140 replies to this topic

[Sable Phoenix]

After giving it a couple weeks to judge the look and feel of the Clan ER Large Laser with the longer burn time, there is no doubt that it needs to be reverted.

Two seconds is brutal and makes the weapon useless for anything lighter than a Stormcrow (and that only in the hands of a very good pilot). The heat nerf I can see, that's fine, but the burn time nerf is utterly excessive.

Put it back to 1.5 seconds.

[Darian DelFord]

Agreed, it all but killed a very viable Kit Fox Build. When a reduction (nerf) needs to be done, best to do it one step at a time. Not multiple whacks at once.

[Ens]

they already said that, when the new modules arrive there might be one for decreasing the burn time for certain lasers....
so just wait a bit

Edited by Ens, 22 August 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[Sable Phoenix]

Ens, on 22 August 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

they already said that, when the new modules arrive there might be one for decreasing the burn time for certain lasers....
so just wait a bit

Great, but that still doesn't change the fact that the base burn time is currently too long and will still be too long even after (or if) the modules come out.

Besides which, what do you expect even a level 5 burn reduction module to actually subtract from the burn time? 5%? 10% if we're lucky. That's still nowhere close to the original burn time, which already forced lights to expose themselves for a dangerously long time in order to place full damage on target. A module, while being yet another entry in PGI's illustrious history of band-aid fixes for self-created problems, would still be, in fact, a band-aid. It would not actually address the problem.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 22 August 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[Nauht]

Ens, on 22 August 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

they already said that, when the new modules arrive there might be one for decreasing the burn time for certain lasers....
so just wait a bit

That's the plan - force you to spend CB for modules.

[Hillbillycrow]

The only things arguable I see in your post is the assumption that heavies and assaults can use it without problem. I stopped using it because it is wayyyy too much facetime and tends to make even more friendly fire incidents than before. Maybe a slightly lower effective range adjustment and / or a slightly higher recharge would have been a better way to deal with it.

Also: my favorite, fun build with it was a c-erl boat on the DW which, I might add, was persistently and demonstratively less effective than a dual gauss or lbx build in points and kdr.

[Reitrix]

Sable Phoenix, on 22 August 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Great, but that still doesn't change the fact that the base burn time is currently too long and will still be too long even after (or if) the modules come out.

Besides which, what do you expect even a level 5 burn reduction module to actually subtract from the burn time? 5%? 10% if we're lucky. That's still nowhere close to the original burn time, which already forced lights to expose themselves for a dangerously long time in order to place full damage on target. A module, while being yet another entry in PGI's illustrious history of band-aid fixes for self-created problems, would still be, in fact, a band-aid. It would not actually address the problem.

How many weapons can return fire at the 1k+ mark and do meaningful damage to you? The CERLL is fine.
If you're trying to peek over the same ridge over and over again, then you deserve to be shot.
If you're popping up in full view of enemy snipers expecting you to do so, you deserve to be shot.

if you're running LLs in Lights, use your speed to reposition after every shot. 2 second exposure isn't the death sentence you make it out to be unless you're doing what i mentioned above. I fail to see how half a second less exposure would somehow magically make your snipes any better.

[Sable Phoenix]

Reitrix, on 22 August 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

How many weapons can return fire at the 1k+ mark and do meaningful damage to you? The CERLL is fine.
If you're trying to peek over the same ridge over and over again, then you deserve to be shot.
If you're popping up in full view of enemy snipers expecting you to do so, you deserve to be shot.

if you're running LLs in Lights, use your speed to reposition after every shot. 2 second exposure isn't the death sentence you make it out to be unless you're doing what i mentioned above. I fail to see how half a second less exposure would somehow magically make your snipes any better.

Fine, I concentrated on lights because they're the most heavily impacted, but a heavy or an assault, as hillbillycrow points out, also needs to put excessive face time on a target to get full damage out of the burn. If you're not rolling damage you're dying quickly, and the cerLL forces you to shorten your effective lifespan or waste a good portion of its damage, and, as again was pointed out above, potentially rake your friendlies with it as well.

The cerLL is NOT fine.

[Ens]

Sable Phoenix, on 22 August 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Great, but that still doesn't change the fact that the base burn time is currently too long and will still be too long even after (or if) the modules come out.

Besides which, what do you expect even a level 5 burn reduction module to actually subtract from the burn time? 5%? 10% if we're lucky. That's still nowhere close to the original burn time, which already forced lights to expose themselves for a dangerously long time in order to place full damage on target. A module, while being yet another entry in PGI's illustrious history of band-aid fixes for self-created problems, would still be, in fact, a band-aid. It would not actually address the problem.

get used to medium lasers then

[Black Ivan]

Burn time is much too long.

I'm going for Gauss and ER Meds until they nerf them into uselessness

Edited by Black Ivan, 22 August 2014 - 03:12 AM.

[Reitrix]

Sable Phoenix, on 22 August 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

Fine, I concentrated on lights because they're the most heavily impacted, but a heavy or an assault, as hillbillycrow points out, also needs to put excessive face time on a target to get full damage out of the burn. If you're not rolling damage you're dying quickly, and the cerLL forces you to shorten your effective lifespan or waste a good portion of its damage, and, as again was pointed out above, potentially rake your friendlies with it as well.

The cerLL is NOT fine.

