78 replies to this topic

[Kaylos Thex]

The weapon balance of MWO has gotten, imho, pretty well balanced over the past year.

Now we technically have gotten more to the mix in the clans.
Burst firing autocannons, "short" range capable LRM's, and ER everything else.

But I find myself considering the options to expand the options in the future.

Things like the light AC5.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_AC/5

A 5 ton, 2 slot small autocannon. It would be a brawler mech go to weapon of choice. The thing is I can see a 6 ballistic Jeagermech with these being more deadly than a AC40 load.

The snub nose PPC
http://www.sarna.net.../Snub-Nosed_PPC

Much like the light autocannon, its a heavy-ish weapon geared more for the brawler boaters or for light mechs.

Thunderbolt missile launchers.
http://www.sarna.net...derbolt_Missile

These are the types of missiles we use today on earth. Things like the Hellfire, Maverick, and Exocet.
A single missile instead of a swarm.
It would add to the pin point damage that we are trying to downplay in MWO. But it would be offset by a almost total uselessness when pitted against a mech with AMS. (which is why I think in Battletech lore the military went to "swarm" missiles in the first place.)

What are your opinions of future weapons for MWO?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

The problem with new weapon systems is that for most of them we're looking forwards ten to twenty years on the timeline. Things like the Thunderbolt for use outside of Solaris (whose weapons are not considered battlefield-usable) are more than twenty years of timeline advancement off by current plan. It's unfortunately possible that MWO won't still be going at that point, though it's possible it will (how old is WoW, exactly?). It doesn't help any that many of the advanced systems are considered 'experimental tech' and are largely either unbalanced in one way or another (HAG), usable only for Solaris arena matches (Claws, shields, the original Thunderbolt), or were not subject to decent testing before being released into the tabletop game (frequently this as well as one of the first two)- leaving them unusable for tournament play and thus unlikely to see appearances in MWO.

There are some things we can expect to see relatively soon in new weapons, though- within the next 7-10 years on the Battletech timeline.

Inner Sphere weapon sizes- by 3060, the Inner Sphere will have worked out alternate weapon sizes, so all four varieties of Ultra and LB-X autocannon are available, as well as the other sizes of SRM Streak racks and ER lasers.

Inner Sphere weapons- by 3060, the Inner Sphere has done some interesting alternative-catching-up, producing new weapons systems that help to bridge the gap in technological advancement. I'm eager to see these weapons when they appear because the Clans never develop equivalent weaponry. Anything that promotes true divergence is good in my book.

• MRMs- Unguided large-batch missiles with a range between the other two missile types. I'm very curious how these will be handled, as by default the in-universe SRMs are guided, unlike the SRMs we're using in MWO.
  
• Light Gauss Rifle- the undisputed king of range, the Light Gauss weighs less and occupies less space than a standard Gauss Rifle, and while it does less damage, it shoots farther than even an LB2-X while retaining full firing power. These showing up should bring some interesting sniper-interplay effects between the Inner Sphere and the Clans.

I'll admit I'm more eager for MRMs than the LGR, mostly because I'm basically incompatible with the MWO incarnation gauss rifle.

Other than that, until 3060 the majority of the added equipment will be either ammunition types (such as Thunder and Swarm munitions for LRMs or Inferno missiles for SRMS) or non-weapon gear (C3 computers and the Inner Sphere Omnimech both become relatively common by 3058).

I'd have to say I'm most eager for certain 'mechs- of the Inner Sphere omnis, I'm partial to the Firestarter, Blackjack, Owens (Jenner-based), Men Shen (Raven-based) and Hauptmann (wholly new design), and the list of non-omnis I'm looking forwards to is too large to consider- though it does include the Bandersnatch, Wraith, Penetrator, Cerberus, Dragon Fire, Grand Crusader, Nightstar, Initiate, and most of all the Thug and Gunslinger. Assuming PGI eventually decides on a way to actually include quad 'mechs, the Goliath, Barghest and Scirocco are all things I'd love to get ahold of. Heck, many of the 3060 'mechs on my preferred shortlist use newer weapons- mostly UAC/10s.

As weapons go, I'm more interested right now in seeing alternative munitions (and the mechanic to enable ammo switching) come into play than entire new weapons systems.

[SethAbercromby]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 05 August 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Inner Sphere weapons- by 3060, the Inner Sphere has done some interesting alternative-catching-up, producing new weapons systems that help to bridge the gap in technological advancement. I'm eager to see these weapons when they appear because the Clans never develop equivalent weaponry. Anything that promotes true divergence is good in my book.

