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A Student's Question - Help A Mentor Out?


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#1 Tarriss Halcyon

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:59 AM

Ok, I am far from a new user. Couldn't be further, if I think about it, unless I had bought both Founders and Phoenix (Been around for both, but couldn't afford either). However, I recently picked up a student - one of my best friends IRL played a few games on my account in early Open Beta, and recently got a new computer and made his account.

Right now, he's sworn not to buy his first mech until he's completed Cadet Bonus, and with the new Group Queue, the two of us get smashed apart, no matter whether I'm using one of my Elite Clan mechs or mastered IS ones.

So far, he's found that the trial Orion and Shadow Hawk are the ones that he enjoys the most, because he's enjoying the pinpoint of ballistics and PPCs. This is a surprise to me - in almost every game the two of us play together, he's normally the support player, and I'm normally the fighter, but he's found LRMs aren't his fancy, unlike when he first started playing.

Anyway, I'm testing the waters here, but what can people recommend in the way of mechs that fit the playstyle of the Shadow Hawk or Orion? I don't exactly own either of them currently, although the Thunderbolt is close enough to the Orion in some respects that I have a decent idea.

I've got other novices hovering around, but I haven't had a chance to work with them recently.

#2 TheCaptainJZ

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:26 AM

This is a great resource for comparing capabilities of mechs at least:
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/
To answer your question, I'd look at Jagermechs and Cataphracts.

#3 Tarriss Halcyon

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:35 AM

Oh, I'm aware of Smurfy. Once my student has completed cadet bonus, the two of us will probably pour over it to try to come up with a build he likes. What it tells me, though, is numbers, and numeric capability does not equal power. I pilot Dragons, and I've been using a build similar to the Trial Dragon since before it won that competition and became a trial mech. Numerically, Dragon is underpowered, and the Trial Dragon is worse than most others - mine only has one ER Large Laser with the Gauss Rifle, and a Medium Laser to keep lights away, so I'm even further under-gunned. And yet it is a capable mech in it's own right. Numbers don't always reflect a mech's capabilities.

On top of that, only a person who has piloted and worked with a mech knows what the hitboxes are like, whether or not to bother with certain weapon systems on it, and so on. Smurfy is fine for setting up builds, but I wouldn't call it a tool for comparing mechs, otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread.

Annoyingly, in the way of heavy mechs I own both of the clan ones, Dragons and Thunderbolts, while in mediums I have Hunchback, Centurion and both clan mechs. But, I've got a couple of spare mechbays, so if the consensus is to try him with one of those, I'll buy the variant people suggest, and the two of us will smash out a build which I can try out to see if it works at a basic level./

Edited by Tarriss Halcyon, 29 July 2014 - 01:35 AM.


#4 IraqiWalker

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:35 AM

View PostTarriss Halcyon, on 29 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

OP


Orions are a good chassis, even for starters. The Cataphract line usually outguns them in terms of ballistic/energy mixes.

However, I would never let the Orion go, it's a great brawler and tanker. The mech has assault level firepower, with the speed of a heavy, and the armor of a light assault mech.

STD 300 is a great engine to pick up. As it will fit mechs in all weight classes rather well. Along with an XL 300. Those two are the most used engines out there.

For medium mechs, the shadowhawk is a good starter as well. I personally recommend Hunchbacks for new players, but if he likes the SHD line up, and enjoys the use of JJs, he should go for Shawks immediately.

My Orion starter was the ON1-K. It's the hottest of them since it has 4 energy hardpoints, which also means it's more challenging, but I like it.

ON1-K Clan buster

That's the build I use on it. It melts most things it runs int, especially clan mechs with their big CTs, and cockpits.

Since he enjoys PPCs, I would go for a 2PPC AC20 build on the K. You can run it with most other variants as well.


EDIT: I will also lend my help in designing builds. I've spent almost as much time in smurfy as I have in the game, if not more.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 July 2014 - 01:36 AM.


#5 Modo44

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:39 AM

The Shadowhawk is a great starting mech. The 2D2 and 2D variants are especially versatile, and that is withing the already strong 55 ton bracket. The 5M is also decent, and it comes with the XL275 and cheap upgrades (considerably cheaper than buying Endo/DHS/XL separately).

#6 Steinar Bergstol

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:57 AM

Personally I love the Thunderbolt. It's a solid mech with the ability to engage at any range (fire the LRMs while you close, then switch to the lasers and SRMs once you get in range. Just gotta watch that heat as it's got more weapons than the sinks can handle (in that particular regard I find it similar to the stock Stalker, which also requires some trigger discipline). The 5SE variant also has jumpjets if your friend likes mechs with that capability.