The flipside is that anyone on the receiving end of the CERLLs would be unable to return fire effectively as they would need to be rolling damage themselves.
And if your target is also a Clan 'Mech, you both need facetime to deal full damage.
If your target is a ballistic IS 'mech, you wouldn't try to engage him face to face anyways.
I find CERLLs to work fine on my WHK, especially since its mostly a short range facewrecker.
The long beam durations allow me to chain 3 of them at my target while advancing forward, giving me either a significant amount of CT damage to my target if he fails to twist, or breathing space to advance on him while he is rolling damage to avoid CT damage.

It's my opinion that the CERLL is fine, since i have zero issues with making use of it. Then again, i never play the peek-a-boo game the majority of PuGs favor.

[Hillbillycrow]

Reitrix, if I wanted I could still do "significant" damage to you at 1000k so the nerf didn't do a damn thing but make them worse at every other range. How often does anyone get 1k shots anyway? On Alpine? Maybe?

Also a 1/2 a second is a significant amount of twitch time, particularly when hill fighting or brawling. I assume by your last post you die from cores most frequently.

[Budor]

Sable Phoenix, on 22 August 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

After giving it a couple weeks to judge the look and feel of the Clan ER Large Laser with the longer burn time, there is no doubt that it needs to be reverted.

Two seconds is brutal and makes the weapon useless for anything lighter than a Stormcrow (and that only in the hands of a very good pilot). The heat nerf I can see, that's fine, but the burn time nerf is utterly excessive.

Put it back to 1.5 seconds.

It was too good. What would you want them to do instead, increase heat more or cut the range?

Edited by Budor, 22 August 2014 - 03:17 AM.

[AncillaLupus]

C-ER-LL´s are indeed broken.
I used them in every signle build i´ve been running since claners came out, even some time after this ... strange ... burn duration nerf for some time but, honestly guys, they are totally useless now.

0,5 sec more exposure towards the enemy sounds not much, but it IS.
The lighter the mech gets, the more it is a death sentence to be exposed 0.5 secs longer.

Even on my TBRs i unmounted them and changed them for pulsers or med-LLs.
One just have to take a look which clan mechs do still use C-ER-LL in their configs. As good as none anymore, since the patch came out. For a good reason.

Let´s just have a look at the damage numbers:

C-ER-LL >> 2 sec burn >> 11,25 damage = 5,625 dam per sec.
C-MDL >> 1.3 sec burn >> 7,00 damage = 5,3846 dam per sec.

ER-LL >> 1 sec burn >> 9.00 damage = 9.00 dam per sec.
MDL >> 1 sec burn >> 5.00 damage = 5.00 dam per sec.


Now let´s have a look at the heat numbers:
C-ER-LL >> 2 sec burn >> 9 heat >> 4,5 heat per sec.
C-MDL >> 1,3 sec burn >> 5 heat >> 3,846 heat per sec

ER-LL >> 1 sec burn >> 8 heat >> 8.00 heat per sec.
MDL >> 1 sec burn >> 4 heat >> 4.00 heat per sec.

So what´s not broken please?!

[Jonny Taco]

Budor, on 22 August 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

It was too good. What would you want them to do instead, increase heat more or cut the range?

That's pretty much exactly what people have been clamoring about since the nerf.

[Reitrix]

Hillbillycrow, on 22 August 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Reitrix, if I wanted I could still do "significant" damage to you at 1000k so the nerf didn't do a damn thing but make them worse at every other range. How often does anyone get 1k shots anyway? On Alpine? Maybe?

Also a 1/2 a second is a significant amount of twitch time, particularly when hill fighting or brawling. I assume by your last post you die from cores most frequently.

My Lights get legged. My Mediums get legged. Depends on my heavy really. my Twolf usually goes through both STs, my Dire Wolf oddly is a mixed bag, I've been legged, CT only, both STs, 1 ST then CT. Really depends on how the game played out.

[Dhatman]

AncillaLupus, on 22 August 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

So what´s not broken please?!

You forgot range value...
ER-LL >> 1 sec burn >> 6,2 damage on range 890 = 6,2 dam per sec.

MDL >> 1 sec burn >> 1,66 damage on range 470 = 1,66 dam per sec

and it still missing tonnage value...

[Ace Selin]

Burn time is fine, they are such brutal weapons as they are.

[STEF_]

Nobody use 2 seconds. Unless that mechwarrior that wants to receive 2gauss+ppc in his face.
Er-LL are ridiculous now.

[AncillaLupus]

Dhatman, on 22 August 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

You forgot range value...
ER-LL >> 1 sec burn >> 6,2 damage on range 890 = 6,2 dam per sec.

MDL >> 1 sec burn >> 1,66 damage on range 470 = 1,66 dam per sec

and it still missing tonnage value...

Honestly now ... which matches atm. are really range sniper matches?
99% of all (PUG) games are brawl or LRM spamming anyways.
So range is not the matter anymore.

Besides... even as C-ER-LL was still 1,5 sec burn... as good as no match was fought at ranges over 600m anyways.
That was ages ago, as PPC / Gauss sniping was fashion.

Range weapons are, if build in at all, only used for gap closing while you approach your enemy.
Just look at current meta loadouts. DPS > Alpha > Range.

Edited by AncillaLupus, 22 August 2014 - 05:45 AM.