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Tbr And Lrm Loadout Question


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#1 Odd Thomas

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:58 PM

LRM Timberwolf - which would generate more damage with this scenario?
I only have LoS 40% of time at most. no BAP

50 tubes + Artemis & Tag- 1980 missiles - 3 erml ( are 3 enough?)

or

60 tubes (no Artemis or Tag)) - 1980 missiles - 4 erml

Edited by Odd Thomas, 25 July 2014 - 07:59 PM.


#2 Redshift2k5

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

I wouldn't want to be downrange of either of them! That's a fairly blurry line to distinguish, how much the Artemis is going to be very dependant on positioning, style, teammates, map, etc. Running in a group or not would make a huge difference too.

#3 IraqiWalker

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:46 AM

If you lose Artemis it's better to add more ammo than tubes. The spread will reduce the damage, and your clan LRMs are already weak to start off. So you want more ammo if you sacrifice Artemis.

#4 Votanin FleshRender

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 05:08 AM

I dunno, that's 11 tons of ammo already... please take don't take my opinion very seriously, but I would think that's enough? I carry 8-9 tons on my missile boats and do ok, though I do run out. Gives me an incentive to charge in! ;)

I almost never use Artemis, personally... just haven't been able to see a large enough difference to justify the extra tonnage/crit spots. Actually, haven't ever been able to see any difference, but to be honest, I haven't paid THAT close of attention either.

Edited by Votanin FleshRender, 26 July 2014 - 05:09 AM.


#5 IraqiWalker

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 08:50 AM

On my heavy and assault LRM boats I prefer the ability to sustain fire for long periods of time. That is why the minimum Iwould carry is 12 tons of ammo for an LRM 50.

Artemis does tighten the spread, and it has a decent impact, allowing for better ammo efficiency. However, it becomes highly undesirable with a large number of launchers. 2 launchers, and artemis is great. 3 or 4, and it becomes a hassle and a pain.

It's also only really useful on LRM 15s and 20s. LRM 10s have a very decent spread, and LRM 5 s will practically hit the CT from the other side of the wall.

Not every LRM boat should have Artemis, and the play styles do differ from person to person. I like being able to sustain fire for the entire match, helping my team for a solid 10 minutes or so. Basically I go the extreme way with LRM support. If I'm taking my assault mech from the front line, I'm going to make sure the enemy team can't tell the difference, and make their lives a living hell while they are dealing with my team.

Other pilots put about 6-8 tons of ammo, so they can provide support while they are closing the distance to the front line, and then use their other weapons to deal the bulk of their damage, while LRMs are used for close support.

Each style has it's pros and cons, and there are other styles out there, aside from those two.

#6 Koniving

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

It's pretty obvious if you're packing so many tubes you probably have one or two Timber Wolf S-configuration side torsos mounted.
Be aware that any S configuration side torsos will slow down your rate of fire. If you have both of them equipped then you are looking at a 10% slower firing rate.

Artemis wouldn't be very detrimental if you were only packing two launchers. ;)

Makes your hitboxes smaller, too (so you won't be as easy to kill at range).

As can be seen, the Timber Wolf on the left has a very large attachment slapped onto the narrow cylindrical body.
Posted Image

Edited by Koniving, 26 July 2014 - 09:14 AM.


#7 t Khrist

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:21 AM

View PostOdd Thomas, on 25 July 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

LRM Timberwolf - which would generate more damage with this scenario? I only have LoS 40% of time at most. no BAP 50 tubes + Artemis & Tag- 1980 missiles - 3 erml ( are 3 enough?) or 60 tubes (no Artemis or Tag)) - 1980 missiles - 4 erml


I don't understand how you're able to fit all of that into those builds, when I adjust my lrm build I come up a ton and a half short of fitting the second 2 ML's with that much ammo.

Here's a screenshot of what I run in my Timberwolf:

Posted Image

The seven tons of ammo is a little low, but as long as I don't waste volleys on questionable locks it's enough. My first match with this build I racked up more than 1000 damage so it works pretty well. You should give it a try, it is a pretty effective build.

See you on the battlefield!

#8 Konril

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 12:48 PM

Alas, at this time all I'm able to afford from the Clan side is a simple Kit Fox. But at least that's enough for me to do some experimenting.

As a test, I loaded on of my Kit Fox Mechs with an LRM 20, TAG, and NARC. With this configuration, I went into the testing grounds and did some firing at the front of an Atlas target at about 270m away and counted the number of missiles it took to kill that Atlas. I did each test 3 times in order to minimize any user error.

Missiles from a single LRM 20 needed to kill that Atlas:
Try 1: 440,
Try 2: 440,
Try 3: 460.

Same LRM 20 with TAG support:
Try 1: 380,
Try 2: 380,
Try 3: 380.

Same LRM 20 with NARC support (no TAG):
Try 1: 340,
Try 2: 340,
Try 3: 340.

Same LRM 20 with both NARC and TAG support:
Try 1: 300,
Try 2: 320,
Try 3: 300.

