47 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

I ran the Clan ER LL. I was so powerless against anything and everything that the weapon was a joke.

So. Lets take a look at the ER LL and Clan ER LL as they are in MWO.

Inner Sphere ER LL: 5 tons. 8 heat. 9 damage. 1 second burn time + 3.25 second recharge means you can have successfully fired twice in 1 second burn + 3.25 second reload + 1 second burn, completing 18 damage in a total of 5.25 seconds.

Clan ER LL: 4 tons, 9 heat, 11.25 damage. 2 second burn time + 3.25 second recharge means you can have successfully fired twice in 2 second burn + 3.25 second reload + 2 second burn, completing 22.5 damage in 7.25 seconds.

Lets compare.
18 damage in 5.25 seconds.
22.5 in 7.25 seconds.

DPS: (for two firings with one recharge).
3.429.
3.103.

That's pretty nasty.

Before we move on, lets compare the damage dealt in one second for each.
IS ER LL: 1 second = 9 damage.
Clan ER LL: 1 second (of 2 second beam time) = 5.625 damage.

For some reason the IS is the DPS rig in addition to the burst damage rig, with Clan just having some damage over time advantage that...just doesn't matter in the long run as it's a lead of very...very little damage.
--------------------------------
Lets compare the original idea of 1 second IS and 1.5 Clan seconds and slap in tabletop damage. Then, tabletop ratio damage on current damage.

1 second Inner Sphere to 1.5 second Clan with tabletop damage.

IS ER LL: In 1 second, deals 8 damage.
Clan ER LL: In 1.5 seconds, deals 10 damage.
We'll use compare the damage dealt in 1 second.

IS ER LL: obviously 8 damage in 1 second.
Clan ER LL: 6.67 damage in 1 second.
That's pretty damn fair right there. With a 1.25 second beam time both would do 8 damage in 1 second.

Now in DPS:
1 second + 3.25 seconds = 4.25 seconds = 1.88 dps IS ER LL.
1.5 seconds + 3.25 seconds = 4.75 seconds = 2.105 dps Clan ER LL.
There's a DPS design with burst damage in favor of IS, and damage over time in favor of the Clans.

How is it complicated?

1 second Inner Sphere to 1.5 second Clan, tabletop ratio of damage with MWO's IS ER LL as a base:
Now if we take IS ER LL in MWO, 9 damage... then we can easily manufacture the same kind of balance. Take tabletop difference of 2, then add 2 to 9. Bam. 11 damage FLAT for Clan ER LL.

MWO: IS ER LL: 9 damage in 1 second + 3.25 second reload. 4.25 second firing rate.
Clan ER LL properly done: 11 damage in 1.5 seconds + 3.25 second reload = 4.75 second firing rate.

Damage dealt in 1 second.
In 1 second IS ER LL does 9 damage.
In 1 second Clan ER LL does 7.33 damage.

DPS.
IS ER LL: 1 second beam time + 3.25 recharge = 2.1176 DPS.
Clan ER LL: 1.5 seconds beam time + 3.25 recharge = 2.315789 DPS.

Bam. Balancing done. Why is this crap so difficult?

Edited by Koniving, 17 August 2014 - 12:25 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Koniving, on 13 August 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

^snip
IS ER LL: 1 second = 9 damage.
Clan ER LL: 1 second (of 2 second beam time) = 5.625 damage.
--------------------------------
Why is this crap so difficult?

Thank you on once again Konivig for yet another informative post, sorry for snipping your quote so slim.

Now I know mwo isn't table top, but why is the clan er large laser Not 10 damage is beyond me. If balance was an issue, why did they make the damage supposably 11.25? Why not bring it down to 10 (like it should be and lower beam duration?

I personally do not pilot lights and mediums, but I can't imagine how clan lights are supposed to get their beam duration of 2 seconds without taking heavy flack from the enemy resistance. It's almost a death sentience IMO.

Anyway, I do not solo que anymore, but I would imagine less and less people wanting to que in clan lights because of this. If they want to get their beam durations off, I'm guessing they would want a little more meat on their bones so they can survive the LRM barrage that is most likelly incoming due to staying out in the open longer?

Anyway, I vote for lowering damage to 10 but also decreasing beam duration, forcing them to be more accurate early on to get their max potential. 2.0 seconds is just ridiculous

[Bad Andy]

suck it clanners

[Koniving]

Bad Andy, on 13 August 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

suck it clanners

Run a Clan mech. They're not all that powerful. What made the Clan ER LL dangerous was a really ******* stupid decision on PGI's part to give the targeting computer enhanced range for lasers.


Take this video and skip to 2:07.
See the green and red lasers that are "ZOMG EVERYWHERE" and then they tighten up to one pinpoint spot?
That's what a targeting computer should. That, but faster, meaning they'd have to fix the actual system first and put delayed convergence back in or some similar thingy.

What they could have also done was institute a manual convergence, then the command console and the targeting computer could institute an automatic version of it instead.

[B0oN]

Koniving, no surprise there you made easy work out of that teensie weenie lil poblem... you aren´t Paul nor PGI and don´t love to overcomplicate things just for overcomplications sake .