Let me Introduce you to the Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle, introduced in 3069, coming in three flavors:
HAG 20:
4 Heat, 20 Damage (20 projectiles with 1 damage each), 10 tons, 6 crits, 480m Medium Range, 720m Long Range (which is huge in TT scale)
HAG 30:
6 Heat, 30 Damage, 13 tons, 8 crits
HAG 40:
8 Heat, 40 Damage, 16 tons, 10 crits

These babys are the undisputed kings of damage. While they stream projectiles like the ACs, they generate obscene amounts of damage that could kill a 'Mech with the first volley if it hits perfectly. They also avoid the drawback of the IS Heavy Gauss Rifle which has cosiderable projectile dropoff, requires ammo storages to consume extra critspace and can only be mounted on torso mounts due to its massive recoil and coud still cause a 'Mech to fall on its back. The Improved version is considered experimental for quite some time (until 3081 for that matter), but solves the dropoff problem by creating the single heaviest weapon, weighting an impressive 20 tons, but also delivering lethal 22 points of damage in a single projectile.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

SethAbercromby, on 05 August 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Things I already knew.

Not only is this not news to me, it's also not relevant to the quote....? I said 'by 3060'. The Heavy Gauss is not in before 3060 and while the fluff compares the HAG to the Heavy Gauss, it's not an equivalent either. The 'by 3060' stuff is the Light Gauss and the MRMs, neither of which the HAG is an equivalent for.

Additional Note: Also, the HAG is experimental-tech level and not admissable to standard or tournament play due to being one of the pieces of equipment I referred to earlier in my previous post- see the first paragraph.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 05 August 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 05 August 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Not only is this not news to me, it's also not relevant to the quote....? I said 'by 3060'. The Heavy Gauss is not in before 3060 and while the fluff compares the HAG to the Heavy Gauss, it's not an equivalent either. The 'by 3060' stuff is the Light Gauss and the MRMs, neither of which the HAG is an equivalent for.

Additional Note: Also, the HAG is experimental-tech level and not admissable to standard or tournament play due to being one of the pieces of equipment I referred to earlier in my previous post- see the first paragraph.

The HAG is not mentioned to be experimental Tech at all. Mind sharing that source? Also, I was responding to the statement of "never developing equivalent weaponry", which the HAG obviously disproves.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

SethAbercromby, on 05 August 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

The HAG is not mentioned to be experimental Tech at all. Mind sharing that source? Also, I was responding to the statement of "never developing equivalent weaponry", which the HAG obviously disproves.

If you want to claim the HAG disproves 'equivalent weaponry', you're going to have to present me an Inner Sphere weapon that it is actually equivalent to, because I can't find one. Then you're going to have to explain how that matches up with my claim that the Clans never developed equivalent weaponry to the MRM and Light Gauss.

I'll have to ask your forgiveness on the 'Experimental Tech Level', as I'm still adjusting to the Catalyst-era TT rules. You're right on that, it's just exceptionally rare and doesn't even get invented until 3068. By the rules format I'm used to thinking in, it's either Tech Level 3 or Experimental Tech, either label indicating that it's not only not suitable to basic play but so far out there that it's innately either imbalanced, rules-distorting, or (more commonly) both.

I seriously doubt it'll be appearing in-game, though- a 30 or 40-damage-per-shot weapon would be ludicrous given how nasty 15 and 20-per-shot weapons are already, and besides that and the production era it's a Hell's Horses/Diamond Shark/Coyote weapon only.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 05 August 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 05 August 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I seriously doubt it'll be appearing in-game, though- a 30 or 40-damage-per-shot weapon would be ludicrous given how nasty 15 and 20-per-shot weapons are already, and besides that and the production era it's a Hell's Horses/Diamond Shark/Coyote weapon only.

We already have burst ACs and the HAG would pretty much do that, just much much faster. Lore-friendly implemented, they would fire the same number of projectiles as their rating, each doing 1 damage. Due to their rate of fire, they would feel more like firing an ultra high DPS laser or MG, but would take forever to recycle to bring their DPS to reasonable levels.

Assuming we want the HAG 40 to have a DPS of about 3, we can take the number of damage divided by the targeted DPS and then subtract the time you think is reasonable for a burst to reach the required cycle time. In this case, I went for a 4 second stream which translates to one bullet every 0.1 second.

To put it into math:
40 / 3 - 4 = 9.33333333

Rounded to the closest interval of 0.25, we have a true cycle time of 9.25 seconds which translates into a DPS of about 3.02. Doesn't seem that OP any more, right?

We can also do the same calculations for the HPG 20 and 30. In this case I went for 2 and 3 second streams with DPS vlaues of 2.3 and 2.6 respectively.

20 / 2.3 - 2 = 6.7
6.75 second cycle time, 2.29 DPS

30 / 2.6 - 3 = 8.54
8.5 seconds ycle time, 2.61 DPS

We could even use that method for calculating reasonable cycle times and burst durations for both IS and Clan ACs.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Relatively sane, yes. What about the other points, though? You haven't actually given an argument counter to the statements I was making that you first quoted.

