117 replies to this topic

[Fyrerock]

I watched my nephew become very good at playing COD, but 6 months later I asked him if he wanted to play a game and he refused, it turned out that he was out of practise and his marksmen skills sucked now. To become a good marksmen you need to practise and practise all the time, which is something most of us here lack the time to do. I would be fine with that, if they would not keep nerfing the few weapons that have a smaller learning curve.

Being able to hit a moving object with a single fast projectile is something that most people can learn to do ok, without needing endless amounts of practise. But hitting and holding target on a moving object with a stream of energy or projectiles is another story in itself, it is not something that the majority of part time players will ever become good at.

The gauss used to be a great newbie weapon for a part time player, it did not take many playing hours for a person to get the marksmen skills to hit the target most of the time and do it at both long and short ranges. But with the changes to the gauss you almost never see it being used by the average player, just in the hands of the Elite the people with the natural skills and those that play all the time. The same is almost as true for the er ppc which is a great weapon with a smaller learning curve, but the heat issues makes it a type of weapon that does not benefit the average marksmen that has a hard time placing the shot in the same spot shot after shot. For the average marksmen they will overheat before taking down a charging mech the vast majority of the time.

I left the game when they nerfed the gauss and I came back for the clan mechs, and like many people I have tried out many different weapon types on the clan mechs, and ended up using what works best for me, which is lasers and LRM. It is not that I like lasers and LRM, but I lack the time and skills to get good enough to do well with the other types of weapons. Sure in a good match I get 500 points, but most of my damage is spread out all over the place since I will never play enough to do will with lasers. The UAC does a lot of damage, but only if all the shells land in the same spot, and against a moving target I land the first shell, but miss with some of the rest most times.

It seems that the vast majority of people playing clan mechs at my level are using lasers and LRM, and I feel that they use those weapons for the same reason I do, because our skills are lacking to use the other types of weapons and still bring some value to the group.

If they are happy to design a game around the Elites then that if fine with me, but I have a feeling the player base will get smaller and smaller over time if that happens. If they want to bring in new people or even keep the average joe engaged in this game, then they need to have weapon types that does not take hundreds of hours of play time to master. Most of us lack the time investment to ever keep our marksmen skills to the point we can keep target and sustain target on a moving object, which is something you need to do with almost every single weapon type in the game, and something you need to brawl as well.

[DEMAX51]

Ok, so... what would you change?

LRMs are pretty friendly to players whose aim may not be top notch. SSRMs are another way to go. So there are weapons to fall back on on.

I'm just curious to see what changes you think could be made to help in this regard.

Edit: Also, this thread would be better served in the Feature Suggestions or General Discussion subs - it's not exactly "new player help" so much as it's a balance discussion.

Edited by DEMAX51, 23 July 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Fyrerock]

You have a huge learning curve on any weapon type that needs to hold target for all damage to land, while a much smaller learning curve to any weapon type that does all its damage at once, like the gauss used to be. it would be nice if this game had a mix of both types of weapon types so people of all skill types can feel good while piloting a mech. And you are right LRM is the only newbie friendly weapon type out there, which is why so many people are using them. For the average player close range is not something that works well for them, and it is so easy to stop a SSRM with ecm.

[Lmxar]

I would consider myself to be a good player. Not in the same skill level of some of the more well known players, but I have a really high average damage rating, and a very good W/L ratio on the mechs I consider my "favorites." That said, I feel like LRMs (especially clan) have been buffed so much that it is a very easy weapon to use. I don't really use LRMs because I feel that I can contribute more to the team with direct fire weapons since I have good aim. While I agree that the gauss rifle is much more difficult to use that it used to be, I would argue that PPCs are not. With a PPC mech, the most important thing to remember is that you are not a DPS mech. DPS mechs, or brawlers, can stand in the open and slug people to death because of how much consistent damage they can do. Think of those crazy UAC builds the dire wolf can run. Your job with a PPC mech is to pop partly around a corner or over a ridge, shoot your PPCs, then retreat into cover. A well built medium/heavy PPC mech (my only experience with PPC) should be able to get 3 double PPC shots before you have to stop shooting to allow heat to dissipate. While you are letting your heat lower, just go back into cover where you can't be hit. Rinse and repeat. I usually try to stay out on a flank or behind the brawlers when running PPC builds. Also, you may be more successful if you get the radar deprivation module. It makes it very difficult for a LRM boat to hit you. The zoom module also is a good one to get. I usually run my third module as the cool shot 9X9 or seismic, depending on whether I am pugging or dropping with my unit.

