44 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior319348]

Simple post; the mountable long tom has been avaliable in the timeline for.... a long time i think, so do you want to use it?

And the people who turn down ideas simply because they dont like being killed in the game, please provide more than just that as a reason.

This thread was started a very long time ago, probably when I was comparable to a tier 4 experience level.

I would suggest starting a new thread with up to date argument.

Edited by Gigliowanananacom, 03 May 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[Draykin]

A 30 ton artillery piece that takes up 30 critical slots? Sorry to say, but unless the Devs allow crit-bleeding, you couldn't even fit it on ANY 'Mech.

[MechWarrior319348]

Draykin, on 15 August 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

A 30 ton artillery piece that takes up 30 critical slots? Sorry to say, but unless the Devs allow crit-bleeding, you couldn't even fit it on ANY 'Mech.

It's part of the mechwarrior universe and has been used in games, books, etc.. So that's not really a good excuse.

[Strum Wealh]

letuce head, on 15 August 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's part of the mechwarrior universe and has been used in games, books, etc.. So that's not really a good excuse.

That it cannot be mounted on any 'Mech in the game (due to the lack of the needed crit-splitting mechanic) is plenty of reason not to implement the Long Tom Cannon (20 tons, 15 criticals), which should not be conflated with the larger, heavier Long Tom Artillery Piece (30 tons, 30 criticals).

You would be better off lobbying for the inclusion of the Sniper Artillery Cannon (15 tons, 10 criticals) and/or the Thumper Cannon (10 tons, 7 criticals).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 15 August 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[MechWarrior319348]

Actually, I just found that it was directly mentioned in ask the devs 27, it was stated by Garth that he "assumed" that we will see many exotic weapons, such as the long tom added.

So let's not assume that the devs won't add it based on slot technicalities. We can move past that now....

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I didn't know it was possible to mount a long Tom into a battletech. Isn't it 30 crits?
Arm to torso isn't enough crits for 30 slots right?

Or are you able to bleed from one side torso into ct into next side torso?

I was under the impression arrow iv and thumper were the only mech mountable arties

[MechWarrior319348]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 15 August 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I didn't know it was possible to mount a long Tom into a battletech. Isn't it 30 crits?
Arm to torso isn't enough crits for 30 slots right?

Or are you able to bleed from one side torso into ct into next side torso?

I was under the impression arrow iv and thumper were the only mech mountable arties

Strum Wealth's post mentions that there is confusion between the mech mounted long tom, and the platform mounted long tom. The mech mounted long tom is scaled down to fit on large mechs, it weighs 20 tons and requires 15 slots.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

I could see a functional Artillery element like this being added to the 'Attack/Defend' mode.
- As part of the 'item to defend', or Rear area location units.
- Possibly carrying out it's 'suppression' mission for some other battle and Ai controlled.

These 'Guns' were very long range, so would probably never be able to adapt to the small maps we currently have.
- If we are looking for something in the 'Arty' list that would fit on our maps, lets talk Arrow IV, or as mentioned the Mech carrying "Sniper', 'Thumper'. All ranged to distances we could use in the game, but specialized weapons and normally carrying little ammo. (If there was some form of Ai consumable 'Ammo carrier', but that's another issue in itself.)

All these 'Guns' are area weapons and not directed at specific targets but locations, radius and splash damage being there effect. The Arrow IV is a directed missile arty but still spot and radius damage, and can be 'TAG'd' to one target.

Lots of directions that PGI can go with these systems, I guess we just need to wait for development to build them.

As a note here, during the initial Clan Invasion the IS used Artillery to great effect, the Clans initially detested the use of these weapons. (no honour gained)

9erRed

[Strum Wealh]

letuce head, on 15 August 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Actually, I just found that it was directly mentioned in ask the devs 27, it was stated by Garth that he "assumed" that we will see many exotic weapons, such as the long tom added.

So let's not assume that the devs won't add it based on slot technicalities. We can move past that now....

The exact words of Garth (who is no longer with PGI, by the way) in Ask the Devs #27 did not specifically indicate that the Long Tom was specifically considered for implementation.

Quote

Q: Are we going to be seeing any of the more exotic weapons, such as the Arrow IV or Long Tom?[Least Action Jackson]
A: I assume so. Maybe not all of the exotic weapons (lolz chemical lasers), but many of them, yes. [Garth]

(source)

In fact, both of the weapon systems that Least Action Jackson had asked about - the Long Tom Cannon (20 tons, 15 criticals) and the Arrow IV artillery missile launcher (15 tons & 15 criticals for the IS version) - are currently impossible to implement in MWO, and would remain so unless & until crit-splitting is enabled.