I've also found I enjoy both the Griffin and the Wolverine quite a lot, both 55 tonners like the Shadow Hawk. The Griffin has an excellent torso twist range, BTW. In fact, lately I've been running a WVR-6K with an LRM-10 (for early softening up work), TAG (in the head slot) and 4 Medium Pulse Lasers in the right arm, and it's actually served me quite a bit better than I would have expected. Of course, what works for one person may not work for another. A lot of it comes down to your natural playstyle inclination.

#7 The Basilisk

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:08 AM

While I mostly aggree with what the other guys said I smell some misunderstanding in the roles you and your student want to take.

1st: PPFLD == firesupport /= DPS
Easy formula but far from obvious to many ppl. A Mech with PPCs and large ACs or Gauss won't do much constant dmg and shouldn't draw much attention until its to late for the enemy.
So if your student is fine with supporting he will be fine with firesupport Mechs.
( Cataphract with dual Gauss and a PPC, Orion with dual PPC and a Gauss, etc)

2nd: Beeing the loud aggroing frontline Mech doesn't mean you don't do much except soaking dmg and dieing. DPS means you are a constant threat to your enemys. A BNC-3E ( just an example ) with dual ER large Laser and tripple AC5 can chainfire untill its ammo runns out and an enemy focused by such a monster WILL cry for help. Not doing high dmg spikes doesn't mean you are no threat.

Edit: Advertising a S-Hawk as newcomer friendly Mech is highly arguable.
The onesided nature and the poor field of view of the S-Hawk in addition to its ponderous movement moddel makes it a difficult to level mech since the appearance of the Clanmechs and the jumpjet nerf.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 July 2014 - 02:12 AM.


#8 dragnier1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:17 AM

I think it would be good to know what his preferred/ideal style of play is. If he doesn't yet have one, then something with decent speed (70ish after speed tweak) with decent armour should be ok. Something like catafracts or orions (if he changes his mind on lrms we could include catapult :)) should be ok. The price of upgrading orions and shadow hawks should be the same, orions can save on engines (i use std on mine).

If he decides on the shadow hawk instead, ask him to get the 5m first. It comes with an XL engine and costs less to upgrade.

#9 TheCaptainJZ

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:26 AM

I really think you might like the jagermechs. The arm mounts are high up so you don't have to expose your whole body when firing over cover. It turns sluggishly until you get the unlocks though. That was my main complaint when I first started leveling them. You can run either std or XL engines in them. XLs allow you more weapons, but at the risk of easier to die. But really, I think it's an even risk that's up to the pilot. Other chassis are more clear cut with the advantage or disadvantage. What do you think of something like this? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7027e98f015b10d

I made it to resemble the trial shawk.

Oh, and for locations of weapon mounts (which as you pointed out, smurphy cannot help with) go to your mechlab, change the filter at the top to purchasable and scroll through the previews and rotating the models. It still doesn't tell you everything, but you get a more visual idea of how the mech will work.

Also, I keep adding to this, but both the jagers and phracts can do well with guass rifles. You should be seeing that a lot out around now actually.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 29 July 2014 - 02:23 AM.


#10 Levon K

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:57 AM

View PostTarriss Halcyon, on 29 July 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

I pilot Dragons, and I've been using a build similar to the Trial Dragon since before it won that competition and became a trial mech. Numerically, Dragon is underpowered, and the Trial Dragon is worse than most others - mine only has one ER Large Laser with the Gauss Rifle, and a Medium Laser to keep lights away, so I'm even further under-gunned. And yet it is a capable mech in it's own right. Numbers don't always reflect a mech's capabilities.


Well done. Nice to see someone not h*mping the meta. The dragon was supposed to be my favourite, but it got seriously gimped when translated from tabletop to MWO. Sad story.

#11 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:02 AM

While i can't say which mech to go (probably the shadowhawk) i could recommend one thing.

Since your friend used his cadet bonus also to test out different chassis.
I'd recommend the following.

Reroll for an new account.
Grab the 24 HRS of free premium time for new accounts.
Play all 25 cadet matches with the pest performing trailmech (i'd say missleboat for assist, assist = c-bills)
Only play pug, and no conquest.

that's pretty much the difference between 7-9M C-bills. and 12-15M C-bills.

#12 Denolven

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:53 AM

View PostThe Basilisk, on 29 July 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

While I mostly aggree with what the other guys said I smell some misunderstanding in the roles you and your student want to take.

1st: PPFLD == firesupport /= DPS
Easy formula but far from obvious to many ppl. A Mech with PPCs and large ACs or Gauss won't do much constant dmg and shouldn't draw much attention until its to late for the enemy.

Actually, if you compare the weapon statistics, you'll notice that the highest dps AC is the AC20, followed by AC10. Same for the other weapon systems - highest alpha and highest dps always comes together.

