31 replies to this topic

[AngryEggRoll]

Table top is 30 meter distance and 15 meter height gain for each jump jet
Something needs to be done, They should be JUMP jets.

Edited by AngryEggRoll, 08 August 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[Egomane]

6 meters height in tabletop, not 15!

And I believe in game balance over tabletop settings (where necessary!). We do not need flying mechs.

Edited by Egomane, 10 August 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Mechs do fly in BattleTech in the previous games and very quickly. Mainly in distance traveled.

JJ's in previous game = fun (mw:ll directional jets, best JJ's ever in a MW game hands down)
MWO jj's = not fun, not battletech

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Instead of a straight TT interpretation, I'd rather we see a fundamental mechanical change.

Currently, JJs do a steady burn over the entire flight path.

What should happen is JJs kick your mech in the pants, sending it into the air with a powerful burst of speed. This should use 1 JJ worth of fuel. Extra JJs would add extra fuel to your meter, allowing you boost your jump higher and farther after the initial boost, as well as feather to mitigate fall damage. More JJs would directly translate to more performance in that respect.

To accompany this change, the initial JJ boost would need to impose a sizeable Dyanamic Precision Reduction that would decay over time. To poptart, you'd actually need more JJs so you can stay in the air long enough after the initial boost that your DPR goes down sufficiently that you can land your shots where you need them (though so long as you are in the air you'd have some level of DPR).

[Ancient Demise]

Right, game balance over pure TT conversion but when they do not even seem capable of the former, let alone following simple physics...
And no one said anything about flying mechs. A true jump would be forward in a parabolic trajectory. What we seem to be stuck with is enough thrust to make you float in mid air but not push forwards? If anything, mechs fly more now.
We just want jump jets to improve maneuverability by launching you forward instead of making you hover and turn. Anything with enough thrust to lift you up that far and burn for that long can also push you forward at least as far. And no you should not be able to pop tart while doing that either.

Simply put: mechs in TT use jump jets as a navigational aid, not a targeting aid. We want something closer to that.

Edited by Ancient Demise, 11 August 2014 - 03:11 AM.

[Myke Pantera]

Not too happy with the current implementation either. If you want to use the JJ to get on top of a building or to the upper levels on caustic or basically on top of anything that is bigger than a shoe-box you need to run straight into it, then start jumping, otherwise you have like no upward movement at all.

But in all fairness the community demanded this with their constant whining about pop-tarting.

I really hope they'll ignore all this convergence whining, otherwise we'll have another perfectly fine system broken to the bone...

Edited by Myke Pantera, 11 August 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[AngryEggRoll]

The JJ change did not fix pop-tarting and the devs even admitted to it and said that was not what they where trying to do anyways. JJ's need to be implemented like MW:LL so that they shoot you rapidly into the air leaving you exposed in hang time to open shots of the enemy. The problem was previouslt that it would not jump you high enough so yopu where not exposed very long. Being exposed to enemy fire is the key to balancing the JJ's usefully.

[AngryEggRoll]

Edited by AngryEggRoll, 12 August 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[AngryEggRoll]

PGI please fix

[MechB Kotare]

I agree. JJ system was always broken one.

Instead of fixing it, you try to nerf so called meta "poptartism" while punishing weapons and builds only. You over nearf PPCs, then cERLL afterwards, but broken JJ mechanism still here.

Too much net-coding for ya? Changing numbers is way to easier to you isnt it?

Not even JJets, more like howerjets now.

[Egomane]

Please discuss the proposed change, not what PGI has done in the past.

[MechB Kotare]

Aye. Sorry. I still stand on my point though. Current mechanism = Broken hoverjetting
Any different doable mechanic-change-gaming remodel of JJs that offeres different view upon JJ place in game, is a way to go, imho it might actaully buff jumpsniping (with lasers)... considering how bad PPC are now.

Would also remove that broken annoying bunny hoping ability of Timberwolf and Victors...

Also Egomane, i dont think i adressed PGI directly. Whinny players who dont know how to adapt, will always suck and whine, its mainly their fault for forcing devs into rapid "overbalancing" And THEY will only go with the flow to make this game beautifull adventure for noobs playing this game for few months, and then move to next F2P title...

Edited by MechB Kotare, 20 August 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Grendel408]

I believe JJs need more thrust for the fuel expended currently. The TT v MWO mechanic for JJs is not balanced well at all. I understand you cannot always balance TT rules to an actual video game, but currently the working mechanics of JumpJets is flawed. I find it's good to have forward thrust, the more you move the more momentum you create using JJs... but currently they do not provide enough vertical thrust while maintaining more of a horizontal thrust.

[Strum Wealh]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 10 August 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Instead of a straight TT interpretation, I'd rather we see a fundamental mechanical change.

