50 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Whenever I see an "LRMs are OP" thread I just think of it as an "I am a terrible Assault pilot" thread.

[Wolfways]

Davers, on 23 July 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Whenever I see an "LRMs are OP" thread I just think of it as an "I am a terrible Assault pilot" thread.

Don't blame assault pilots. There's equal suckage amongst all the classes

[Noesis]

Lrms r OK

[JP Josh]

Mystere, on 23 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

I know of only one. The other alleged ones are nothing but trauma-induced hallucinations.

im guilty of taking part of lurm agaiden when their dmg was 2.0 in closed beta but oddly enough mediums kept those scout mechs away from the lurm throwers back then.....

[MischiefSC]

Running LRMs in group queue.

TW, 50 tubes, 2CERMLs, tag, crap ton of ammo.

Wrecking face. Crushing dreams. Shockingly effective - far more so than the same build in PUGs. 6 of us in the group, we are running several matches in a row where we accounted for 11 of 12 kills.

I admit, I'm surprised. LRMs in pugs are alright but not phenomenal. With good support against even a decent team, even on River City.... sweet baby jesus, it's like getting to stuff a raised middle finger in someones face and laugh.

[Ngamok]

Far right?

Edited by Ngamok, 24 July 2014 - 07:00 AM.

[EvilCow]

LRMs are not OP but definitely annoying and game breaking, annoying things make the game worse.

They need a *rework* not a buff/nerf. Indirect fire by just observation is what I think should be removed and return, may be, with the C3 unit implementation.

[Sorbic]

No, he means exactly what he said. Also, when traversing to said other areas (which might mean being in the open for short bursts) you don't have to worry about every PPC being lobbed at you. Just the ones from folks who can see you. So no, direct fire weapons won't kill you faster when you make a break for X zone and get spotted by a single light.

[Steel Claws]

Right now LRM boats are routinely scoring well over 1000 points of damage per drop. I just did over 900 points of damage with a stormcrow with just 3 LRM 10s. They are able to tear smaller mechs to pieces quickly if caught in the open - not just assault mechs. LRMs really didn't need the pinpoint damage buff they got. They were fine before. Now either they need to be returned to the splash damage format or be toned down to about .95 damage each or the heat needs to be raised so that big salvos are harder to do - penalize the boats but let more balanced configs be fine.


To conclude I will leave you with this, I've seen what the 4 LRM 20 Warhawk can do. If any other mech in the game was capable of 88 points of damage in an alpha without line of sight people would be screaming. Even if only half hit, that's 44 points.

Edited by Steel Claws, 24 July 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Koniving]

Ngamok, on 24 July 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Far right?

That is one thing I noticed. The missiles are ridiculously huge.

The mechs are so ridiculously huge, too. You know, 8 to 14 meters made mechs pretty reasonably sized. The ones here reach 17.8 in height, and the 'tiny' mechs which are usually (depending on the shape) between 1.5 to 3 stories tall are over 4 stories tall. Even with the oversized Atlas in MW3, it was only 5.5 floors tall. That's just barely over 14 meters, where the Timber Wolf was about 2/3rds its height. Dire Wolves are in lore 12.3 meters (the height of MWO's Hunchback).

From the tech manual and a few other little sources, know how big an LRM is supposed to be? The size of a stinger missile. Missiles are 70mm to 75mm in diameter and while they have varying lengths, you'd still have to fit 120 within a 0.25 ton container with separators that can feed into the loader. A 10 ton Farfire rapid-loading 5 tube LRM-20 launcher can churn out 4 volleys of five missiles between 8 and 10 seconds right on the lore if that says anything, and these are very tiny missiles compared to what we see in MWO.

A lot of what we see is pretty ridiculous, and if PGI stuck to that scale, I believe we'd see a lot more space even on the tiny maps (and without having to make the huge ones so big, they'd have more room for little details like trash on the streets and more vividly detailed areas or...even dare I say it...destruction!)

[Koniving]

Steel Claws, on 24 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

To conclude I will leave you with this, I've seen what the 4 LRM 20 Warhawk can do. If any other mech in the game was capable of 88 points of damage in an alpha without line of sight people would be screaming. Even if only half hit, that's 44 points.

It's not possible to make a 4 LRM-20 Warhawk.
2 LRM-20s and 2 LRM-15s is the best you can get.

On that note, Catapult A1s have been capable of a 90 missile alpha strike. The more LRMs you fire at once though the more the game spreads them. You'd cover an area 2 Atlases wide firing 90 LRMs at once. Awesomes are still capable of 80 missile alpha strikes (and in fact are the only mechs who still can).

Ain't nobody caring or using them though, despite the exact same CT issue that Warhawks have.

The main issue is they can spam, which means they can overwhelm and neutralize your AMS (even with triple AMS it's possible to stop them from destroying missiles). When missiles can be fired that fast, non-stop... there's a problem.

That's LRMs with current damage but splash.


This is LRMs with 1.8 damage.

Still isn't doing ****. Lots of spam needed. But one thing you might notice is the reload times are longer. Considerably so.

Another thing is the missiles were slower (which now that they are faster, we can handle slower reload times again with a damage buff as a spam reducer).

But most of all, notice the flight patterns? Those encouraged misses. Except when the Artemis Drill started, then it's like "ZOMG" and fear/panic. But that's so many fewer LRMs in the ammo box.

Reducing ammo count back to the canon 120 would help as well.

[Koniving]

These missiles were 1.7 and could kill by legging rather than pure Center Torso slaughter.