In each case, the Atlas was killed by a destroyed center torso. I also needed to use exactly 3 NARC pods each time I used the NARC for assistance.

Judging by the ammo used, The LRM with TAG support allowed 14% more of the missiles to strike the center torso, allowing the system to kill faster. With the NARC, about 23% more of the missiles fired struck the center torso. Combining both together, the kill was 32% faster.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to test the Artemis system, as I'm still building up my C-bills after outfitting 3 kit foxes and purchasing a radar deprivation module. But at least from this I can make an educated guess. The TAG-Artemis LRM 50 should be about as deadly in direct combat as an unassisted LRM 65, or possibly even an LRM 70 considering the smaller launchers are also faster. However indirectly, it's still just an LRM 50. So perhaps on average a 58? But that's just math.

To be honest, if you are in an LRM boat without a TAG, an enemy ECM mech like an Atlas-D-DDC can easily turn you into a 70 ton punching bag, since you can't lock your missiles on to something your radar can't detect. The LRM 50 with TAG and Artemis will have a decent chance to fight back if you're unlucky enough not to have allies with beagle probes or TAGs of their own. But if it's the pure LRM 60 without assistance, that Atlas-DDC is going to see you as an easy target with no defense. Personally, I have gotten into the habit of carrying active probes and TAG on every mech I can fit it on so allied LRM mechs don't become helpless. But frankly I don't see a lot other people willing to do that.

But, on the flipside, if you are lucky enough to find one of those really generous light pilots willing to carry a TAG and NARC for pure spotting purposes, your LRM 60 will be able see the performance of an LRM 80 until the spotter dies. NARCs don't help Artemis equipped mechs (beyond spotting) so the LRM 50 would only get the benefit of the spotter's TAG.

Does this make sense?

Regarding the lasers, 3 medium lasers is typically enough for self defense in a missile boat with the default 10 double heat sinks, but with the 5 extra permanently installed heat-sinks in the Timberwolf's engine, using 4 ER medium lasers is probably best for close-in self-defense. But from what I can see, even with 4 missile launchers in the torsos, it's still possible to have 5 energy points between the arms and the TBR-S's right side torso. Just swap the left arm for a Prime or C if you are building off of the S.

#9 IraqiWalker

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 01:18 AM

View PostKonril, on 26 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Alas, at this time all I'm able to afford from the Clan side is a simple Kit Fox. But at least that's enough for me to do some experimenting.

As a test, I loaded on of my Kit Fox Mechs with an LRM 20, TAG, and NARC. With this configuration, I went into the testing grounds and did some firing at the front of an Atlas target at about 270m away and counted the number of missiles it took to kill that Atlas. I did each test 3 times in order to minimize any user error.

Missiles from a single LRM 20 needed to kill that Atlas:
Try 1: 440,
Try 2: 440,
Try 3: 460.

Same LRM 20 with TAG support:
Try 1: 380,
Try 2: 380,
Try 3: 380.

Same LRM 20 with NARC support (no TAG):
Try 1: 340,
Try 2: 340,
Try 3: 340.

Same LRM 20 with both NARC and TAG support:
Try 1: 300,
Try 2: 320,
Try 3: 300.

In each case, the Atlas was killed by a destroyed center torso. I also needed to use exactly 3 NARC pods each time I used the NARC for assistance.

Judging by the ammo used, The LRM with TAG support allowed 14% more of the missiles to strike the center torso, allowing the system to kill faster. With the NARC, about 23% more of the missiles fired struck the center torso. Combining both together, the kill was 32% faster.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to test the Artemis system, as I'm still building up my C-bills after outfitting 3 kit foxes and purchasing a radar deprivation module. But at least from this I can make an educated guess. The TAG-Artemis LRM 50 should be about as deadly in direct combat as an unassisted LRM 65, or possibly even an LRM 70 considering the smaller launchers are also faster. However indirectly, it's still just an LRM 50. So perhaps on average a 58? But that's just math.

To be honest, if you are in an LRM boat without a TAG, an enemy ECM mech like an Atlas-D-DDC can easily turn you into a 70 ton punching bag, since you can't lock your missiles on to something your radar can't detect. The LRM 50 with TAG and Artemis will have a decent chance to fight back if you're unlucky enough not to have allies with beagle probes or TAGs of their own. But if it's the pure LRM 60 without assistance, that Atlas-DDC is going to see you as an easy target with no defense. Personally, I have gotten into the habit of carrying active probes and TAG on every mech I can fit it on so allied LRM mechs don't become helpless. But frankly I don't see a lot other people willing to do that.

But, on the flipside, if you are lucky enough to find one of those really generous light pilots willing to carry a TAG and NARC for pure spotting purposes, your LRM 60 will be able see the performance of an LRM 80 until the spotter dies. NARCs don't help Artemis equipped mechs (beyond spotting) so the LRM 50 would only get the benefit of the spotter's TAG.

Does this make sense?