Currently, JJs do a steady burn over the entire flight path.

What should happen is JJs kick your mech in the pants, sending it into the air with a powerful burst of speed.

Indeed - Jump Jets should provide plenty of thrust, but should do so suddenly & violently, and at great heat cost.

TT Jump Jet heat essentially works out to 2 units of heat for Jump Jet spool-up plus 1 unit of heat per Jump MP expended beyond the third, regardless of the actual number of Jump Jets mounted.
"Jumping generates 1 heat point for every hex jumped, with a minimum cost of 3 heat points. Even if a 'Mech only jumps 1 hex, it builds up 3 heat points for that jump." - Total Warfare, pg. 53

As for the details of Jump Jet operation, they are described on pages 38 & 39 of TechManual:

• "Most notably, jump jets can only operate for short periods before requiring a cool-down period. They can't operate continuously, and certainly not long enough to carry a BattleMech into orbit."
  
• "Now, jump jets have a lot of similarities to the fusion rockets of aerospace fighters. They use a magnetically shielded reaction chamber to superheat some material, the reaction mass, and squirt it out a rocket nozzle. Like fighter engines, an electron beam, an electrical arc, is used to superheat the reaction mass."
  
• "However, jump jets do not add plasma vented from the fusion engine, unlike fighters. Aerospace fighters are interested in maximizing their engine efficiency because they have to carry all their reaction mass onboard, and thus want the exhaust as hot as possible. On the other hand, jump jets usually have an endless supply of reaction mass and don't need all the complexity of venting their fusion engine's plasma. These jets thus usually capture air as their reaction mass through a system of turbo-compressors."

Thus, usable changes to Jump Jets include instituting what is essentially an activation delay, adding "spool-up heat", and changing the thrust mechanic to be less "James Bond's jetpack" and more "Wan Hu's chair":

• At t = 0.00s: the MechWarrior (e.g. the player) slams the foot pedals to activate the JJs.
  
• From t = 0.00s to t ≈ 0.75s: whatever protective covers/vents/etc ate in place over the JJ intakes & exhaust ports slide/flip open.
  
  • The turbo-compressors mentioned in TechManual spool up, taking-in & compressing atmospheric gas (or pumping it in from an onboard tank, if operating in an atmosphereless environment) and transferring it to the reaction chamber. Simultaneously, the ignition systems and magnetic containment systems are charged with power from the Fusion Engine.
    
  • Once the environment within the reaction chamber has reached the appropriate state, the ignition system is activated and the reaction mass is quickly superheated.
• At t ≈ 0.75s: the now-superheated reaction mass becomes a plasma is then directed through the (magnetically-shielded) JJ exhaust port, producing a sudden, jarring (hence the "+3 to-hit modifier when making attacks" that comes with Jump Jet use in BattleTech) & short-lived burst of thrust.
  
• From t ≈ 0.75s to time-of-landing: continued active use of Jump Jets produces heat and allows for limited airborne maneuvering.

The best currently-extant video game comparison that I can think of is the "Over Boost" mechanic from the Armored Core games.


From a MWO gameplay perspective, the main effect of introducing a "spool-up the turbo-compressors" mechanic for Jump Jets is to raise the skill threshold for effective use of Jump Jets in combat - they could still be very easily used for navigation and traversing terrain, but "pirouetting through the enemy company with impunity" becomes a thing of the past (since Jump Jet activation would no longer be instantaneous, or particularly smooth) & the skill threshold for "poptarting" is increased substantially as a result of the jarring and violent nature of the jump (reflected in an MWO implementation by severe cockpit & reticle shake).

Thoughts?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Strum Wealh, on 20 August 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Indeed - Jump Jets should provide plenty of thrust, but should do so suddenly & violently, and at great heat cost.

TT Jump Jet heat essentially works out to 2 units of heat for Jump Jet spool-up plus 1 unit of heat per Jump MP expended beyond the third, regardless of the actual number of Jump Jets mounted.
"Jumping generates 1 heat point for every hex jumped, with a minimum cost of 3 heat points. Even if a 'Mech only jumps 1 hex, it builds up 3 heat points for that jump." - Total Warfare, pg. 53

As for the details of Jump Jet operation, they are described on pages 38 & 39 of TechManual:

• "Most notably, jump jets can only operate for short periods before requiring a cool-down period. They can't operate continuously, and certainly not long enough to carry a BattleMech into orbit."
  
• "Now, jump jets have a lot of similarities to the fusion rockets of aerospace fighters. They use a magnetically shielded reaction chamber to superheat some material, the reaction mass, and squirt it out a rocket nozzle. Like fighter engines, an electron beam, an electrical arc, is used to superheat the reaction mass."
  
