133 replies to this topic

[Roland]

1453 R, on 25 July 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

All right wise guy, you want to give me the sass?

There’s a whole world of difference between a button which removes all removable/inventory-storable equipment from a ‘Mech – equipment which is already flagged as inventory-storable and thus requires no extra attention from the programmers – and a button which strips a ‘Mech, reconfigures its semi-fixed upgrades (endo/ferro/DHS/Artemis) for zero money instead of the usual lots-of-money, compares your ‘Mech to a database location containing the ‘proper’ version of that particular machine, searches your inventory for all the required components and auto-builds the ‘Mech for you, then substitutes that ‘Mech for the ‘Mech you actually dropped in, all within the small span of time the game has to load you into the game. On top of reversing all of these changes – properly, every single time, or there will be Hell to pay – every time you drop back out of a match.

One of these is merely an automated repetition of a single task - drag everything draggable off the 'Mech. Another one is a simulation of some serious effort by the player, as well as a lot of extra storage requirements in order to save the 'Mech's original configuration so it can be safely reverted back to that configuration after dropping out of a stock mode match.

Yes, a mutator system is a much larger and more ornery task than a “remove all removeable equipment” button. Go take a programming 101 class before opening your mouth again.

You don't really need to do any of that stuff.
You just take whatever variant they are dropping with, and replace it in game with the stock variant that is stored in the database of mechs that you get when you buy them.

You don't actually need to bother looking through your inventory and building up that mech. You just temporarily give them the stock version for the duration of the match.

[Sandpit]

Niko is talking about having events and tournaments for stock mechs. Not a stock mode lol

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Niko is talking about having events and tournaments for stock mechs. Not a stock mode lol

But having an 'official' stock event would require having the ability to enforce stock builds, right? Having that kind of architecture would be a major step towards coding a 'stock only' mode. That's why I think they might show support for player made stock nights/leagues, but not actually run those events themselves.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 25 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

But having an 'official' stock event would require having the ability to enforce stock builds, right? Having that kind of architecture would be a major step towards coding a 'stock only' mode. That's why I think they might show support for player made stock nights/leagues, but not actually run those events themselves.

not really
Just make it "compete in a stock mech for xx matches over this weekend and win a free mechbay"
Doesn't have to be anything fancy. They have framework for stuff like this already. They have rewarded players for dropping so that is already in place. All they would need to do is set up a check of some kind for that event and anyone who uses a stock build earns whatever the event is set up for.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

not really
Just make it "compete in a stock mech for xx matches over this weekend and win a free mechbay"
Doesn't have to be anything fancy. They have framework for stuff like this already. They have rewarded players for dropping so that is already in place. All they would need to do is set up a check of some kind for that event and anyone who uses a stock build earns whatever the event is set up for.

Right, they would need a system that would check and make sure every stock mech was valid. The same kind of system they would need to use to see if mechs were stock in a 'stock game mode'.

[Sandpit]

nah, that system would have to be added to a new queue, restrictions on being able to drop in that queue, etc.

running an event just lets you earn something if you choose to drop in a stock mech and just tracks it after the fact.

[Jack Corban]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

nah, that system would have to be added to a new queue, restrictions on being able to drop in that queue, etc.

running an event just lets you earn something if you choose to drop in a stock mech and just tracks it after the fact.

Its Ok Sandpit we get it you are against it just cause. No Problem. Doesn't make this a bad idea. Just an Idea that you choose for whatever reason to dislike. We get it.

[Davers]

Jack Corban, on 25 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Its Ok Sandpit we get it you are against it just cause. No Problem. Doesn't make this a bad idea. Just an Idea that you choose for whatever reason to dislike. We get it.

I don't think Sandpit is against it any more than I am. He thinks PGI should have stock events instead of a new game mode. I don't think we will see either. Not because I don't like stock events (I have played in Stock Mondays), but I don't think PGI is going to support either (with actual coding, I am sure they will Tweet or make announcements).

[VanillaG]

1453 R, on 25 July 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

All right wise guy, you want to give me the sass?

There’s a whole world of difference between a button which removes all removable/inventory-storable equipment from a ‘Mech – equipment which is already flagged as inventory-storable and thus requires no extra attention from the programmers – and a button which strips a ‘Mech, reconfigures its semi-fixed upgrades (endo/ferro/DHS/Artemis) for zero money instead of the usual lots-of-money, compares your ‘Mech to a database location containing the ‘proper’ version of that particular machine, searches your inventory for all the required components and auto-builds the ‘Mech for you, then substitutes that ‘Mech for the ‘Mech you actually dropped in, all within the small span of time the game has to load you into the game. On top of reversing all of these changes – properly, every single time, or there will be Hell to pay – every time you drop back out of a match.

One of these is merely an automated repetition of a single task - drag everything draggable off the 'Mech. Another one is a simulation of some serious effort by the player, as well as a lot of extra storage requirements in order to save the 'Mech's original configuration so it can be safely reverted back to that configuration after dropping out of a stock mode match.

Yes, a mutator system is a much larger and more ornery task than a “remove all removeable equipment” button. Go take a programming 101 class before opening your mouth again.

As Roland pointed out, at the point you inject you mech loadout into the match you put a check in to see if it is stock mode. If it is stock mode, load the stock loadout and if it is not load your custom loadout. The idea is that once you purchase the mech you can revert it to stock mode if the match requires it. There is no need to reconfigure the mech and deal with inventory.

When you look at custom private matches, there are a lot more ***** and switches that you can mess with than regular public matches. All this would be is another switch that you can throw into the game engine. Not knowing how the code is laid out I can't make a determination on how easy or hard it is to implement. Realistically this would not be implemented until after CW is completed but putting this idea in the devs minds might mean that if they have to make changes to the engine this might be implemented sooner.

[Davers]

VanillaG, on 25 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

As Roland pointed out, at the point you inject you mech loadout into the match you put a check in to see if it is stock mode. If it is stock mode, load the stock loadout and if it is not load your custom loadout. The idea is that once you purchase the mech you can revert it to stock mode if the match requires it. There is no need to reconfigure the mech and deal with inventory.

When you look at custom private matches, there are a lot more ***** and switches that you can mess with than regular public matches. All this would be is another switch that you can throw into the game engine. Not knowing how the code is laid out I can't make a determination on how easy or hard it is to implement. Realistically this would not be implemented until after CW is completed but putting this idea in the devs minds might mean that if they have to make changes to the engine this might be implemented sooner.

Pretty sure a "return to stock configuration" button was asked for since closed beta. Maybe we will get one after we get that Smurfy style mechlab.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

you can only split the queues so many times
solo
groups
stock
lights only
casual groups
competitive groups

Those are all threads and topics started within the last week or so. So if every one of those got their wish how long do you think you'd be waiting for a match? Sorry, but I'm sticking with my private matches response. You simply cannot continue splitting queues like that. It won't work. Maybe if they had hundreds of thousands of players, but they don't. If you want stock only then use private matches and/or join player run leagues that use those rules.

It's not a matter of whether or not I personally like the idea, it's a matter of logistics and splitting the queues even further. Take it from someone who regularly waits well over 2-3 minutes every time they hit the launch button either in solo or group regardless of weight class, it won't work right now. Ther'es simply not enough players to support yet another queue.

The difference is that Stock mech's have a seriously deep setting related argument.

I wouldn't even mind if they just give us a lobby where people that choose "historical" battles slowly fill in the required mechs, much like World of Tanks. Put severe limits on it: one side had Hunchies, locusts, Catapults, and Awesomes.... the other side had jenners, Griffons, Dragons, and Victors. Stock only, provide a button to return your mech to stock for cost.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 25 July 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I don't think Sandpit is against it any more than I am. He thinks PGI should have stock events instead of a new game mode. I don't think we will see either. Not because I don't like stock events (I have played in Stock Mondays), but I don't think PGI is going to support either (with actual coding, I am sure they will Tweet or make announcements).

it's just another player getting butthurt because you explain something to them lol

It's strange, I don't ever remember saying I liked or disliked the idea, just pointed out what I thought Niko was talking about and that you can use private matches lol You get used to it when you have a "fan club" like I do though

Prezimonto, on 25 July 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

The difference is that Stock mech's have a seriously deep setting related argument.

I wouldn't even mind if they just give us a lobby where people that choose "historical" battles slowly fill in the required mechs, much like World of Tanks. Put severe limits on it: one side had Hunchies, locusts, Catapults, and Awesomes.... the other side had jenners, Griffons, Dragons, and Victors. Stock only, provide a button to return your mech to stock for cost.

For the reasons above though I sincerely doubt PGI can do it. There's simply not a large enough player base.