PGIGP ... look at how easy and elegant a solution to your "perceived problem" can be .
Strive to achieve such solutions (which make your game more enjoyable to play as well in most of the times), you should have done for a long time now ...

A customer demanding solutions .

[Azzgaroth]

Koniving, on 13 August 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I ran the Clan ER LL. I was so powerless against anything and everything that the weapon was a joke.

So. Lets take a look at the ER LL and Clan ER LL as they are in MWO.

Inner Sphere ER LL: 5 tons. 8 heat. 9 damage. 1 second burn time + 3.25 second recharge means you can have successfully fired twice in 1 second burn + 3.25 second reload + 1 second burn, completing 18 damage in a total of 5.25 seconds.

Clan ER LL: 4 tons, 9 heat, 11.25 damage. 2 second burn time + 3.25 second recharge means you can have successfully fired twice in 2 second burn + 3.25 second reload + 2 second burn, completing 22.5 damage in 7.25 seconds.

Lets compare.
18 damage in 5.25 seconds.
22.5 in 7.25 seconds.

Times 2.
36 in 10.5 seconds.
45 in 14.5 seconds.

DPS:
3.429.
3.103.

That's pretty nasty.

Before we move on, lets compare the damage dealt in one second for each.
IS ER LL: 1 second = 9 damage.
Clan ER LL: 1 second (of 2 second beam time) = 5.625 damage.
--------------------------------
Lets compare the original idea of 1 second IS and 1.5 Clan seconds and slap in tabletop damage. Then, tabletop ratio damage on current damage.

1 second Inner Sphere to 1.5 second Clan with tabletop damage.

IS ER LL: In 1 second, deals 8 damage.
Clan ER LL: In 1.5 seconds, deals 10 damage.
We'll use compare the damage dealt in 1 second.

IS ER LL: obviously 8 damage in 1 second.
Clan ER LL: 6.67 damage in 1 second.
That's pretty damn fair right there. With a 1.25 second beam time both would do 8 damage in 1 second.

Now in DPS:
1 second + 3.25 seconds = 4.25 seconds = 1.88 dps IS ER LL.
1.5 seconds + 3.25 seconds = 4.75 seconds = 2.105 dps Clan ER LL.
There's a DPS design with burst damage in favor of IS, and damage over time in favor of the Clans.

How is it complicated?

1 second Inner Sphere to 1.5 second Clan, tabletop ratio of damage with MWO's IS ER LL as a base:
Now if we take IS ER LL in MWO, 9 damage... then we can easily manufacture the same kind of balance. Take tabletop difference of 2, then add 2 to 9. Bam. 11 damage FLAT for Clan ER LL.

MWO: IS ER LL: 9 damage in 1 second + 3.25 second reload. 4.25 second firing rate.
Clan ER LL properly done: 11 damage in 1.5 seconds + 3.25 second reload = 4.75 second firing rate.

Damage dealt in 1 second.
In 1 second IS ER LL does 9 damage.
In 1 second Clan ER LL does 7.33 damage.

DPS.
IS ER LL: 1 second beam time + 3.25 recharge = 2.1176 DPS.
Clan ER LL: 1.5 seconds beam time + 3.25 recharge = 2.315789 DPS.

Bam. Balancing done. Why is this crap so difficult?

PGI should hire this guy...

[Innocent]

Koniving, on 14 August 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Run a Clan mech. They're not all that powerful. What made the Clan ER LL dangerous was a really ******* stupid decision on PGI's part to give the targeting computer enhanced range for lasers.


Take this video and skip to 2:07.
See the green and red lasers that are "ZOMG EVERYWHERE" and then they tighten up to one pinpoint spot?
That's what a targeting computer should. That, but faster, meaning they'd have to fix the actual system first and put delayed convergence back in or some similar thingy.

What they could have also done was institute a manual convergence, then the command console and the targeting computer could institute an automatic version of it instead.

I love how the flamers work under water...

[Bigbacon]

the FF from the new 2 second duration is also killer. you have to leave those things going for so long that your chances of someone running into the beam is pretty high.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Yeah, FF with an CerLL is now just a given..

[Marauder3D]

Koniving has good balance ideas. Mine were simpler, but might have also worked.

Rather than upping beam time, nerf range and heat.

Why not go with TT range for the CERLL? 750 meters is plenty long for this game.

Up heat to 10, stick with 1.5 second beam time.

Either way, 2.0 second beam time means I pulled my 2 CERLL off my Timberwolf and Stormcrow Prime, and all my Adders and Kit foxes. 2 sec beam time guts the weapon's usefullness.

Please use more common sense nerfs, and go back to 1.5 Second beam time.


Interesting fact: since the CERLL nerf I probably have 25 drops with innersphere mechs, and about 3 with clan mechs. My clan mechs aren't fun for me right now.

PGI: you won't make money if people aren't playing your most expensive mechs. (Clan)

[amisu]

Marauder3D, on 16 August 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Interesting fact: since the CERLL nerf I probably have 25 drops with innersphere mechs, and about 3 with clan mechs. My clan mechs aren't fun for me right now.