However, Bryan Ekman stated in Ask the Devs #34 that crit-splitting would "most likely not" ever be allowed in MWO.

Quote

Eddrick: Will Critical Slot splitting for large weapons ever be allowed?

A: Most likely not, since it would create many balancing edge cases.

(source)

There are other "exotic weapons" that PGI could implement without having to either work-up a component crit-splitting system (which they've also specifically stated that they have no intention of doing in the near term, if ever) or altering weight or crits for weapons (which they're also very-probably never going to do). These other "exotic weapons" include:

• the Binary Laser Cannon (used on the MAD-4X Marauder in the 3030s and the ZEU-6Y Zeus in the 2900s)
  
• the Vehicle Flamer
  
• the Grenade Launcher ('Mech-mounted version weighs 0.5 tons & consumes 1 crit)
  
• the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle (available as prototypes in 3051)
  
• the Light Rifle (would need a modified damage system to be made workable)
  
• the Medium Rifle
  
• the Heavy Rifle
  
• the Mech Mortar/1
  
• the Mech Mortar/2
  
• the Mech Mortar/4
  
• the Mech Mortar/8
  
• the Sniper Artillery Cannon
  
• the Thumper Cannon

They could also throw in additional equipment like C3, Electronic Warfare Equipment, Superchargers (which, while uncommon, were available prior to the Clan Invasion), and Triple-Strength Myomer (available as an upgrade, similar to what is done with Artemis IV & DHS).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 15 August 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[MechWarrior319348]

What exactly is the current viewpoint on crit splitting with the devs? A weapon like this would be one of the special items in the game that require it. Specific weapons, and I stress "specific" weapons should be aloud to bleed over. I'm not talking about bleeding over ac20s and lrm20s. So what exactly do they mean by that?

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

The Arrow IV launchers 'completely replace' the Catapults existing launch system in the C3 variant.

- This could be done by eliminating some of the torso slots that exist, converting them into the 'Arrow' system.
- Moving all 15 slots to these launchers directly, similar to replacing the entire side with the system.
- You would not be sharing slots but moving them to the arm launchers.
(would this 'break' the chassis structure? There's 12 slots on the torso's of the Cat, you need to remove 5 of these.)
- That's 30tons of launchers, half the weight of the Cat! (only 20 shots and your done)

This would require various changes to be done for that chassis, art work possibly being a major change.
- The launchers may need to be integrated into the Mech's frame, possibly?
(the launchers are 15Tons, that's 5 tons heavier than a LRM20 pack. This is a large system.)
- The chassis is stated as being identical to the C1 with some jump jet issues
- The loadout is weak with only 1 ton of ammo on the standard listed unit. (and no way in game of conducting a 'reload')

Some counter impute:
I can see where PGI has problems, it's all doable but requires considerable time, resources and cost. And with little to show for all the effort. This systems touch's on quite a few 'issue' areas in the game, spot, radius, and splash damage being the big tickets. It could change everything we have currently in game with hit detection problems.
- This is a unique Mech in it's design and may not be worth the effort to create it, for it's use on the battlefield.
- Yes it would be nice to have, but brings with it many concerns that PGI does not have time to deal with 'at this time'.

During the Invasion the IS used all forms of artillery quite a bit, initially the Clan's suffered due to it's use, but adapted sometime in the 4th to 5th wave. We need as many types of Arty systems as were present in the storyline as we can get, starting with the IS having superior numbers and the Clans quickly escalating up by 3051.

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 15 August 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Wolfways]

letuce head, on 15 August 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's part of the mechwarrior universe and has been used in games, books, etc.. So that's not really a good excuse.

As if PGI care about what is in the Mechwarrior universe. I don't remember reading about magic Jesus boxes or 3pv drones in the BT/MW universe.

[MechWarrior319348]

Wolfways, on 15 August 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

As if PGI care about what is in the Mechwarrior universe. I don't remember reading about magic Jesus boxes or 3pv drones in the BT/MW universe.

so..... you are for it or against it? My belief is that they look at suggestions..... although most of my brain sais that they dont. Anyway, i think that if enough attention is drawn to a subject, it cant help but go unnoticed. Optimistic thinking, but thats what keeps the world turning. Something like this is doable, study the responses and you may come to the same conclusion.

