113 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Reitrix, on 26 August 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

So what you're saying is, the Summoner is the Clan Dragon?

In many ways, this is apt. The Summoner does have much, MUCH better hitboxes than the Dragon, mind you - in fact, I'd go so far as to say it has substantially better hitboxes than the Timberwolf as well.

However, the Summoner's issues lie in the mechlab more than the battlefield. It's sort of like taking an IS stock mech, and only half optimizing it because you ran out of cbills half way through. You know it could be so much better, if you could only finish optimizing it, but alas, you can't.

The result is a strange mech. It should be an awesome mech, but it's not. If you could remove some JJ's, add Endosteel, it'd be a beast. Or add a couple hardpoints, so it could better utilize it's limited free tonnage using multiple smaller weapons. But no, you've got lots of open crits, precious little free tonnage, and very limited hardpoints. It's strange.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 26 August 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

In many ways, this is apt. The Summoner does have much, MUCH better hitboxes than the Dragon, mind you - in fact, I'd go so far as to say it has substantially better hitboxes than the Timberwolf as well.

However, the Summoner's issues lie in the mechlab more than the battlefield. It's sort of like taking an IS stock mech, and only half optimizing it because you ran out of cbills half way through. You know it could be so much better, if you could only finish optimizing it, but alas, you can't.

The result is a strange mech. It should be an awesome mech, but it's not. If you could remove some JJ's, add Endosteel, it'd be a beast. Or add a couple hardpoints, so it could better utilize it's limited free tonnage using multiple smaller weapons. But no, you've got lots of open crits, precious little free tonnage, and very limited hardpoints. It's strange.

and yet, I still like it better than VanillaWolves.

But yes, all valid points.

[Wintersdark]

MischiefSC, on 26 August 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

The Summoner just... feels like it was made IS style - which is to say intentionally gimped in design to make it inferior.

It does absolutely feel like it was deliberately kneecapped along the way. I'm sure it wasn't deliberate so much as an artifact of how MWO's clan systems/designs interact, but the result certainly does end up looking like it was intentionally gimped.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 August 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

and yet, I still like it better than VanillaWolves.

But yes, all valid points.

I ditched mine. My original A'La Carte pack had Summoners, Timberwolves, Direwolves, and Warhawks. After the clan test weekend, I ditched my Summoners (and got Stormcrows and Novas instead).

I regret this, sort of.

Not getting the Stormcrows and Novas - they are flat out awesome rides. But... I don't really like my Timberwolves. Oh, they're great mechs. But in many ways, it's like my Shadowhawks. They're awesome mechs. Lots of great build options. I do really well in them. But I don't really enjoy piloting either.

Not because I want a challenge, or because I don't like piloting the popular mech (I don't give two s**ts how popular a mech is) but for some strange reason neither really... I dunno. They just don't tweak my "This mech is FUN!" buttons.

I wish I didn't ditch my Summoners, just to have an alternative Clan heavy to play. I'll probably rebuy them with cbills over the next while.

But yeah... it's really wierd. I should love Timberwolves. I loved my Dragons, and really enjoy playing fast heavies in a striker role, something the Timberwolf excels at. But.. I dunno. I'm just not very happy with them, and they're easily my least played Clan mechs, even behind my Warhawks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 26 August 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

I ditched mine. My original A'La Carte pack had Summoners, Timberwolves, Direwolves, and Warhawks. After the clan test weekend, I ditched my Summoners (and got Stormcrows and Novas instead).

I regret this, sort of.

Not getting the Stormcrows and Novas - they are flat out awesome rides. But... I don't really like my Timberwolves. Oh, they're great mechs. But in many ways, it's like my Shadowhawks. They're awesome mechs. Lots of great build options. I do really well in them. But I don't really enjoy piloting either.

Not because I want a challenge, or because I don't like piloting the popular mech (I don't give two s**ts how popular a mech is) but for some strange reason neither really... I dunno. They just don't tweak my "This mech is FUN!" buttons.

I wish I didn't ditch my Summoners, just to have an alternative Clan heavy to play. I'll probably rebuy them with cbills over the next while.

But yeah... it's really wierd. I should love Timberwolves. I loved my Dragons, and really enjoy playing fast heavies in a striker role, something the Timberwolf excels at. But.. I dunno. I'm just not very happy with them, and they're easily my least played Clan mechs, even behind my Warhawks.

Well, lets face it, at least part of that has to be how stupid OP the TWolf managed to end up being. With it's stats, it should be like a fast Direwolf, lots of guns, straightline speed, but not very agile to compensate. But when you know a Mech is broken, IMO, it's hard to really have "fun" in it.

And only the most delusional will deny the TWolf is broken. Most Clan Mechs, really are not. But the TWolf is the perfect storm.