[DEMAX51]

Fyrerock, on 23 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

You have a huge learning curve on any weapon type that needs to hold target for all damage to land, while a much smaller learning curve to any weapon type that does all its damage at once, like the gauss used to be. it would be nice if this game had a mix of both types of weapon types so people of all skill types can feel good while piloting a mech. And you are right LRM is the only newbie friendly weapon type out there, which is why so many people are using them. For the average player close range is not something that works well for them, and it is so easy to stop a SSRM with ecm.

Have you tried playing with AC2s and AC5s? Front-loaded damage, so no need to hold your reticle on target, and fairly fast projectile speeds (the AC2 being slightly faster than the Gauss slug, and the AC5 being slightly slower). Both have decent range, too.

If you're talking specifically about clan 'Mechs, you can try the LBX autocannons, which fire like a shotgun, but still fire all of their projectiles at once, so you don't have to keep your reticle trained on the target.

Regarding ECM stopping SSRM locks, if you haven't been around for a while you may not be aware, but the Beagle Active Probe will now cancel out a single enemy ECM within 150m, so that gives some leeway for streak-users.

Also, though they are considered somewhat underpowered, the shorter beam-druations on pulse lasers might make them more attractive to you.

Finally, if you haven't yet, you can always try lowering your mouse sensitivity in game (or changing your mouse's DPI settings, if you have a mouse that supports it) to improve your precision.

Otherwise, man, I'm just not quite sure what they could do.

If there were one weapon that was both easy to use and hugely effective, it would be extremely overpowered at higher-level play, so I'm not sure what else can be done about this particular problem.

Edited by DEMAX51, 23 July 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Modo44]

This is why Elo is implemented in the matchmaker. You do not have to be great to have a real influence on most matches, nor are 99% of players expected to carry hard every time. This will only improve as PGI works on improving the matchmaker to put players of more similar skill in every match. If you think things are bad, you are correct -- the matchmaker is being worked on to include further improvements. However, it used to be much worse still without Elo. (Do not trust me, ask anyone who played in closed beta.)

[IraqiWalker]

Lmxar, on 23 July 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

I would consider myself to be a good player. Not in the same skill level of some of the more well known players, but I have a really high average damage rating, and a very good W/L ratio on the mechs I consider my "favorites." That said, I feel like LRMs (especially clan) have been buffed so much that it is a very easy weapon to use. I don't really use LRMs because I feel that I can contribute more to the team with direct fire weapons since I have good aim. While I agree that the gauss rifle is much more difficult to use that it used to be, I would argue that PPCs are not. With a PPC mech, the most important thing to remember is that you are not a DPS mech. DPS mechs, or brawlers, can stand in the open and slug people to death because of how much consistent damage they can do. Think of those crazy UAC builds the dire wolf can run. Your job with a PPC mech is to pop partly around a corner or over a ridge, shoot your PPCs, then retreat into cover. A well built medium/heavy PPC mech (my only experience with PPC) should be able to get 3 double PPC shots before you have to stop shooting to allow heat to dissipate. While you are letting your heat lower, just go back into cover where you can't be hit. Rinse and repeat. I usually try to stay out on a flank or behind the brawlers when running PPC builds. Also, you may be more successful if you get the radar deprivation module. It makes it very difficult for a LRM boat to hit you. The zoom module also is a good one to get. I usually run my third module as the cool shot 9X9 or seismic, depending on whether I am pugging or dropping with my unit.

I was with you until you mentioned Clan LRMs being buffed.

That is the single least buffed weapon in the game. It has way too many draw-backs, and that's compared to IS LRMs which already have a lot of drawbacks. Yes, you can fire them easily. Using them right is a completely different matter. Clan or Inner Sphere for that. However, I think the way the weapons function right now is good. You've got weapons for all mindsets of play, and for all skill tiers. People can improve with one style over another, and pick up new weapons. It takes a while, but it can be done. That's part of the practice.


I used to go cross-eyed when I first started using Advanced Zoom. Now, I want it in every mech I own. I hated PPCs when I first started because I could never estimate the speeds right, and end up missing by a hair. Which infuriates me a lot more than missing by a mile. Now, I can use them while running full speed. In fact, I can use them while poptarting. Something I never thought I'd ever try until recently.

[Fyrerock]

First this is not about me, I have had over 3000 drops since I started playing and have tried most weapon systems at one time or another. This is about the average player or a new player that has a real life and does not have the time to play every single day or even every single week maybe just a few times a month. If they want this game to grow then they need a large group of casual players and with the way the weapon systems are designed they are not casual player friendly. Any weapon type that either has a fast recycle or sustained burst like most ballistics or lasers is hard for a casual player to keep up his skills.