• "However, jump jets do not add plasma vented from the fusion engine, unlike fighters. Aerospace fighters are interested in maximizing their engine efficiency because they have to carry all their reaction mass onboard, and thus want the exhaust as hot as possible. On the other hand, jump jets usually have an endless supply of reaction mass and don't need all the complexity of venting their fusion engine's plasma. These jets thus usually capture air as their reaction mass through a system of turbo-compressors."

Thus, usable changes to Jump Jets include instituting what is essentially an activation delay, adding "spool-up heat", and changing the thrust mechanic to be less "James Bond's jetpack" and more "Wan Hu's chair":

• At t = 0.00s: the MechWarrior (e.g. the player) slams the foot pedals to activate the JJs.
  
• From t = 0.00s to t ≈ 0.75s: whatever protective covers/vents/etc ate in place over the JJ intakes & exhaust ports slide/flip open.
  
  • The turbo-compressors mentioned in TechManual spool up, taking-in & compressing atmospheric gas (or pumping it in from an onboard tank, if operating in an atmosphereless environment) and transferring it to the reaction chamber. Simultaneously, the ignition systems and magnetic containment systems are charged with power from the Fusion Engine.
    
  • Once the environment within the reaction chamber has reached the appropriate state, the ignition system is activated and the reaction mass is quickly superheated.
• At t ≈ 0.75s: the now-superheated reaction mass becomes a plasma is then directed through the (magnetically-shielded) JJ exhaust port, producing a sudden, jarring (hence the "+3 to-hit modifier when making attacks" that comes with Jump Jet use in BattleTech) & short-lived burst of thrust.
  
• From t ≈ 0.75s to time-of-landing: continued active use of Jump Jets produces heat and allows for limited airborne maneuvering.

The best currently-extant video game comparison that I can think of is the "Over Boost" mechanic from the Armored Core games.



From a MWO gameplay perspective, the main effect of introducing a "spool-up the turbo-compressors" mechanic for Jump Jets is to raise the skill threshold for effective use of Jump Jets in combat - they could still be very easily used for navigation and traversing terrain, but "pirouetting through the enemy company with impunity" becomes a thing of the past (since Jump Jet activation would no longer be instantaneous, or particularly smooth) & the skill threshold for "poptarting" is increased substantially as a result of the jarring and violent nature of the jump (reflected in an MWO implementation by severe cockpit & reticle shake).

Thoughts?

I'm sure the specific numbers are mutable, but the basic concept seems very solid and in line with my preference for JJ functionality.

I would add that the ideal would be for JJ use to be integrated into a wider dynamic precision reduction mechanic, where certain things (throttle %, heat %, stability state, etc.) would adjust weapon precision in real time. Triggering JJs should impose a massive DPR penalty that decays over time, more quickly while the JJs are off and more slowly while they're doing deceleration burns. The decay factor is key to balance, as without decay you wind up with what we have now, namely instantaneous stability. This is what truly enabled the poptart meta to become dominant, instead of merely being one of many viable tactics. Adding decay to the precision penalty would make it much more difficult to land those perfect shots while in the air, while stll rewarding knowledge of when and how much to feather your JJs after the initial lift off.

[zortesh]

AngryEggRoll, on 12 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

These jumpjets look much more fun then the ones we have.


Personally I'd settle for much more powerful versions of the current jumpjets, but with a minimal jump thats quite high, so peeps can't hover up to just above cover to poptart and actually have to be exposed.

[Loganauer]

zortesh, on 20 August 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

These jumpjets look much more fun then the ones we have.


Personally I'd settle for much more powerful versions of the current jumpjets, but with a minimal jump thats quite high, so peeps can't hover up to just above cover to poptart and actually have to be exposed.

Jumpjets should handle EXACTLY like that in the video. That is an excellent jump jet design. Though I think it should incur a lot of heat and some energy should be saved for landing or else face knockdown penalties.

Edited by Loganauer, 21 August 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Whatever happens, and some of those ideas are very good.

I think one thing they could do right now is increase jump velocity for every JJ added. Right now it just does not feel right.

My main mech carries 7 Jump jets. Yet barely can make it up to the topside of river city from below. And takes a very long time to do it.

If people like me are willing to give up that much tonnage for JJ's then there should be a bigger payoff in moving.

[Loganauer]

AngryEggRoll, on 12 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

This is almost EXACTLY how I'd like them to work in the game. Maybe add a large heat cost, a long cooldown on "fuel" and require them to save up "fuel" for the landing, or they risk knockdown. Other than that, this would be perfect.

Edited by Loganauer, 21 August 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[Wolfways]

I actually thought JJ's before the nerf were okay.
Tbh though i don't like MWLL's JJ's. Mechs in MWO already feel like plastic instead of metal to me. I'd hate to see mechs bouncing around all over like a line of Zebedee's

I like the Jenners JJ's here: