42 replies to this topic

[Ambuscade]

First and foremost, while the weapon modules as of right now are fairly lackluster, I think the concept has a huge amount of potential. With that idea in mind, I decided to look toward the future and brainstorm some module ideas for my favorite underdog weapon: the flamer.

- Note: I understand that the immediate response to this thread will likely be, "Just buff the flamer." In all honesty, I can't argue with that. I think the flamer should be buffed. On the other hand, I think weapon modules offer unique ways to specialize the weapon and address a few key issues with a little creativity. Without further adieu, here are my ideas:

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Heat Damage Module (Tiered)
This module grants an increase in the heat based damage the weapon inflicts on target mech. As a drawback, the amount of raw damage the flamer deals decreases.

Ultimate goal: The flamer deals substantially more heat based damage at the cost of miniscule physical damage. Thus allowing focus on the incendiary characteristic.
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Damage Module (Tiered)
This module grants an increase in the raw damage the weapon inflicts on target mech. As a drawback, the amount of heat based damage the flamer deals decreases.

Ultimate goal: The flamer deals substantially more physical damage at the cost of almost no heat based damage. This allows for the pilot to focus more on damage then debilitating the target with heat.
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Heat Cap Module (Tiered)
This module grants an increase in the heat cap to which an enemy mech's heat can be raised using flamers. As a drawback, the module would be more costly then typical modules.

Ultimate goal: A mech specializing in incendiary combat, having the unique ability to greatly debilitate an enemy mech. The fifth tier might allow the heat cap to be raised to 95% or dare I say 100%. Only through heavy specialization will a mech be allowed to shutdown a mech (assuming 100% is allowed) and also requires significant investment in weapon module slots, GXP, and C-bills.
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Conclusion
This thread aims to increase the power and uniqueness of the flamer through the use of weapon modules. Though an outright buff would be preferred, having the options to specialize the flamer in a manner of our choosing would also be beneficial. Furthermore, do not simply dismiss the ideas here simply because of the Heat Cap module suggestion. I encourage my fellow mechwarrirors to discuss and suggest other ideas for the flamer.

I implore everyone to remain constructive and keep off-topic comments to a minimum.
Ambuscade

[Prezimonto]

I'll add one.

Chemical Fire!

Allows flamers to equip ammo canisters of liquid flame instead of draw energy. These chemical flamers stick to mechs and deal heat (but not damage) over time. The more on a mech, the hotter it will run. These weapons can be fired with constant linear heat addition, instead of exponential heat addition.... until the ammo runs out.

Downside: chemical flame ammo has 3hp and a 100% change to explode. Chemical flamers run about as hot as a medium laser, so they generate heat quickly.

I'll add, if flamers could be hit-and run use, I'd use them. These could also just be added to the game as a weapon... I believe the firestarter's used these sometimes already.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

The flamer's so useless in every regard, it doesn't need reductions in capability at all
I usually see ONE flamer-equipped mech a week at most

[FupDup]

OuttaAmmo NoWai, on 30 July 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

The flamer's so useless in every regard, it doesn't need reductions in capability at all
I usually see ONE flamer-equipped mech a week at most

And the few mechs that do use Flamers are usually Badders...because they get one permanently welded to their CT.

[Ambuscade]

Nice ideas Prezimonto, though I believe each would be better implemented as equipment then modules. Chemical Fire I believe is akin to Inferno munitions, which when loaded onto a mech has a high chance of completely destroying said mech if the munitions ignite inside. Think instant shutdown followed by engine destruction/pilot roasted. A good high risk/high reward weapon that could be implemented as "Inferno Flamers."

As for hit and run flamers, I think hot shot flamers are what you have in mind. A few fellow mechwarriors I believe have mentioned it as a single burst shot flamer, dealing both heat and physical damage all in one go. This could also be added I think. The standard flamer would be better at dealing exponential heat damage and blinding the target. The hotshot would be better at upfront effects and hit and run style combat. Both would have their merits and I think own weapon modules as well.

All in all, nice post
Ambuscade

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

FupDup, on 30 July 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

And the few mechs that do use Flamers are usually Badders...because they get one permanently welded to their CT.

It's funny you mention that, I see Adders all the time and they never even fire that hood-ornament blowtorch

[Agent of Change]

Not to jump on the band wagon here but currently the best way to "enhance" flamers is to unequip them, sell them and count your cash. Flamers are at best good for microscopically enhancing your MC balance.

In the spirit of the actual conversation however. I'm not sure this discusssion is really worth having until and unless base line flamers are worth equipping. They either need to be able to shut down enemy mechs or do more damage, either/or, this twilight they are stuck it make them jokes and troll bait and not much else besides. We shouldn't want or need to rely on modules to make a weapons system baseline useful.

