'll see that they are a bit low for a Heavy mech. This is because the Standard engine doesn't allow you to load many weapons. If you are undergunned and underarmored, you won't make it. Especially the brawler Dragon.

4} The Dragon is NOT a brawler. Unfortunately your Fang will have a real bad time. Flame on the other hand has one redeeming quality. It can load an AC20! If you are hellbent on seeing a brawling Dragon {you will regret it later} maybe think about making the Flame a brawler.

5} Many people will tell you that the Fang is worthless. I agree somewhat. Its hardpoint distribution doesn't help the Dragon's strengths and/or there is another Dragon variant that can do things better. Scrap the Fang and get two Flames maybe? Even better get the 1C which is my favorite variant by the way and the 5N which can wreck people's faces with its triple AC2 ripper action.

Whatever you do be prepared to change tactics, loadouts and try new things because the Dragon plays waaaay more differently than any other mech out there. It's special and I like it but it is a painful road to tread if you are going to learn the "way of the Dragon". :)

Hope that helps in its own little way. I assume you wanted some build advice but this can come later. First of all you must be sure that you are prepared to do this because your typical MWO builds will NOT work in a Dragon.

Well. He won't change his because he wants it to be as accurate to the Grand Dragon as possible. I can probably convince him to get an XL though. (If I managed to, this would be the setup http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b2ebf0f4afdbb0b . I know the wasted tonnage is bad but he's being stubborn)

As far as the Fang. Well. The only reason I was thinking of making a brawler Dragon was to compliment his "Grand Dragon" and I thought that a brawler would work best. I may not be the best player in MWO, but I am more than willing to learn how to drive a Dragon. If it takes some rough knocks, than so be it. Aside from getting a Flame for myself, what Dragon variant with what loadout would you recommend? I am fine with not getting the Fang.

-edit- For the sake of experimentation I tried an XL in the Fang and got this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6cc2ae4b63bf50d

Edited by Darkwolfe, 22 July 2014 - 03:03 PM.


#4 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:07 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

I may not be the best player in MWO, but I am more than willing to learn how to drive a Dragon. If it takes some rough knocks, than so be it.


Have you two considered getting one of the standard Dragon variants with cbills and trying it out a bit before you buy?

#5 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:10 PM

View PostSug, on 22 July 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:


Have you two considered getting one of the standard Dragon variants with cbills and trying it out a bit before you buy?

He has a c-bill Dragon (not sure what variant). I however, do not yet.

#6 Cold Cash

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:17 PM

Real underperformers the dragons, really hard to play and die so easily, the worst chasis i ever played(i love awesomes) and a massive cash sink for decidely average gameplay.

Flame used to be Awesome but is so outmoded these days.

However if u go through with it goodluck and have fun.

#7 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:22 PM

Well. Since everyone says the Dragon's are bad.. What would be a good Heavy to compliment my friend's loadout? (LIke I said, he's being stubborn). I currently have the TDR-9S but I'm willing to expand my horizons and see what is out there. I don't want a Jaeger though.

I was actually looking at a Quickdraw to be honest. Thoughts on that thing?

#8 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:26 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

I was actually looking at a Quickdraw to be honest. Thoughts on that thing?


It has the same problems as the Dragon but it can jump.

#9 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:30 PM

View PostSug, on 22 July 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:


It has the same problems as the Dragon but it can jump.

Gah. So not a good relatively first time heavy?

#10 Voivode

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:32 PM

Since he is attempting to create the Grand Dragon, I'd recommend two things.

One, convince him to get an XL engine. The extra speed will be very helpful.

Two, grab a Dragon 5N and do something like this. The gauss is a bit difficult to get used to since it has a charge up mechanic, so I'd recommend a little time in the testing grounds to get the timing right.

A lot of people will tell you the Dragon is "awful" but I disagree. It is a difficult mech, yes, but it is both fun and (with some practice) effective. Enjoy!

#11 Artax33

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:34 PM

I started the game off with the Catapult K2. High mounted energy points are good for hill humping with a couple of PPCs. The balistic points are close to the cockpit so you can pretty much shoot what you see. Cats do well with XLs because you will pretty much take all the damage to the CT. The Jester is one of my favorite mechs.

#12 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:34 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

Gah. So not a good relatively first time heavy?