[Takashi Uchida]

One of the hardest parts for me when I first started was really just coping with the fact that I had a very limited arsenal. I mean this in the following ways: literal lack of an arsenal (limited weapon and mech choices), mechs with little to no efficiencies, no xp for modules, no funds for modules, not a lot of funds in general, etc.

I would like to think I'm pretty good for a casual player now, but I now have at least one mastered mech in every weight class that I am comfortable and confident in. Essentially, if I want to just play a few games for an hour, I can do so in a kitted out, optimized mech if I choose. This may change for me in the upcoming months because I'm taking the c-bill route to clan mech mastery , so I expect my experience to be a lot more grindy and frustrating soon.

For new players with more money than time, I'd recommend investing in some MC, which can get you started a lot faster. Hero mechs and premium time and help you make money at a faster rate than being purely free-to-play. Personally, I didn't spend any real money until probably a couple months in (to get mech bays). I didn't buy a hero mech until much later.

To new players, you definitely don't have to be "elite" in any sense to have fun at this game, however this is not a game that you can really just "jump into," especially if you've never played a Mechwarrior game.

[IraqiWalker]

Fyrerock, on 23 July 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

First this is not about me, I have had over 3000 drops since I started playing and have tried most weapon systems at one time or another. This is about the average player or a new player that has a real life and does not have the time to play every single day or even every single week maybe just a few times a month. If they want this game to grow then they need a large group of casual players and with the way the weapon systems are designed they are not casual player friendly. Any weapon type that either has a fast recycle or sustained burst like most ballistics or lasers is hard for a casual player to keep up his skills.

Okay, if that is your reasoning, then I will completely object to it. Casual players (as you have defined them) are the ones that are definitely not to be used for measuring balance. By the time the game is made comfortable for casual players like that, it would be way too easy for even 5 year olds to effectively participate. Which sounds great, except that 5 year olds would be the main population by that point as most serious players, especially the ones that play a lot, are active on the forums, and the ones that bought founders, phoenix, etc. will be gone when that happens.

Tutorials I can agree with. Training drops I can agree with. Adjusting weapon mechanics so that new players can have it easier is a bad idea. Can you imagine what the top tier of play will be like if the weapons are made even easier to use?

We already have high heat threshholds and heatsinks that are actually more efficient than TT heatsinks. Yes, DHS start at 1.4 cooling stock, in an elited mech they cool at 2.4 when you've got 18 of them in there.

Some skill has to be learned through practice, otherwise let's all pack up and go play barbie house, since that is very friendly to casual players. Simulators are also by nature a lot more difficult than regular games.

Look at any of the big FPS titles out there. Do any of them have weapons that are easy for a new player to use? Most new players don't know the difference between the SMGs and assault Rifles in CS. They keep spraying and praying. Same thing here, and with practice comes experience, and people learn.

There is no way to make a game easy and fair to a new comer without diluting completely for a veteran to the point of never playing it again. At least none that I can think of.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 July 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Yelland]

I think I disagree with making the weapons casual friendly. Does it take time, patience and practice? Yes, and I think maybe it should. I know its just a game but there is a reward in feeling skilled here.

What about tennis, baseball, putting a puzzle together, building a model airplane, knitting a quilt? Does any hobby or activity stay sharp when you don't practice? Are they for "elites" only? Again, I know we are discussing a game but I think the concept applies. What if the only thing MWO has going for it is the increased complexity over other offerings?

I do think there are ways to appeal to casual audiences better. I would love to see more game modes. Modes that drive tactical objectives and offer a distraction from meeting in the middle to the death. Conquest doesn't really do that.

I still think PGI should host community "training" sessions, monthly, or even several times a month. For example, consisting per team of two lances of players in their first 25 (not a requirement), and one lance of "instructors". Instructors are communicating to each other as well as to their newbies. They go through formation drills and navigation, map strategy, weapon tips, weight class, etc... Everyone on voice or at least some way for players to hear instructor.

I would like to see skill ratings on mechs, equipment and weapon choices. Lasers could be beginner for example, using the diamond graphic to show how much skill is required to aim, manage heat, target lead, and other mechanics. This type of approach would help without changing gameplay mechanics.

[DEMAX51]

I'm not giving this thread any more attention.

Having re-read the OP, and looking at the poster's other forum content, I'm pretty sure this is a "remove the charge mechanic from gauus" thread in disguise.

Whatever it is, its certainly not New Player Help.

Next time take it to General Discussion.

[Moomtazz]

Come on, I am an old azz man (42 tomorrow) and it's not that hard to use the Gauss effectively. Like you, I left the game last summer and just started again a few weeks ago. I avoided the Gauss because of the delay until a week ago. Then I decided to buckle down and within a couple of hours I was firing Gauss + PPC simultaneously with no problems.