No idea what PGI is doing, but they are clearly not using dps for balancing purposes anywhere. All they touch is damage, range and heat, then adjusting dps to match the alpha (in relation to the other weapons).

So actually, PPFLD does equal DPS. I was stunned when I saw that the first time.

Edited by Denolven, 29 July 2014 - 05:00 AM.


#13 Nightmare1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

Shadowhawk makes a good sniper or brawler. I ran one with ACs and found it to be a great skirmisher/sniper, putting up large damage and kill counts. I have two others that run SRMs en mass and make fantastic brawlers up close. It's a good chassis that gives you the ability to go in a lot of different directions.

I've never owned Orions, and don't like the Trial one. Not enough punching power for my taste.

Here are two of my Shadowhawks though; let me know if you have any questions about the builds:

Posted Image

Twitch Showcases:
http://www.twitch.tv...arejk/c/4090080
http://www.twitch.tv...arejk/c/4059193


Posted Image


Twitch Showcases:
http://www.twitch.tv...arejk/c/4120326
http://www.twitch.tv...arejk/c/4090134

I don't have a screenshot for my recently rebuilt Shadowhawk (I own three). I'll try to get it posted up for you at some point in the next couple of days.

#14 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:14 AM

Most mechs can be made with the weaponry-type he prefers. Some of his decisions could be what weight class, speed and weapon placement (arms/torso, both left/right sides, etc). There are simply many options each chassis. Also have him look at the other versions of a particular mech that will allow him to alter his playstyle some, as well as make it more enjoyable to play while mastering that chassis.

And on the trials/etc, have him use the testing grounds. And while he is visiting, since it sounds like you have several mechs, have him run some of your mechs on the testing grounds.

And whatever he does going forward, he should never sell a mech.

#15 Denolven

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:27 AM

View PostTarriss Halcyon, on 29 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

what can people recommend in the way of mechs that fit the playstyle of the Shadow Hawk or Orion?

Playstyle is not the word you are looking for. A player has a playstyle. Mechs just have different preferences for different roles.
Try to find out what role he prefers, then have a look at the list in this thread: Which Mech you should buy.

If it's just about high alpha weaponry, then he can go with pretty much any mech, because that's a weapon trait, not a mech trait. even lights can use large weaponry (except Locust and Commando, which are totally screwed by the 10-heatsink-rule).

Edited by Denolven, 29 July 2014 - 05:31 AM.


#16 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:28 AM

Get your student Cataphracts. If he likes being a fighter, throw him into a CTF-1X, STD 280, 5xML 1xAC20. He'll have great heat, decent speed, excellent survivability and a helluva punch.

If he wants pinpoint dakka fire suppression, have him also get a CTF 4X with an XL 255, 4xAC5.

If he wants to play around with a slightly more mixed build like a Shadowhawk, get him a 2X...or...if he wants to up his C-Bills as he goes, make his third 'Phract the Muromets. You can't go wrong with that, no matter HOW you kit it out.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:29 AM

View PostTarriss Halcyon, on 29 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

So far, he's found that the trial Orion and Shadow Hawk are the ones that he enjoys the most, because he's enjoying the pinpoint of ballistics and PPCs. This is a surprise to me - in almost every game the two of us play together, he's normally the support player, and I'm normally the fighter, but he's found LRMs aren't his fancy, unlike when he first started playing.


I can summarize why in three words: "Group play." "ECM."

View PostTarriss Halcyon, on 29 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

Anyway, I'm testing the waters here, but what can people recommend in the way of mechs that fit the playstyle of the Shadow Hawk or Orion? I don't exactly own either of them currently, although the Thunderbolt is close enough to the Orion in some respects that I have a decent idea.


Hunchback (Shadowhawk without jump but FAR superior torso range and half the physical size), Shadowhawk, Wolverine, Blackjack.

Orion, Atlas, Victor, Battlemaster, Banshee, Cataphract.

Edited by Koniving, 29 July 2014 - 05:31 AM.


#18 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:36 AM

Yeah. I'd recommend the Blackjack for short range (1x AC20, 3xML and JJ OR 8xML, no JJ and a huge engine) over the Hunchback...just because it's weapons aren't in as obvious a place. On a hunchie, the hunch is life (BUT IF THE NEW MECH QUIRKS INCLUDE DAMAGE REDUCTION TO THE HUMP I MAY NEED TO TAKE THEM BACK OUT!). Sorry...got a little excited there.

The Victor CAN play like a fat Shadowhawk (it definitely USED to), and you can't go wrong with a brawling Cataphract or Atlas. The Cataphract and Banshee also do insane amounts of dakka REALLY well.





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