59 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

Getting sorta tired of jumping face huggers.

[nehebkau]

Getting tired of the lag introduced when you run into someone.

Edited by nehebkau, 19 August 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Somewhere between Soon™ and 90 Days after CW launch.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 August 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Mechteric]

when higher priority things are done

[stjobe]

ManDaisy, on 19 August 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Getting sorta tired of jumping face huggers.

So shoot them?

[Roland]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 August 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

when higher priority things are done

Like Hero mechs.
Which will never be done.

[Kassatsu]

Collisions? You mean the ones that were removed because people trolled Paul with them?

Good one. Next you'll ask when CW is coming.

[Sephlock]

When will collisions* and knockdowns come back?

When Goons no longer heart Paul.



*INB4 "that guy" comes in and says BUT TECHNICALLY WE HAVE COLLISIONS!

[stjobe]

Sephlock, on 19 August 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

*INB4 "that guy" comes in and says BUT TECHNICALLY WE HAVE COLLISIONS!

Allow me

We do have collisions and collision damage; it's very small, but it's there.
We don't have knockdowns, because just as you say, Goons heart Paul.

Edit: Here's a recent video showing collision damage

Edited by stjobe, 19 August 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Here's your timeline.

[oneproduct]

I don't understand why people think this would be a good idea.

Imagine you're a light without jumpjets and you run into a fast moving medium in one of the canyons in canyon network. If he runs at you at full speed it's greater than your reverse speed and he can simply run at you and bowl you over. If you turn and run around at full speed then he'd just get to shoot at you the whole time. And when you're getting up, someone can simply get ready to bowl you over again and there's nothing you could do to prevent it.

Also, a 35 ton mech running at 150 km/h produces over three times the kinetic energy of a 100 ton mech running at 50 km/h (E = 1/2 * m * v^2). If a firestarter ran at an atlas' leg he could very well cause the atlas to topple (hurting himself in the meantime of course). It's the same thing with attack dogs. They weigh less than you but they're moving very fast so when they jump at you they knock you over.

For low speed collisions it'd be different, but for the big guys wanting to knock small mechs over, I hope you'd be prepared to accept things the other way around as well.

[WmLowFlyer]

ManDaisy, on 19 August 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Getting sorta tired of jumping face huggers.

Soon™

[Alistair Winter]

oneproduct, on 19 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I don't understand why people think this would be a good idea.

Because it's not an on/ off switch. It's a game mechanic that can be balanced to an optimal situation where we have both fun and realism.

The choice between Dragon Bowl and our current bumper car fantasy world is a false dichotomy. It's possible to meet halfway, or 10% of the way or 90% of the way. And it's actually not even a straight line between realism and fantasy. There are multiple variables that can be manipulated to find the perfect balance.

It's not a question of whether or not it's a good idea. It's whether or not PGI is interested. And they're clearly not. That's why the question is irrelevant. Not because it would never work.

[Blakkstar]

Hey, these are difficult game mechanics to program. Oh wait. They're not. They were in the original Mechwarrior, which came out in 1989.

[Roland]

oneproduct, on 19 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I don't understand why people think this would be a good idea.

Imagine you're a light without jumpjets and you run into a fast moving medium in one of the canyons in canyon network. If he runs at you at full speed it's greater than your reverse speed and he can simply run at you and bowl you over. If you turn and run around at full speed then he'd just get to shoot at you the whole time. And when you're getting up, someone can simply get ready to bowl you over again and there's nothing you could do to prevent it.

Yeah, it's almost as though you'd have to use piloting skill and agility to avoid his slower mech, and try not to allow yourself to be cornered.

[PapajIGC]

oneproduct, on 19 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I don't understand why people think this would be a good idea.

Imagine you're a light without jumpjets and you run into a fast moving medium in one of the canyons in canyon network. If he runs at you at full speed it's greater than your reverse speed and he can simply run at you and bowl you over. If you turn and run around at full speed then he'd just get to shoot at you the whole time. And when you're getting up, someone can simply get ready to bowl you over again and there's nothing you could do to prevent it.

Also, a 35 ton mech running at 150 km/h produces over three times the kinetic energy of a 100 ton mech running at 50 km/h (E = 1/2 * m * v^2). If a firestarter ran at an atlas' leg he could very well cause the atlas to topple (hurting himself in the meantime of course). It's the same thing with attack dogs. They weigh less than you but they're moving very fast so when they jump at you they knock you over.