Notice the firing speed? The missile flight speed? Take our current flight speed or even speed it up, but reduce the firing rate to that of the 4J video or slower (Clan streaks have a very solid, realistic-feeling firing rate. 3.75 up to 7 seconds). Possibly a slight damage buff to maintain the current DPS and make up for the slower firing rate... and LRMs would actually be a tactical weapon that you want to protect like in closed beta, rather than an easy button where you sit and read celebrity gossip rags while sipping coffee and farming .

(My only problem with LRMs is the spam. It never ends. Mechs don't heat up enough to stop throwing missiles once in a while due to the incredibly high threshold rates.)

[Variant1]

Koniving, on 24 July 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

These missiles were 1.7 and could kill by legging rather than pure Center Torso slaughter.
Notice the firing speed? The missile flight speed? Take our current flight speed or even speed it up, but reduce the firing rate to that of the 4J video or slower (Clan streaks have a very solid, realistic-feeling firing rate. 3.75 up to 7 seconds). Possibly a slight damage buff to maintain the current DPS and make up for the slower firing rate... and LRMs would actually be a tactical weapon that you want to protect like in closed beta, rather than an easy button where you sit and read celebrity gossip rags while sipping coffee and farming .
(My only problem with LRMs is the spam. It never ends. Mechs don't heat up enough to stop throwing missiles once in a while due to the incredibly high threshold rates.)

how bout removing that arc? no more over the hills bs and more on action, so you know ppl stop hididng behind hills.

[mike29tw]

Indirect fire is the ****** up part about LRMs.

It doesn't matter what mech you're in, when you encounter a lone enemy mech, a supposedly 1 on 1 encounter turns into 1 vs. 5 LRM boats. Unless, of course, you have ECM, then you remove the enemy team's ability to attack you behind cover with impunity.

Tag and Narc should be required for indirect fire IMO, then we can tune the behavior of indirect and direct fire of LRMs respectively.

[Variant1]

Wolfways, on 23 July 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

How do you design a weapon that can hit people at long range without them being able to step behind cover to completely negate it?
1) Maps with less cover on them. Except players already complain about the tiny, nothing-but-cover arenas we have now, saying there is no cover....
2) Increase the projectile speed to around 1000ms like most long range weapons. Except players would complain that it's too fast because it's like....other weapons.... Besides 1000ms missiles would look weird.
LRM's will always suck because players want arenas instead of battlefields.
Maybe that's what we need...modes. Solaris (current maps with stadium background) and battlefield (big maps with terrain similar to the amount Alpine has...maybe a bit more).

yup lock-on over hills is sucky but a weapon that require you to aim is too strong. better start a voting poll for lrms to go through cover f it hasnt already went over it.

Wolfways, on 23 July 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

The only Lurmageddon i remember is the Artemis one. Other than that LRM's have always sucked.
You mean the open areas, where direct-fire weapons will kill you a lot faster?

yup they always sucked. i mean people only use lrms out of pity of there weakness, no a sucky weapon can be op if everyone uses it right?

[terrycloth]

Indirect fire is the entire point of LRMs. Without it they're worthless because you'd need to stare at the enemy for five seconds. And people complain about clan large lasers needing two! Also, they could see the missiles coming and step behind cover. LRMs that didn't have an arc and didn't do indirect fire would have to be as fast as gauss rifle shots, at least. Which is completely absurd.

Also, it would make the game worse by reducing variety.

[Variant1]

terrycloth, on 05 September 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Indirect fire is the entire point of LRMs. Without it they're worthless because you'd need to stare at the enemy for five seconds. And people complain about clan large lasers needing two! Also, they could see the missiles coming and step behind cover. LRMs that didn't have an arc and didn't do indirect fire would have to be as fast as gauss rifle shots, at least. Which is completely absurd.
Also, it would make the game worse by reducing variety.

Well if thats its point then its broken and cheap, its not 5 seconds its 1, the variety is nowhere to be found just hit r and left click, oh right if variety entails shooting missiles over hills then SURE thats great game breaking variety. Not to mention its a lock-on weapon, and lock-ons take no skill because the weapon aims for you.

edit:removing the arc would not make the game worse it would stop missile spam over hills and cover more viable. right because all the smart people fire at enemies that are next to cover with lrms...... how bout equipping lasers?

Edited by Variant1, 05 September 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Wolfways]

Variant1, on 05 September 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

yup they always sucked. i mean people only use lrms out of pity of there weakness, no a sucky weapon can be op if everyone uses it right?

Not always, but most of the time yes. People started using them again recently because they were buffed to the point where they are barely viable (mostly if boated), plus clan launchers weigh so little that they are more worth carrying as secondary weapons.

You will always see lots of LRM's in low ELO matches because new/bad players die easily to them, but in higher ELO they are rare. I'm probably around mid ELO and while i see many LRM's (but rarely any boats) they don't really do much damage unless they have a really good scout helping them.
But even if the LRM user has a good scout helping him you can still almost completely avoid missiles by hugging terrain as you move around the map.

Edit: Just realized who i was responding to. Sorry, there is no easy mode in this multiplayer game.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 September 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Artgathan]

How about we give Clan LRMs their minimum range back.

[Wolfways]

Artgathan, on 05 September 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

How about we give Clan LRMs their minimum range back.

They aren't supposed to have a minimum range.

Actually, IS LRM's are supposed to be able to hit at point blank range for full damage, but it is harder to hit under minimum range.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 September 2014 - 12:39 PM.