Any mech can work. If you're good with torso twisting and spreading damage, not running head on into enemy mechs, using cover, ambushing, and flanking then you'll probably do ok in some sort of QD/Dragon build.

They have to be played like bigger, slower, medium mechs with less firepower.

I actually have a Flame that I use occasionally as a brawler (I know), I can't lead the charge but I'm fast enough to flank and do decently against damaged targets.

Edited by Sug, 22 July 2014 - 03:39 PM.


#13 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:37 PM

View PostVoivode, on 22 July 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

Since he is attempting to create the Grand Dragon, I'd recommend two things.

One, convince him to get an XL engine. The extra speed will be very helpful.

Two, grab a Dragon 5N and do something like this. The gauss is a bit difficult to get used to since it has a charge up mechanic, so I'd recommend a little time in the testing grounds to get the timing right.

A lot of people will tell you the Dragon is "awful" but I disagree. It is a difficult mech, yes, but it is both fun and (with some practice) effective. Enjoy!

The 5N for myself to support him with? Also, what's with the two MG's with no ammo? Is it to bring the Gauss into a higher mount?

View PostArtax33, on 22 July 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

I started the game off with the Catapult K2. High mounted energy points are good for hill humping with a couple of PPCs. The balistic points are close to the cockpit so you can pretty much shoot what you see. Cats do well with XLs because you will pretty much take all the damage to the CT. The Jester is one of my favorite mechs.

As much as I like the Cat, it's not the first heavy I want to focus on.

View PostSug, on 22 July 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:



Any mech can work. If you're good with torso twisting and spreading damage, not running head on into enemy mechs, using cover, ambushing, and flanking then you'll probably do ok in some sort of QD/Dragon build.

They have to be played like bigger, slower, medium mechs with less firepower.

I actually have a Flame that I use occasionally as a brawler (I know), I can't lead the charge but I'm fast enough to flank and do decently against damaged targets.

So. If I learn how to torso twist and spread my damage, you think a QD might be worth it? (I just love the design of them xD)

Edited by Darkwolfe, 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM.


#14 Voivode

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

The 5N for myself to support him with? Also, what's with the two MG's with no ammo? Is it to bring the Gauss into a higher mount?

Whoops! Let's have a redux on that! :)

And yes the 5N for yourself. his primary armament is longer in range, so it would be better for both of you to use your speed to manuever and take shots from range.

Edited by Voivode, 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM.


#15 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM

QD's can actually be descent now since the SRM fix.

#16 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:43 PM

View PostVoivode, on 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Whoops! Let's have a redux on that! :)


My only issues with it are that the weapons are in either arm, meaning you'll have to expose your entire upper body to use both at the same time.

Also when you use the Dragon as a sniper you're competing against mechs that can alpha twice as hard as you or more. If someone countersnipes you you most likely won't be able to spread the damage and will be taken out of the fight quickly.

Also different projectile speeds.

Edited by Sug, 22 July 2014 - 03:46 PM.


#17 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:44 PM

View PostVoivode, on 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Whoops! Let's have a redux on that! :)

And yes the 5N for yourself. his primary armament is longer in range, so it would be better for both of you to use your speed to manuever and take shots from range.

Hm. So dual sniper Dragon's. Do you happen to have a suggested loadout for the 1N and 1C (For mastery)

View PostSug, on 22 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

QD's can actually be descent now since the SRM fix.

Oh goody.. SRMs. -hates SRMs with a passion-

#18 Sug

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:45 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Oh goody.. SRMs. -hates SRMs with a passion-


Really? They give an insane amount of firepower now that they actually hit.

#19 Shadewolfe

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:47 PM

View PostSug, on 22 July 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:


Really? They give an insane amount of firepower now that they actually hit.

Last time I played (Which was admittedly a long-ish time ago. My current computer can't run it, but I'm looking to upgrade sometime soon) I was absolutely atrocious at aiming with them. I couldn't hit the broad side of an Awesome.

#20 Koniving

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:48 PM

View PostDarkwolfe, on 22 July 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Thoughts? I wanted to get an XL engine so I could be a bit faster than him, but I didn't want to jeopardize myself in brawls.


My only advice is to shift the front armor (in both cases) to be no more than 16 on the rear. The rear is literally a flat-ish panel. The front is quite a bit of the mech. If you've used Stalkers or Clan mechs as I see you must have, you have an idea of what you're in for.





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