Edited by Agent of Change, 30 July 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Ambuscade, on 30 July 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Nice ideas Prezimonto, though I believe each would be better implemented as equipment then modules. Chemical Fire I believe is akin to Inferno munitions, which when loaded onto a mech has a high chance of completely destroying said mech if the munitions ignite inside. Think instant shutdown followed by engine destruction/pilot roasted. A good high risk/high reward weapon that could be implemented as "Inferno Flamers."

As for hit and run flamers, I think hot shot flamers are what you have in mind. A few fellow mechwarriors I believe have mentioned it as a single burst shot flamer, dealing both heat and physical damage all in one go. This could also be added I think. The standard flamer would be better at dealing exponential heat damage and blinding the target. The hotshot would be better at upfront effects and hit and run style combat. Both would have their merits and I think own weapon modules as well.

All in all, nice post
Ambuscade

Thanks! I didn't know hotshot flamers were a thing. I'd be down with those as well. The hit-and-run I was talking about was the chemical flamers, supposing the chemical was napalm or similar, sprayed, it sticks and continues to burn and heat a mech for a while after it's fired.

I could totally see a firestarter with 8 of them, round a bend, fire for a second or two, run away... mech heats up and can't shoot without shutting down for a while.

[verybad]

How avbout a module that makes the flamer shoot pink and light blue stars and ponies that make a "pleasnat" sound as they twinkle off the target?

[Calamus]

I like these ideas, but the flamer needs work on its own first.

So +1 for this, after the base flamer gets working right.

[terrycloth]

So flamers can't shut down a mech? What's the point, then? I mean, why else would you even mount them?

I tried running flamers for a while and I mostly only managed to shut down myself. If they don't even work like they're described (adding three times the heat to the target as to your own mech) then I guess I know why.

[Ambuscade]

Yikes, so many unconstructive posts. Alas, to be expected I suppose.

Flamers are a decent weapon system, they just have a few issues holding them back.

1. A heat system that only has two real consequences: less firing at high heat levels and shutdown.
2. The closed beta flamers as I recall were extremely effective and could easily shutdown and destroy mechs (before 90% heat cap).

The result? PGI doesn't want to make the flamer effective at raising the heat levels of enemy mechs. There is a fear of stunlocking mechs (continuously shutdown until death or the attacker breaks the lock). Whether this fear is truly justified I don't know. I think they should be able to shutdown mechs, but only for a few so not everyone mounts and exploits the weapon. Thus the Heat Cap module in the original post allowing specialization down that avenue.

Ambuscade

[Ambuscade]

Terrycloth, a flamer tip. The secret of flamers is that the heat they produce on your mech is based on an exponential curve. The longer you hold the trigger, the higher the heat output gets (thus why you heat up fast). By chain firing a pair of flamers, the curve never has time to build. This is because you are constantly alternating between flamers. Thus, if you wish to pursue flamer builds, mount them in pairs. The result is surprisingly negligible heat gain when chain fired.

Ambuscade

[Sephlock]

Ambuscade, on 30 July 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

The result is surprisingly negligible heat gain when chain fired.

Also, surprisingly negligible heat gain for your target.

[Agent of Change]

Sephlock, on 30 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Also, surprisingly negligible heat gain for your target.

Which is the problem, the heat scale for your mech is the same as you inflict which is stupid and renders the flamer a useless weapon.

[Ambuscade]

Good point Sephlock, but at least you still get the blinding effect
Therefore, assuming you can stay on target, the heat damage you are really doing should be equivalent to your flamer pairs. For instance I run a firestarter "CinderSmoke" that runs two pairs of flamers (4 flamers total). I am only hitting with two flamers at any given time (assuming I am chain firing both pairs).

Ambuscade

[Prezimonto]

Flamer's biggest issue is that they're looked upon as a tool of light mechs, because they're a small weapon system.

Their range and mechanic (short and must keep them trained on target for long periods) means they're really knife fight brawling weapons. Except that any mech that does well in that environment is better off with bigger weapons, and has the space to fit them.

Small mechs need a hit-and-run flamer solution before they're viable.

Edited by Prezimonto, 30 July 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Sephlock]

Ambuscade, on 30 July 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Good point Sephlock, but at least you still get the blinding effect
Therefore, assuming you can stay on target, the heat damage you are really doing should be equivalent to your flamer pairs. For instance I run a firestarter "CinderSmoke" that runs two pairs of flamers (4 flamers total). I am only hitting with two flamers at any given time (assuming I am chain firing both pairs).

Ambuscade

Did the Goons surround Paul and bake him to death at some point, or what ?

[Ambuscade]

The flamer should both be an incendiary specialist's weapon and and a brawling tool/weapon. As many of you have stated, the flamer needs a buff, which I admit to in my original post twice. A buff should focus on both physical and heat based damage improvements. Weapon modules then can be applied for specialization.

Ambuscade

[Cyborne Elemental]

1 thing that would make flamers worth it.

When a target mech has been flamed, it disables the Quick start upgrade for a set # of seconds.

So if you do manage to shut a guy down, he doesn't just bounce back up to blast you in the face.