Regarding the lasers, 3 medium lasers is typically enough for self defense in a missile boat with the default 10 double heat sinks, but with the 5 extra permanently installed heat-sinks in the Timberwolf's engine, using 4 ER medium lasers is probably best for close-in self-defense. But from what I can see, even with 4 missile launchers in the torsos, it's still possible to have 5 energy points between the arms and the TBR-S's right side torso. Just swap the left arm for a Prime or C if you are building off of the S.


That's a great study, and I look forward to more data from you.

One note though


Mechs in the testing grounds are all in stock set ups, as such going into game expecting to kill an Atlas with 440 missiles is going to fail. However, the demonstration of the buff received from the support system is what should be taken. Reducing ammo consumption by almost 30% is a huge buff. That can allow you to mount less ammo, and spend the weight on better armor, and more back up or secondary weapons.

#10 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:20 PM

View PostOdd Thomas, on 25 July 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

LRM Timberwolf - which would generate more damage with this scenario?
I only have LoS 40% of time at most. no BAP

50 tubes + Artemis & Tag- 1980 missiles - 3 erml ( are 3 enough?)

or

60 tubes (no Artemis or Tag)) - 1980 missiles - 4 erml


I would say: count the number of LRMs you usually shoot off before you die. Take that plus 1/2 ton or 1 ton. Use the rest for buffs to your mech. Take 4 erMLs, put a TAG on your CT (TBR-c) if you like it, use artemis, and take a targeting computer.

Also, JJs are very useful even to LRM mechs. It allows you to go places you cannot otherwise get to in order to spot the enemy and fire at them.

So I'd do something like this:

TBR-C

Edit: actually I'm not sure what a targeting computer would do for you as a missile boat. They are more useful for laser and projectile users. I'd get rid of it and put on another ton of ammo or the clan equivalent of BAP, which is useful for its increase in sensor range.

Edit 2: I see that your original already has a JJ, but with the current JJ characteristics you need more like 3-5. :)

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 27 July 2014 - 07:48 PM.


#11 IraqiWalker

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 08:29 PM

View PostJigglyMoobs, on 27 July 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Edit: actually I'm not sure what a targeting computer would do for you as a missile boat. They are more useful for laser and projectile users. I'd get rid of it and put on another ton of ammo or the clan equivalent of BAP, which is useful for its increase in sensor range.

Targeting computers are useless for LRMs, they only affect lasers and ballistic weapons.

#12 YaKillinMeSmalls

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 04:34 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

Targeting computers are useless for LRMs, they only affect lasers and ballistic weapons.


They increase sensor range as well. If you have a ton or two left over, adding one can be nice.

View PostKonril, on 26 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

As a test, I loaded on of my Kit Fox Mechs with an LRM 20, TAG, and NARC. With this configuration, I went into the testing grounds and did some firing at the front of an Atlas target at about 270m away and counted the number of missiles it took to kill that Atlas. I did each test 3 times in order to minimize any user error.


Is that an LRM20 with Artemis or without? Edit: Never mind, I saw this:

View PostKonril, on 26 July 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Unfortunately I wasn't able to test the Artemis system, as I'm still building up my C-bills after outfitting 3 kit foxes and purchasing a radar deprivation module.

Edited by YaKillinMeSmalls, 28 July 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#13 IraqiWalker

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostYaKillinMeSmalls, on 28 July 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:


They increase sensor range as well. If you have a ton or two left over, adding one can be nice.

True, however, for 1.5 tons you can mount a BAP that increases sensor range by 25%, coupled with Advanced Sensor Range module, you have a range of 1000 meters.

#14 YaKillinMeSmalls

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:30 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 28 July 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

True, however, for 1.5 tons you can mount a BAP that increases sensor range by 25%, coupled with Advanced Sensor Range module, you have a range of 1000 meters.


Posted Image

#15 IraqiWalker

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:37 AM

View PostYaKillinMeSmalls, on 01 August 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:


Posted Image

Interesting point, but the reason to not use both is that it becomes useless. Beyond 1000 Meters there's nothing to bother with locking on to. You shouldn't be firing LRMs beyond 800 meters anyways.

#16 YaKillinMeSmalls

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:47 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 01 August 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

Interesting point, but the reason to not use both is that it becomes useless. Beyond 1000 Meters there's nothing to bother with locking on to. You shouldn't be firing LRMs beyond 800 meters anyways.


I may not be in range, but some teammates with LRMs might. I mostly play lights, so I guess I'm thinking like a scout. Since I also only pug, it's kind of like trying to herd cats. I've found that the best way to herd cats is with a red 'dot' (or triangle, in this case).
"Oh look, an enemy! Let's all move together towards it since we don't see anything else yet." seems to be how people think. Use that to your advantage.

Of course, this presumes that you have a spare ton left after getting everything else you want. :P

Edited by YaKillinMeSmalls, 01 August 2014 - 05:56 PM.


#17 Kilo 40

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:48 PM

I don't know why so many people obsess over how many tubes they have. 50-60 is a complete wast of tonnage.

x2 LRM15s, no artemis, and 9 tones of ammo and you're good to go.





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