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Lrms Op Or Up?

Balance General Weapons

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#1 Koniving

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:21 PM

So.. I've heard it both ways. "LRMs are OP" because they spam endlessly and you can't see a damn thing due to the blur.

Then you sit there being pelted non-stop for 3 to 5 minutes before you actually die...while standing behind cover that isn't doing anything for you.

...and that makes me wonder if they are really under powered but spammy as heck?

Then I was watching one of my own videos and it finally dawned on me.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 23 July 2014 - 04:22 PM.


#2 Ryokens leap

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:30 PM

ummm... I think my wife has one of those.

#3 MechB Kotare

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:36 PM

Both. I think they should get speed and damage buff, and nerfed cooldown (recycle rate) by at least 40% - 60%.

I do love the picture however.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 23 July 2014 - 04:36 PM.


#4 Impyrium

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

Wait... the missiles actually have models? I demand custom missile MC packs!

Just to throw some petrol on the fire, I've noticed that the majority of players that complain about LRMs being OP are the ones that were unlucky enough to die by them ten seconds earlier. I was playing my LRM set up Timber Wolf before, and sure enough, the vast majority of missiles kills I did achieve immediately commented that it's still the LRM apocalypse and OP OP OP.

To these people- these kills I scored were fairly rare, AND, I never have scored a kill on a 'Mech intelligent enough to either stay around cover, or to jump on me and make my missiles worthless. The kills I did score tended to be in open areas, where I had clear shots (not blind mind you) and was able to simply overwhelm them. 4xcLRM15 will do a number on you. To be fair to those people I killed, they really didn't have a chance to get to cover in their situations, they were far too out in the open to escape.

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 23 July 2014 - 04:51 PM.


#5 FupDup

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:56 PM

It's pretty hard to tell if they're OP or UP because of how fusterclucked their mechanics are.

There are way too many variables on the mech carrying them, on the mech getting shot, on the terrain between those mechs, and so on to really determine if they are overall "balanced." In some situations they're bloody useless and in others they seem ridiculous.

I think Lurms probably need to be redesigned from the ground up to provide more consistent/reliable/predictable results, because right now they're mostly a "pendulum swing" kind of weapon that PGI has been struggling to get in a good place since pretty much forever. I recall that there have been at least 3-4 "Lurmageddon" episodes to date, and in between each episode Lurms were generally underpowered as heck. It's time for a reboot already. Back to the bloody drawing board with ye.

---

What I can say for sure, though, is that having motion blur (in addition to normal cockpit shake) from getting hit by anything is incredibly obnoxious (Lurms just so happen to be one of the worst offenders).

#6 Mystere

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:06 PM

View PostFupDup, on 23 July 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

I recall that there have been at least 3-4 "Lurmageddon" episodes to date ...


I know of only one. The other alleged ones are nothing but trauma-induced hallucinations.

Edited by Mystere, 23 July 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#7 Wolfways

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:25 PM

View PostFupDup, on 23 July 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

It's pretty hard to tell if they're OP or UP because of how fusterclucked their mechanics are.

There are way too many variables on the mech carrying them, on the mech getting shot, on the terrain between those mechs, and so on to really determine if they are overall "balanced." In some situations they're bloody useless and in others they seem ridiculous.

I think Lurms probably need to be redesigned from the ground up to provide more consistent/reliable/predictable results, because right now they're mostly a "pendulum swing" kind of weapon that PGI has been struggling to get in a good place since pretty much forever. I recall that there have been at least 3-4 "Lurmageddon" episodes to date, and in between each episode Lurms were generally underpowered as heck. It's time for a reboot already. Back to the bloody drawing board with ye.

---

What I can say for sure, though, is that having motion blur (in addition to normal cockpit shake) from getting hit by anything is incredibly obnoxious (Lurms just so happen to be one of the worst offenders).

How do you design a weapon that can hit people at long range without them being able to step behind cover to completely negate it?
1) Maps with less cover on them. Except players already complain about the tiny, nothing-but-cover arenas we have now, saying there is no cover....
2) Increase the projectile speed to around 1000ms like most long range weapons. Except players would complain that it's too fast because it's like....other weapons.... Besides 1000ms missiles would look weird.

LRM's will always suck because players want arenas instead of battlefields.

Maybe that's what we need...modes. Solaris (current maps with stadium background) and battlefield (big maps with terrain similar to the amount Alpine has...maybe a bit more).