[General Taskeen]

Yokaiko, on 25 July 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

How many people are going to want to run around mechs with a 1/3 of the cooling they need and two tons of ammo at most.

.........might be like 10, but I'd wager it would get boring pretty fast.

I think there seems to be a lot misconceptions about Stock Mode. I can definitely say, straight up, there are way more variants and Mechs I've seen people use in stock matches than in the main mode. Its also balanced through parity; For example, let's say you are going up against a Hunchback-4G, in your own 4G, both have the same exact stuff, same amount of ammo. Or if you want the fastest Recon Mechs? Locust, Spider, and Cicada only. Yeah MWO's heat system is not very good (and flamers are totally bonkers bad), but it works fine enough - you don't have to worry about crazy builds with thresholds over 80. Over all its a totally different kind of game-play, usually with longer, drawn out battles.

The reason why people want it is because it has a been a traditional mode in mostly every Mech Warrior game for over 10+ years. There is a reason why it was so popular back in the day, it represents traditional old-timey BattleTech better. Its also why MPBT3025 was a stock only game made by Kesmai, it was easier to balance.

Traditionally MW games have been about more options, not less options like MWO:



Mech Warrior 3 server options (from the guide):



The way to do it properly though would mean having a couple different types, "Classic 3025" (Tech 1) and "3050" separated into both "IS vs IS Only" or "IS vs. Clan"

Forcing people to play one mode is ridiculous. Frankly it should have been a mode in-game from day 1 since they added specific variants to the game. I also think the World of Tanks style server matching was totally the wrong way to go. Private matches in the way they are programmed in MWO can take time to setup, plus we can not really communicate with players that don't visit the forums or elsewhere at all.

A description from one of the old MW4 stock leagues:

"Why Stock 'Mechs? Because tactically it is a whole new ball game, and a fresh change from the tactics used in custom games. With Stock 'Mechs, you know your enemy's strengths and weaknesses. You are forced to build your tactics based on this information, combined with the abilities of your own 'Mech - it's VERY challenging and lots of fun!"

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 July 2014 - 08:43 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

For the reasons above though I sincerely doubt PGI can do it. There's simply not a large enough player base.

I would depend how they implement it. If it's just another queue, it might over take everything. If they ease in with a "fill a team" model with severe restrictions, and a different battle set every patch then a limited number of people will be playing it at any time and they'll pick up sales (possibly) on rare mechs, patch to patch.

[Yokaiko]

Jack Corban, on 25 July 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I mean let me be clear here. They have everything they need to put this in place.
They can have different ques as shown in solo & group ques.
They have the Database sitting in the background to see what a Stock loadout is and what is not.
So really all they need to do is enable the game client to have an additional que for matchmaking.
And if they wanna be really lazy about it they could just make it so if you select Mech "X" that is currently customized and you drop on Stock que then the game gets the Stock loadout out of the database for that particular mech and sets it to that.
and as soon as you drop out of the game its back to what it was beforehand.

It's all doable and its not hurting anyone. So why not just do it as a fanservice?

Ontop of that PGI has taken notice of the Stockmech events.



So you see. If people think its a good idea they should show support and we might actually get what we wish for.

That said please support this if not for yourselfe then atleast for the rest of us. Thank you

Man should have balanced stock before turning us lose with the mechlab.

[Sandpit]

Prezimonto, on 25 July 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

I would depend how they implement it. If it's just another queue, it might over take everything. If they ease in with a "fill a team" model with severe restrictions, and a different battle set every patch then a limited number of people will be playing it at any time and they'll pick up sales (possibly) on rare mechs, patch to patch.

doesn't matter HOW you implement it, the number of players remains the same. With solo and group queues we are already seeing increased wait times to find matches in both queues.

I'm averaging about 2-3 minutes now, I'm NOT going to sit around for 5+ minutes to find a match. I sincerely doubt any casual players would do it and would move on to something that they can actually play as opposed to watching a loading screen for 5+ minutes. Then as they move on the player base would dwindle.

Again, players already have this option. This is the kind of thing that private matches were designed for. There's also player leagues available for these types of matches. There's just no way the game would handle yet another queue well. Everyone wants ot play "their" way. I've seen no less than 3 "we need a queue for this mode" type threads in the past week or so. So we should give everyone a specific queue for how they want to play the game? That's just impossible to do. Private matches are perfect for this.

[Thorn Hallis]

Jack Corban, on 25 July 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yeah you don't see that in stock.

...yet. Why? Because its played by enthusiasts only atm. Make it "official" and sooner or later people will realize that some stock 'Mechs are much superior to others and so have an excellent farming ground to pad their stats.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 25 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

doesn't matter HOW you implement it, the number of players remains the same. With solo and group queues we are already seeing increased wait times to find matches in both queues.

I'm averaging about 2-3 minutes now, I'm NOT going to sit around for 5+ minutes to find a match. I sincerely doubt any casual players would do it and would move on to something that they can actually play as opposed to watching a loading screen for 5+ minutes. Then as they move on the player base would dwindle.

Again, players already have this option. This is the kind of thing that private matches were designed for. There's also player leagues available for these types of matches. There's just no way the game would handle yet another queue well. Everyone wants ot play "their" way. I've seen no less than 3 "we need a queue for this mode" type threads in the past week or so. So we should give everyone a specific queue for how they want to play the game? That's just impossible to do. Private matches are perfect for this.

I'd agree with you if we could earn rewards in private matches. I don't play much outside of stock nights because outside of a brief stint with clan mechs the main game just isn't much fun anymore. I'm looking for reason to play again, like many people. Stock games are significantly more satisfying because you're much less likely to get obliterated in 3 seconds, and when you bring a mech down you really feel you accomplished something.

The reason I suggested the method I did is that it will appeal to less players at any one time, with a hard limit on the types of mechs present. I would pose a way for the devs to bring ALL the various types of matches into the game 2 or 3 a patch: want a "mercenary scout" battle? ie custom lights? okay... for a few weeks. Want 3020 historical battle? Okay for a few weeks. So any given patch would see us with a small sub-set of possible special choices, taking far less players out of queue than an entire new generic queue.

Add that Achievements shouldn't be possible in these types of matches. Anyway I understand you not wanting a queue split because you're on the edge of not having fun, many of us asking for this have already reached that point.

[Pjwned]

It's not that I don't support stock mech queues but I would much rather see stock mechs actually be viable outside of their own closed off little pocket instead of "oh you hate your stock mech because it's awful well just don't play outside of the stock queue and it's fine."

I also understand that a stock queue probably takes less work but really, the fact that we need a separate queue for them to be viable just highlights a really big problem.

[Jack Corban]

Pjwned, on 26 July 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

It's not that I don't support stock mech queues but I would much rather see stock mechs actually be viable outside of their own closed off little pocket instead of "oh you hate your stock mech because it's awful well just don't play outside of the stock queue and it's fine."

I also understand that a stock queue probably takes less work but really, the fact that we need a separate queue for them to be viable just highlights a really big problem.

The Reason why Stockmechs are not viable for general queue is

• Heat balancing (even though most mechs easily escape Ghostheat)
  
• The game has no Hardpoint size restriction (Gausscatapult......)
  
• There is allways gonna be a mech in the same weightclass that has similar hardpoints but has jumpjets. (looking at you AC/20 Blackjack BJ-1

Search the Archives and you might actually find my old post about weapon balancing and Hardpoint limitations should have been done in this game if you want to know more about the issue. Fact is that Stockmechs are fun. Everymech has its quirks. Every Mech and be it the Urbanmech even has its own right and role that it can shine in.




There is just somthing that went missing along with customizing mechs. I'm talking about learning when to attack and when to fall back. Its Learning how to use your strenght of your particular chassis and be it the Locust and make the enemy work to catch you on your bad side. I have seen Dragons rip **** apart in Stock matches. When has that ever happened asides from Hero Dragons that got customized for the General Queue.

Stock is a fun way to play the game. And yes there will be Chassis that people find easier to play in Stock aswell. But those chassis have weakspots and negative quirks aswell. Either be it Heat management or Ammocount or speed or what ever. The Real challenge in Stock is to relearn the game from ground up. Learn your strenghts and the enemies weaknesses. Make your moves accordingly to what you learned and you will be rewarded. Play Your Mech like you allways did in general queue and you will bite the dust faster then you can say "Holy **** that Stockmech just ripped me apart"

Cheers

Here is an example of a Stock Match and how they play out.
Not allways but it certainly was refreshing to see a match last longer then the innitial engagement.

Edited by Jack Corban, 26 July 2014 - 06:46 AM.