The fact of the matter is, with the current set up, this cant be implemented, but.... if the devs devoted a little effort to our suggestions, instead of ALWAYS ****** IGNORING THEM, then maybe they would find the will to try to add fun things to the game, and have fun doing it, instead of just focusing on what might bring them more money.

[Arctcwolf]

crit splitting for specific weapon systems isnt a difficult dynamic to implement. the issue will be how to aim and fire such systems, while also looking at how the crits are distributed. as for crits, they would completely fill a torso and part of an arm, since the launcher itself is so big it much be first torso mounted, and then spread into the arm.The effect would be causing both torso and arm to lose all effective missile launch hardpoints in lieu of the arrow IV, balistics and energy would remain in place in the arm, but the side torso would be completely filled, there would be no use for any other hardpoints in the side torso. both tag and artemis should effect an arrow IV system, and of course a new arm/torso would have to be conceived, very time consuming for just 1 weapon system, a lot of resources that could go elsewhere.

The long tom is an artillery piece strapped on a mech. in this way, it should be strapped to the back of a mech, have a minimum range, have some sort of parabolic trajectory. I'd be in favor of both AoE ammo, as wel as direct damage ammo. Only the heaviest mechs should carry such a piece, due to weight and crit slot requirements, many of the same limitations applying from the arrow IV. recoil should apply to the firing of the long tom, and reduced accuracy applied when moving.

[MechWarrior319348]

Arctcwolf, on 15 August 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

crit splitting for specific weapon systems isnt a difficult dynamic to implement. the issue will be how to aim and fire such systems, while also looking at how the crits are distributed. as for crits, they would completely fill a torso and part of an arm, since the launcher itself is so big it much be first torso mounted, and then spread into the arm.The effect would be causing both torso and arm to lose all effective missile launch hardpoints in lieu of the arrow IV, balistics and energy would remain in place in the arm, but the side torso would be completely filled, there would be no use for any other hardpoints in the side torso. both tag and artemis should effect an arrow IV system, and of course a new arm/torso would have to be conceived, very time consuming for just 1 weapon system, a lot of resources that could go elsewhere.

The long tom is an artillery piece strapped on a mech. in this way, it should be strapped to the back of a mech, have a minimum range, have some sort of parabolic trajectory. I'd be in favor of both AoE ammo, as wel as direct damage ammo. Only the heaviest mechs should carry such a piece, due to weight and crit slot requirements, many of the same limitations applying from the arrow IV. recoil should apply to the firing of the long tom, and reduced accuracy applied when moving.

Well, I am glad that you mention the difficulty on how to aim and manage such a weapon. Actual mounting technicalities aside, it does seem that such a weapon would require a certain level of competence to operate, an arcing trajectory, an estimate of how to determine where to aim in relation to distance. It shouldn't seem so threatening of a weapon, without a skilled pilot.

[Wolfways]

letuce head, on 15 August 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

so..... you are for it or against it?

I'm all for putting everything that is actually from the BT universe into the game, but they are looking at how to make the matches more shorter ranged fights so i doubt PGI would do this tbh.

[Strum Wealh]

9erRed, on 15 August 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Greetings all,

The Arrow IV launchers 'completely replace' the Catapults existing launch system in the C3 variant.

- This could be done by eliminating some of the torso slots that exist, converting them into the 'Arrow' system.
- Moving all 15 slots to these launchers directly, similar to replacing the entire side with the system.
- You would not be sharing slots but moving them to the arm launchers.
(would this 'break' the chassis structure? There's 12 slots on the torso's of the Cat, you need to remove 5 of these.)
- That's 30tons of launchers, half the weight of the Cat! (only 20 shots and your done)

This would require various changes to be done for that chassis, art work possibly being a major change.
- The launchers may need to be integrated into the Mech's frame, possibly?
(the launchers are 15Tons, that's 5 tons heavier than a LRM20 pack. This is a large system.)
- The chassis is stated as being identical to the C1 with some jump jet issues
- The loadout is weak with only 1 ton of ammo on the standard listed unit. (and no way in game of conducting a 'reload')

Some counter impute:
I can see where PGI has problems, it's all doable but requires considerable time, resources and cost. And with little to show for all the effort. This systems touch's on quite a few 'issue' areas in the game, spot, radius, and splash damage being the big tickets. It could change everything we have currently in game with hit detection problems.
- This is a unique Mech in it's design and may not be worth the effort to create it, for it's use on the battlefield.
- Yes it would be nice to have, but brings with it many concerns that PGI does not have time to deal with 'at this time'.