Spending time practicing the mechanics of the game and reading up on how to get better at FPS games in general does not mean I am elite. Anyone can do that.

[TercieI]

Moomtazz, on 23 July 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Come on, I am an old azz man (42 tomorrow) and it's not that hard to use the Gauss effectively. Like you, I left the game last summer and just started again a few weeks ago. I avoided the Gauss because of the delay until a week ago. Then I decided to buckle down and within a couple of hours I was firing Gauss + PPC simultaneously with no problems.

Spending time practicing the mechanics of the game and reading up on how to get better at FPS games in general does not mean I am elite. Anyone can do that.

I keep coming back to this thread and every time I read the OP all I see is "you have to be good at this game to be good at this game" and I just don't know how to respond to a tautology.

[Fyrerock]

The Facts are the Facts, reread what I wrote about how much harder it is to maintain target lock vs hitting a target for casual players. No game will survive over the long run if it makes it tough for casual players, and I do not want this game to die because of it. What is wrong with having different type of weapon aiming systems, instead of what we have now.

And second what makes you think I have not tried to use the gauss the way it is now, for snipping over long range with a target not moving is NP, but I find the new method to frustrating to use. And I am 51 so a bit older than you moomtazz. I am here to have fun not become frustrated with game mechanisms.

[TercieI]

Fyrerock, on 23 July 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

The Facts are the Facts, reread what I wrote about how much harder it is to maintain target lock vs hitting a target for casual players. No game will survive over the long run if it makes it tough for casual players, and I do not want this game to die because of it. What is wrong with having different type of weapon aiming systems, instead of what we have now.

And second what makes you think I have not tried to use the gauss the way it is now, for snipping over long range with a target not moving is NP, but I find the new method to frustrating to use. And I am 51 so a bit older than you moomtazz. I am here to have fun not become frustrated with game mechanisms.

"The Facts." LOL. Welcome to the ignore list. You want a game for the lowest common denominator, you have lots of choices.

[Sug]

Fyrerock, on 23 July 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

The Facts are the Facts

Or are your opinions....


There are other factors besides just skill. High pings, a slow pc, and a 10$ mouse are more detrimental to how you play this game than the game mechanics themselves. If someone's having trouble with MWO I always start there.

Edited by Sug, 23 July 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Easy weapons make bad players good, good players great, great players legendary and legendary players mythical. That's the problem we have. If a game is 'skill' in the form of trained Pavlovian reflex is the basis for acumen in the game, then only those with good Pavlovian twitch reflexes that play all the time will do well.

The only way to combat this is to take the game away from this 'skill' and put it in a third party like computer aiming. This defeats the whole purpose of e-sport which is based on feats of similar Pavlovian twitch. Actually there are very few avenues in which to compete in such a game: strategically/tactically or twitch. The two are not exactly mutually exclusive but they quickly interfere with the other's ability to be enjoyed on this sport level of play.

For example, what if you made all weapons 'lock on' weapons and let the computer do the work on whether you hit or not. All you had to do was turn the mech in the right direction, hit R and fire. After that it would be up to the computer to determine if you hit or not with little control over what happens beyond mech positioning, and strategically sound play. This to almost all FPS players is unacceptable. They want the illusion of skill based in 'Pixel on Pixel' reflex. This takes youth, powerful equipment, good internet connections, and then hours upon hours of practice to refine the twitch reflexes to react quickly enough when the opportunity arrives.

Of course, for those of us who have neither the time, inclination, equipment or physical ability... that means we get told to L2P and 'u suk noob' a la this cartoon:

http://theoatmeal.co...s/online_gaming

The thing that drives everyone crazy right now is that PGI promised a "Thinking Man's Shooter" and have managed to ride the picket fence of destiny and all the butthurt it provides. You can't make the game awesome to both sides and they finally figured that out about 6 months back and have been slowly... gently been moving more and more towards "Mech of Doody" because that's where they believe the real money is. There is little to no interest in the e-sport community for parity in weapons because that would mean anyone could compete against them equally, and they don't want that as a general rule. Oh I'm sure some intellectually honest ones wouldn't care... or those who do not measure their value in the world by how many noobz they pwn a day... but in the end, "skill" as they like to believe their Pavlovian twitch reflexes to be, is what they want to be measured by, and nothing else in the end... unless it makes them undisputed champions.

[Sug]

I'm in kinda a jerky mood so I'll say it. If you think MWO is a twitch game you have bad reflexes. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just stick to LRMs.

Kjudoon, on 23 July 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

http://theoatmeal.co...s/online_gaming

Wow. Talk about perpetuating stereotypes.

Edited by Sug, 23 July 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Kanin Zeta]

"I want to be able to create an account and be Elite without working at it."


DO YOU? Really?