49 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

CocoaJin, on 31 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Fixing is fine, worthless is subjective and better then nothing since anything and everything added from the IP to the game is conveniently wrapped up into this wonderful thing call development.

The devs who add aren't necessarily the devs that fix, so let the former add and grow the game world. We will forever find something for the fixers to fix...but that doesn't justify up rooting the IP because you are jaded with the process. Don't spite your head because of your cockpit glass.

With all that said, fixing and content choices is still a moot point with respect to subject of the thread...and does not justify the idea of perverting the IP.

No, worthless is really easy.

Here, some worthless items.

FF armor, locusts, dragons, quickdraws, small lasers, LBX, flamers, weapon modules, 360 targeting, single heatsinks, all 50 tonners, atlas K.

I don't even have to think hard.

[CocoaJin]

Vassago Rain, on 31 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

No, worthless is really easy.

Here, some worthless items.

FF armor, locusts, dragons, quickdraws, small lasers, LBX, flamers, weapon modules, 360 targeting, single heatsinks, all 50 tonners, atlas K.

I don't even have to think hard.

Meh, the relationships of various units and equipment ebb and flow. There was a time when the Dragon was far from worthless, single heat sinks are a piece of equipment that was expected to fall into obsolescence as part of the time line. Can't everything be today's Timberwolf. Much of what you call worthless is just the natural variety within the spectrum of combat assets. Some of us make good use of the less vanilla equipment, over the flavor of the month builds, or even the tried and true work horses...we find our niche and do just well in them so the battlefield isn't populated by just red and blue painted versions of your or somebody else's prime builds.

No, these aren't worthless, may be under used, but not worthless. What they are, from a purely objective stand point, is variety and opportunity for creative minds to utilize current and/or future content to breathe life into your so called worthless units so one day you can get blind side by something you've never seen or have it used in away you hardly ever imagined. And that's a good thing, that way you can still feel excited and brand new about the game. So frankly, these so called worthless units and those of us who you use them are going you a favor....you just don't know it yet.

Edited by CocoaJin, 31 July 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[Dracol]

Roadkill, on 31 July 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

(And yes, I'm aware that reducing either of those would still result in valid stock builds, but in the case of weight reductions they'd be underweight. So still not going to happen.)

Since reducing crits would still result in valid stock builds, my initial suggestion in theory would still be plausible.

I specifically avoided any suggestions that touched upon weight.

Allowing a mech equipped with Ferro to have the option to add more armor over the max armor for the tonnage would also work in theory in regards to the stock issue. Any stock mech would not be affected. After purchase a pilot could free up tonnage to add more armor, there by increasing the armor value beyond the max allowed for non-Ferro equipped mechs.

CocoaJin, on 31 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

<snip>

Understood. I'll put you down as a "no, keep TT crit values"

Edited by Dracol, 31 July 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Dracol, on 31 July 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Understood. I'll put you down as a "no, keep TT crit values"

Lol, no disrespect to you at all. I just believe we should just embrace things for what they are intended to be...that way we can avoid that slippery slope. Now, where the devs can and have taken creative liberties, I'm all for shuffling numbers and stuff around in order to improve gameplay, provided it doesn't go in the face of the spirit and intent of the IP.

Edited by CocoaJin, 31 July 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

CocoaJin, on 31 July 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Lol, no disrespect to you at all. I just believe we should just embrace things for what they are intended to be...that way we can avoid that slippery slope. Now, sphere the devs can and have taken creative liberties, I'm all for shuffling numbers and stuff around in order to improve gameplay, provided it doesn't go in the face of the spirit and intent of the IP.

So you're saying that FF armor was intended to be worthless?

Because it wasn't. It's designed for a completely different system, one where you must often balance costs to availability, to tech-level, to battle value.

FF, while bad, is still almost viable in CBT because endo is so expensive. The way FF and endo interact in MWO is like if terminators in dawn of war would simply vaporize under massed small-arms fire, like in tabletop, or the bloodthirster and avatar would be at a hilarious disadvantage if you bring a single grey knight, risking instant death. In tabletop, this is fine, because a grandmaster is 250~ points, but the big demons aren't that far above, and they all cost HQ slots.

You can't just port systems between platforms. You have to adjust them for the new format.

[CocoaJin]

Vassago Rain, on 31 July 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

So you're saying that FF armor was intended to be worthless?

Because it wasn't. It's designed for a completely different system, one where you must often balance costs to availability, to tech-level, to battle value.

FF, while bad, is still almost viable in CBT because endo is so expensive. The way FF and endo interact in MWO is like if terminators in dawn of war would simply vaporize under massed small-arms fire, like in tabletop, or the bloodthirster and avatar would be at a hilarious disadvantage if you bring a single grey knight, risking instant death. In tabletop, this is fine, because a grandmaster is 250~ points, but the big demons aren't that far above, and they all cost HQ slots.

You can't just port systems between platforms. You have to adjust them for the new format.

Im saying FF is what it is and that came with a cost and trade-off...what ever it is, so be it...let it be. I'm not making any type of judgement about it or its relative worth. I'm just accepting it for what is and I'll use it as best I can for what it is...not try to make it into thing else.

Now if there are variants of FF that aren't being utilized yet in development, then tough t!tties for now. With the dev resources at present, it's best to keep equipment vanilla for the first dev pass and different variants can come along later, perhaps in the form of modules. The current form of FF as a vanilla FF, it's just fine.

When it comes to porting, I'd agree that is true to certain extent, but in this case, there is no difficulty in porting over values and core mechanics, just how they play out in real time...for instance, adapting movement, rate of fire and heat for real time. The thing that doesn't change in the mechanics is the relationships and interactions of various aspects of the original mechanics.

No need to change the relationship and interaction of FF use relative to cost, weight and slots, the porting of these sub-systems was never broken in translation.

Edited by CocoaJin, 31 July 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 31 July 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

FF needs to be a flat damage reduction, but this will never happen.

And thank goodness. there are armors in the wings that reduce damage already.

[CocoaJin]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 July 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

And thank goodness. there are armors in the wings that reduce damage already.

So it's not worthwhile to break FF now(in spite of it's current validity), only to unbreak it later if and when new armors come online? But this will the uberfication of my mech builds in check.

[Vassago Rain]

You two are the guardians who ensure MWO will never progress past a mediocre shooter full of legacy mechanics,

[CocoaJin]

Vassago Rain, on 31 July 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

You two are the guardians who ensure MWO will never progress past a mediocre shooter full of legacy mechanics,

I ACCEPT!!