For low speed collisions it'd be different, but for the big guys wanting to knock small mechs over, I hope you'd be prepared to accept things the other way around as well.

There's also this thing called conservation of momentum and impulse. The more massive object is less likely to experience changes in direction or speed. Why do you think you can throw a ball at a brick wall and have the wall not move despite it having no kinetic energy? Now, I realize real world physics does not apply because this is a video game, especially one made by PGI, but seriously...know your physics.

[oneproduct]

Alistair Winter, on 19 August 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Because it's not an on/ off switch. It's a game mechanic that can be balanced to an optimal situation where we have both fun and realism.

Some parts of it are on/off, in particular being completely unable to prevent someone from getting into position to knock you down again while you're getting up from a previously knockdown. Unless you want to add something arbitrary like knockdown immunity for X seconds after having been knocked down. But arbitrary things like this are bad in the same way as ghost heat. The guy might have 2 seconds of knockdown invulnerability and you hit him full force at 1.9 seconds into that invulnerability and nothing happens.

Frustration at loss of control is also pretty on/off. If you get knocked down you have to be knocked down for at least a certain amount of time during which an animation would play. You can't do less than some minimum unless you speed up the animation and make it look pretty garbage.

Roland, on 19 August 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Yeah, it's almost as though you'd have to use piloting skill and agility to avoid his slower mech, and try not to allow yourself to be cornered.

I was talking about a 140 km/h light mech vs a 110 km/h medium. He's not exactly that much slower. And I specifically outlined a scenario where you're in a canyon and there's not exactly that much space to move around. You could even have a situation where they're in one of the cities in River City or Frozen City where there's even less space. He could also be turning a corner exactly as you get to it and there's not much you can do.

And once you're knocked down, no amount of piloting skill is going to be able to prevent the other mech from getting into position to knock you down again the moment you get up. And generally speaking, I think it's pretty fair to say that good light mech pilots regularly have to display better piloting skills than heavier mechs simply due to the fact that their faster speed results in them having to make more decisions more frequently.

And again, just because a mech is smaller, it doesn't mean that he should have to avoid larger mechs. Small objects moving fast can beat larger objects. I.e. my attack dog example or bullets. Bullets are very small, should they get knocked down when they hit you?

An atlas' moving 50 km/h (ignore units of mass and speed since we're using the same for the small mech) has E = 1/2 * 100 * 50^2 = 125000. A firestarter moving 150 km/h has E = 1/2 * 35 * 150^2 = 393750. A firestarter can impact an Atlas with three times the amount of energy that the Atlas' engine can generate. And all of that impact is going to be focused on one of the Atlas' legs. In the same way that screen shake is based on damage and velocity of the weapon, if collisions were based on mech weight and speed small mechs could easily topple larger ones.

I also get the whole "you can't apply math to a game" thing (in particular this kind of shows small mechs move disproportionately fast for their engine size), but I'm tired of heavy mechs thinking they should just be able to stomp around small mechs without thinking that small mechs can knock them over just fine.

[PANZERKAT]

Add a slight crouch feature which absorbs the knockdown as your mechs braces. keeping you standing and both parties taking damage. Dynamic interactive game features. WHO KNEW!

Knockdown or ramming causes a static # of damage. A skill can unlock slightly more. A mech module helps reduce physical damage from other mechs.

If having all mechs able to knockdown and ram is a bad idea, add even that ability as a mech module. Special engineering needed to be done so stupid mecjocks aren't running around destroying their machines with one impact. Doesn't make total sense, but in MWO we have no fear of death and no reason not to run around like idiots, destroying our machine and becoming disposed....for a few minutes.

Limiting it to a mech slot means you wont see it spam the battlefield. At first, yes, but there are better options for your mech slot.

Edited by KOMMISSAR KITTY, 19 August 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[Carrie Harder]

We don't need more reasons to spam high-tonnage mechs.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Mcgral18, on 19 August 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Somewhere between Soon™ and 90 Days after CW launch.

Actually, it's been indicated before that physical combat (including knockdown/shoving) is in the same group of workpieces as terrain damage, which has been slated for 'Eventually™', which is nothing remotely like soon, Soon™, -set date-, or -set time after certain other thing-.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 19 August 2014 - 05:28 PM.