Edited by Wolfways, 23 July 2014 - 05:34 PM.


#8 Mcgral18

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

View PostMystere, on 23 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:


I know of only one. The other alleged ones are nothing but trauma-induced hallucinations.


I think I remember 2 distinct ones that can be called Lurmageddons, and 4 according to the forums. Artemis divebombs, and the splash damage coring heads out in short order?

The 4th "Lurmageddon" being the 175 M/s....which was pretty laughable.

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 July 2014 - 07:02 PM.


#9 Lynx7725

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

View PostKoniving, on 23 July 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Spoiler


FWIW the SRM models are pretty much the same:

Posted Image

Posted Image

#10 Koniving

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:39 PM

Bullets tend to be as well. AC rounds appear to be the same.

#11 Kiiyor

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:44 PM

View PostRyokens leap, on 23 July 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

ummm... I think my wife has one of those.


Thank you kind sir, for my first good laugh of the day.

I think the fins are for stabilization.

#12 SmurfOff

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:46 PM

What the world needs now is a new LRM post.....

#13 FupDup

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:48 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 23 July 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:


I think I remember 2 distinct ones that can be called Lurmageddons, and 4 according to the forums. Artemis divebombs, and the splash damage coring heads out in short order?

The 4th being the 175 M/s....which was pretty laughable.

I don't consider the speed buff to be a "Lurmageddon" episode. The ones I remember by name are the two you mentioned, but I coulda sworn there was at least 1-2 more prior to either of those above...

#14 Heeden

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:54 PM

Currently I think their verging on OP, but not catastrophically so. They're avoidable but they make certain areas of the maps almost certain death which makes matches a bit samey as everyone always tries to stick to the same corridors to fight in the same locations.

#15 Wolfways

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:55 PM

The only Lurmageddon i remember is the Artemis one. Other than that LRM's have always sucked.

View PostHeeden, on 23 July 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Currently I think their verging on OP, but not catastrophically so. They're avoidable but they make certain areas of the maps almost certain death which makes matches a bit samey as everyone always tries to stick to the same corridors to fight in the same locations.

You mean the open areas, where direct-fire weapons will kill you a lot faster?

#16 Heeden

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:00 PM

View PostWolfways, on 23 July 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

You mean the open areas, where direct-fire weapons will kill you a lot faster?


Direct fire weapons require line-of-sight, it's possible to look and see if enemies are covering that area. With LRMs a single scout spying on you can bring down fire from any LRM user within 1000m without any major changes in position.

#17 Wolfways

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:29 PM

View PostHeeden, on 23 July 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:


Direct fire weapons require line-of-sight, it's possible to look and see if enemies are covering that area. With LRMs a single scout spying on you can bring down fire from any LRM user within 1000m without any major changes in position.

So what's the difference? You see the enemy are covering the area and don't go there. It has nothing to do with LRM's.

#18 DivineEvil

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:29 PM

-LRMs takes a middle-ground between Energy and Ballistics. They weight quite a bit and take a considerable space.
-LRMs require ammunition, while still generating excess heat.
-LRMs has lower kill potential due to accuracy, while also having higher raw damage potential, which makes them 25% more dangerous to carry around compared to Ballistic shells. And you have to carry a lot.
-LRMs and SSRMs are only weapons having equipment specifically aimed against them - AMS and ECM. Equipment that enchance them - BAP and NARC, - takes more weight or less effective generally. Nothing counters Energy, SRMs or Ballistics, except for your armor.

Considering all this, LRMs are in the best shape now than they ever been. They do exactly what they're supposed to. The only singificant benefit of indirect fire is migitated by the fact, that some areas are impenetrable for LRMs completely no matter what. LRMs is simply a balance element, which alone counters a Melee rush.

The only problem with LRMs as of now is the number of players who neither has skills for direct long-range combat, nor has balls for close-range engagements. This number diminishes as you gain more elo. Also general USA solo public seems to be basically obsessed with LRMs for some reason.

#19 Livewyr

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

It depends.

Are you on Caustic Valley?
Do you have ECM?

#20 Sephlock

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostWolfways, on 23 July 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

The only Lurmageddon i remember is the Artemis one. Other than that LRM's have always sucked.


You mean the open areas, where direct-fire weapons will kill you a lot faster?

^ This.

Also, this.





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