[SethAbercromby]

Okay, you got me there. The thing with these two weapons is that they are basically equalizers to the superior Clan Tech. The Clan Gauss is both lighter and takes up less space as the IS Gauss at identical performance. The Light Gauss reduces that difference to equal tonnage and one less critslot, but in return deals slightly more than half the damage, but doubles the ammo capacity to compensate for it. That makes it pretty much on par with the Clan Gass. Later the Heavy Gauss will allow IS to have improved performance of the Guass at severe drawbacks, while the HAG of the Clans completely leaves it in the dust in terms of usability.

MRMs are a nice addition, but Clans actually have developed a different system called ATM -Advanced Tactical Missile- which has 3 diffent types of warheads than can be changed at will:
-Standard Warheads, which perform like extended reach SRMs (TT SRMs with locking mechanics) but with a minimum range of 120m and have a max range of 450m. Each missile deals 2 damage.
-Extended reach warheads increase the range to 810m, but only deal 1 damage per missile.
-High Explosive warheads deal 3 damage and have no minimum range, but their reach is limited to 270m.

[Gralzeim]

Looking forward to Rotary Autocannon 2s and 5s (IS weapon).

[SethAbercromby]

Gralzeim, on 05 August 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

Looking forward to Rotary Autocannon 2s and 5s (IS weapon).

Clan gets them 7 years later, but they are considered Experimental Tech, so IS might be the only ones to get them. The Idea behind them is pretty neat, but depending on the jam chances (each extra tap has additional jam chance) those weapons could be jamming more often that you actually get to fire them.

[CyclonerM]

Arrow IV (Naga anyone?).

[IraqiWalker]

Kaylos Thex, on 05 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

It would add to the pin point damage that we are trying to downplay in MWO. But it would be offset by a almost total uselessness when pitted against a mech with AMS. (which is why I think in Battletech lore the military went to "swarm" missiles in the first place.)

What are your opinions of future weapons for MWO?

Thunderbolt PP FLD can be fixed by simply making it splash it's damage by a huge margin.

As for me. I'm looking forward to the entire line up of LBXs being available for IS, and for rotary cannons.


On the other hand. I've been dying, waiting for the Hammerhands to be introduced into the game.


EDIT: I also forgot the Thor's Hammers Gauss Rifles, and the Fafnir that carries them.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 05 August 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[Sug]

Kaylos Thex, on 05 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The snub nose PPC
http://www.sarna.net.../Snub-Nosed_PPC

Oh goody, a 6 ton PPC with a built in damage reduction over distance mechanic that only does full damage under 270m.

[SethAbercromby]

Sug, on 05 August 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Oh goody, a 6 ton PPC with a built in damage reduction over distance mechanic that only does full damage under 270m.

But your deadzone is reduced to 30m, which you will be extremely unlikely to pass under normal brawling conditions in MWO. However, it has no real heat benefit for its reduced range, which will make using them a bit... iffy.

[IraqiWalker]

SethAbercromby, on 05 August 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

But your deadzone is reduced to 30m, which you will be extremely unlikely to pass under normal brawling conditions in MWO. However, it has no real heat benefit for its reduced range, which will make using them a bit... iffy.

It has no dead zone actually. Minimum range is 0. However, I think PGI will give it 1 less heat than a standard PPC, which will make it fit a nice niche.

You take the snub nose for close range brawling, the regular for medium-to-long range fights, and the ERPPC for long-extreme range sniping.

[Sug]

It would basically be a ballistic large pulse laser.

[Kaylos Thex]

I have been giving the MRM system a bit of thought.

Per the lore these are basically ER-SRM's.

In practice, I can see these being, well, hard to aim.

In anything but point blank ranges, normal SRM's require quite a bit of skill to aim. And when they hit, the effects are somewhat random.

I always thought that MRM's should be aim point guided. Meaning that they track towards the gunsight like most shooters do with laser guided shoulder launched missiles.
It would make them different than SRM's, streaks, and the indirect firing LRM's.

[IraqiWalker]

Kaylos Thex, on 06 August 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I have been giving the MRM system a bit of thought.

Per the lore these are basically ER-SRM's.

In practice, I can see these being, well, hard to aim.

In anything but point blank ranges, normal SRM's require quite a bit of skill to aim. And when they hit, the effects are somewhat random.

I always thought that MRM's should be aim point guided. Meaning that they track towards the gunsight like most shooters do with laser guided shoulder launched missiles.
It would make them different than SRM's, streaks, and the indirect firing LRM's.

Problem is that SRMs actually should acquire locks like Streaks. The only difference between the two is that Streaks wouldn't fire without a 100% hit probability. SRMs actually can fire without lock or with lock, while streaks only fire with lock, the point of the system is ammo conservation.


MRMs should have limited guidance as well.



EDIT: That is also why these weapons would behave like streaks when fired at a mech that has been NARC'd

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 August 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Jacon Ceronia]

Heavy Gauss