During the Invasion the IS used all forms of artillery quite a bit, initially the Clan's suffered due to it's use, but adapted sometime in the 4th to 5th wave. We need as many types of Arty systems as were present in the storyline as we can get, starting with the IS having superior numbers and the Clans quickly escalating up by 3051.

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

However, the CPLT-C3 only carries one Arrow IV launcher (split between the Right Arm & the Right Torso); the single Arrow IV launcher (at 15 tons) and its single ton of Arrow IV ammunition replaces the twinned LRM-15 launchers (7 tons apiece, for a total of 14 tons) and two tons of LRM ammunition of the CPLT-C1.

With PGI's current stance on crit-splitting for weapons amounting to "not gonna happen", any weapon that needs more than 12 crits (which is really just the IS Arrow IV Launcher, the Long Tom Cannon, and the larger artillery pieces) is highly unlikely to ever be implemented.
Granted, the Clan Arrow IV launcher only consumes 12 crits (such that it can fit in a single side-torso, if there is a STD Engine). However, I doubt they would implement the Arrow IV as a Clan-only weapon.

Moreover, there is that part of the playerbase that fancies calling itself "the community" that would balk and scream bloody murder over the design role of such a 'Mech as the CPLT-C3:
"Capellan military strategists are beginning to redeploy 'Mechs to combine one, two, or even three Catapults in the same headquarters unit with a Raven. The Raven can then sneak into a combat area and pinpoint its enemy, taking full advantage of its advanced electronics to rain in incredible destruction from the faraway Catapults."
Heavens forbid, that a four-man Lance might potentially outfit itself with three CPLT-C3s and a RVN-3L and dare to actually use them as canonically designed/described...!
"The community" would make it more trouble for PGI than it'd be worth to make the changes to allow it in the first place.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

The way I've seen 'that other game' (MW:LL) handle aiming for the long range guns is to,

1. Locate the target with shared sensor data.
2. Read the range indicator to that target.
3. Aim in that direction.
4. Elevate the gun to match the distance to target. (on the gun elevation readout, and target range)
5. Fire, with whatever lead or offset you think will create the 'effect' on the target and location.
- Now this was for a vehicle mounted Long Tom weapon, and required the vehicle be 'set' in position.
- 'Set in position' required 'deploying' stabilizers which took a few seconds and reduced your traverse to a narrow arc.
- The Gun could only be fired when it was stabilized.

If we were talking about a Mech mounted system, I would think the Mech would also need to 'Brace' for the gun shoot.
- Normally that would be to have the Mech kneel down to stabilize the platform.
~ Sadly that feature is not modeled in this game.

(MW:LL did/does have this feature for most Mech's, it sped up the targeting lock, increased the 'chance to hit', and provided a lower silhouette, and made your Mech a more difficult target to hit as well as lock. You needed to be at a full stop to 'adapt' that position, and took about 2 sec's to enter and leave that posture.)

So, many things for PGI to discuss and consider, if the time and effort is worth the benefit of some of these systems. Are they able to build, construct, and have these systems work within the current engine? Are they simply a niche item that would not see any use? How do these systems effect other weapons, hit scan, splash damage, distances within the game?

Just some ideas,
9erRed

[Kalimaster]

We need to keep posts like this one on the long tom before those Devs, and give them time to work on it. MWO is still a young game, and is growing, although slowly.

[Koniving]

Gigliowanananacom, on 15 August 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Simple post; the mountable long tom has been avaliable in the timeline for.... a long time i think, so do you want to use it?

And the people who turn down ideas simply because they dont like being killed in the game, please provide more than just that as a reason.

Yep. I believe it should be in.

I even included it on the hardpoints list. The basis of which comes straight from the fluff on the ease and difficulty of swapping specific weapon types on standard battlemechs.

Quote

Missiles, I used a canon fluff from the MRM and mortar entries on Sarna to decide the three tier system. Though Battletech actually has a five tier system.

• SRMs 2-4, streaks 2-4, LRM-5, Mech Mortar/1 = class 1.
  
• SRM-6, Streak 6, LRM-10, MRM-10, Mortar/2, NARC = class 2
  
• LRM-15, MRM-20, mortar/4 = class 3
  
• LRM-20, MRM-30, mortar/8 = class 4 (merged these with class 3 for my tier system for now)
  
• Arrow IV, MRM-40, Long Tom = class 5 (merged with class 3 for now).

The mortars evidently count as launcher-swappable weapons and not ballistic weapons. One can assume this is because they are meant to aim skyward, where most ballistic mounts are non-adjustable and thus couldn't properly 'mortar'.