Just this.

If i knew they would destroy CERLL and CERPPC, I wouldn't buy Warhawk as my second clan mech.

[Bigbacon]

Marauder3D, on 16 August 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Koniving has good balance ideas. Mine were simpler, but might have also worked.

Rather than upping beam time, nerf range and heat.

Why not go with TT range for the CERLL? 750 meters is plenty long for this game.

Up heat to 10, stick with 1.5 second beam time.

Either way, 2.0 second beam time means I pulled my 2 CERLL off my Timberwolf and Stormcrow Prime, and all my Adders and Kit foxes. 2 sec beam time guts the weapon's usefullness.

Please use more common sense nerfs, and go back to 1.5 Second beam time.


Interesting fact: since the CERLL nerf I probably have 25 drops with innersphere mechs, and about 3 with clan mechs. My clan mechs aren't fun for me right now.

PGI: you won't make money if people aren't playing your most expensive mechs. (Clan)

yea I dropped mine from my foxes and my novas.

As a start, just put it back to 1.5 seconds and leave the other changes in place.

[Shogun459]

How many hours have the Devs played Clan Mechs in particular this Paul guy? Does Paul even have a Clan Mech in his stable that he runs CERLL on? Bet not many hours against humans.

I got into this game with MW 1-4. I joined MWO to play a Madcat with 4 erlarge lasers.
Paul broke my game and made that impossible.
WAS going to buy another clan mech, not now.
Played since closed Beta waiting for what was promised and got a **** sandwich instead won't be spending ANY more money on this game and won't even play until it's fixed.

Lots of other things to spend my money on that an anti-clan racist like this Paul character won't nerf because he's got personnal problems with the Clanners or company power and authority.

[Shogun459]

I realy think that NOW PGI has our money and is now trying to kill the game so they can move on.

Con artists and thieves.

I want my money back.

[Bront]

Koniving, on 13 August 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Exactly.
TT's IS ER LL: 8 damage, 12 heat.
TT's Clan ER LL: 10 damage, 12 heat.

Difference: 2 damage. Identical heat.

MWO's IS ER LL: 9 damage, 8 heat.
MWO's Clan ER LL: 11.25 damage, 9 heat (currently, was 8 heat).

Difference: 2.25 damage. Was identical heat, now slightly more.

Why is the damage so high for either weapon?

The damage being higher, at least for the IS one, gave it some functionality over the ML and a compromise from the PPC. Those numbers honestly don't look wrong. I do think they should roll back the beam durration on the ERLL. Throw in something like a slightly longer cool down time, scale the heatscale up to 6 (rather than 12), maybe trim 50-100 meters off the range. Heck, drop the .25 damage not a huge deal, but it's something) and see how it does. Don't nerf too much too fast.

Edit: After reading your longer breakdown post, I think you're mostly right there, the only other thing to factor in is that clan mechs can fit more gear/weapons/heatsinks in their mechs, but that's where a heatscale increase factors in, allowing 3CERLLs to be somewhat viable, but a choice you make between damage now vs heat now.

Edited by Bront, 17 August 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Koniving]

Bront, on 17 August 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

The damage being higher, at least for the IS one, gave it some functionality over the ML and a compromise from the PPC. Those numbers honestly don't look wrong. I do think they should roll back the beam durration on the ERLL. Throw in something like a slightly longer cool down time, scale the heatscale up to 6 (rather than 12), maybe trim 50-100 meters off the range. Heck, drop the .25 damage not a huge deal, but it's something) and see how it does. Don't nerf too much too fast.

It has a longer cooldown already. The beam time itself is already a longer cooldown.
The only thing it needed was 1) the removal of the 0.25 damage and 2) the removal of the targeting computer which is complete bullshit.

A targeting computer should be responsible for faster convergence akin to this.


Not extending range or making bullets faster.

[Bront]

Yeah, I understand wanting to make the targeting computer worth something, and honestly I can udnerstand an effective range increase, but projectile speed seems odd indeed.

[Reno Blade]

PGI stated it a few times.
Clans will have more range and damage, but they will have different mechanics to keep them from beeing OP which require more skill (like real clan warriors).

Longer beam = need more skill for full damage
UAC burst = need more skill for full damage

PPC speed = need more skill to hit
It was the best weapon before the nerf because it was easy to aim and hit with.

Gauss has charge = already needs more skill than other FLD PP.


Mission accomplished.

[Newtype]

I would agree with Koniving's ideas as the 2 second beam time is just tad too long to deal enough damage when you expose your Clan mech.

Just in case that they changed the values to Koniving's proposed ones and people are still complaining. I would just prefer for them to just nerf/reduce the range instead(Around 700-750 sounds good).

Edited by Newtype, 17 August 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Shogun459]

Bad Andy, on 13 August 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

suck it clanners

Are you so lacking in imagination, skill and/or intellegence that you can't think of any way to beat your Clan Opponents OTHER than to go cry to Mom and Dad , (Devs), to get the rules changed in your favor?