Mister Blastman, on 26 August 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

I somehow make the Summoner work. Maybe it is because I don't have a Timberwolf. Who knows. The Summoner is my first c-bill (well, first clan 'mech period) clan 'mech and damnit, I'm going to like it no matter what.

Screenshots don't lie. I only brawl with it, too...

crappy mech dude...only did 889 damage against my team last match...sandbagging...you know it woulda been like....1800 damage if you hadn't handicapped your team and brought a TeenWolf.

[Rehooja]

Please remember the legendary quote:

"For balance, corerule ignore!"

Edited by Vin Reho, 26 August 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[Haxburch]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 August 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Summoner

Because TWolf bores me.   Will run it with my Team as needed.  BUT, prefer Summoner.   I am a Medium Jock, and it moves a Shadowhawk.  Firepower is limited, but to me, that just forces creativity.  Twolf....meh.   Let the MetaLords have it.   I would rather go my own way, and actually have fun, then conform to what the Forums say I should run.

Mainly for the same reasons. Summoner is a bigger challenge and more fun. For the same reasons, I also love the Awesome.

[El Bandito]

El Bandito, on 26 August 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

Summoner, because it is my mission in life to master the mech and laugh at those who had belittled it.

Mister Blastman, on 26 August 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

I somehow make the Summoner work. Maybe it is because I don't have a Timberwolf. Who knows. The Summoner is my first c-bill (well, first clan 'mech period) clan 'mech and damnit, I'm going to like it no matter what. Screenshots don't lie. I only brawl with it, too...

Curse you, Blastman! There goes my mission in life. I was planning to brawl with it too.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 August 2014 - 10:16 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Timber is a better mech until they nerf it

Edited by Monkey Lover, 26 August 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Carrie Harder]

Monkey Lover, on 26 August 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Timber is a better mech until they nerf it

The Nerfinator is coming.

He will make the Victor nerfs look like Locust agility by the time he's done.

He will make the Mad Cat twist and turn not just like a 100 ton mech like the Victor, but like a 150 ton mech. The Omega.

^^This is what Mad Cats will maneuver like in the future.

And just like the Victor nerfs, it won't solve the core issues that caused the respective chassis to be favored in the first place...

And then I will have a sad, and be reminded of the 2 LL + 2 UAC/5 Victor that Paul took away from me (used a similar build on the MC for a bit).


Never forget.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 26 August 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Scorch97]

Although I own both frames, I'd like to weigh in and see if my experiences and opinions concur with anyone elses.

For me, the Timberwolf is sturdy and reliable at virtually any range in the 'Prime' Configuration and requires relatively no tweaking. I have only dumped the C-LRM20s for a set of C-LRM15s for better ammo conservation and used the freed up tonnage to install Mk. I Targeting Computer and an additional pair of Double Heat Sinks for the Arm Lasers. No complaints to date and experimentation is relatively painless but boring.

On the Summoner, the Prime Configuration is despairingly limited and practically forces you to swap out for varrying omnipods whereas doing so with the Timberwolf is more a matter of personal preference rather than one of necessity. Thus far, I have yet to get a Summoner to work as a decent 'Mid-fielder' 'Mech without suffering from ammo, heat, or weight limitations since I tend to max armor first.

For me, the Summoner seems to work best at either the 'Forward' position (at the head of the team) or the 'Defender' position (at the back of the line). So far, I've only been able to get the Summoner to work remarkably well as a LRM-streaming missile boat (Info below) or as a pure direct fire 'Mech. Take into consideration that this all took a great deal of time, patience, and a sizable amount of C-Bills to accomplish. Sadly, one of the only redeeming features for me on the Summoner are the Jump Jets crammed into it. Sadly, this note is even tarnished by the fact that they are hard-wired into the 'Mech and cannot be removed but for me, that only eggs me on.

Honestly, although I like both 'Mechs, I appriciate the unique challenge the Summoner gave me and I'm still surprising myself when I refuse to turn on the 'Easy Mode' option. Don't get me wrong, the Timberwolf alone is a venerable and worthy 'Mech in many respects and I do use it when I want to be swimming in C-Bills for the afternoon but I love a good challenge and when, I am taking a break from using my Adder, the Summoner has not let me down in that regard yet.

Anyone else feel this way?

(Info here - Summoner Hailstorm )

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 26 August 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

I somehow make the Summoner work. Maybe it is because I don't have a Timberwolf. Who knows. The Summoner is my first c-bill (well, first clan 'mech period) clan 'mech and damnit, I'm going to like it no matter what.

Screenshots don't lie. I only brawl with it, too...

not quite on your level...but despite being bleary eyed exhausted, couldn't sleep, so pulled out a "terribad" build I threw together on my Summoner Prime for the last PTS......

or in context

(thats me, 5th from the top..in my super secret alt acct)

(terribad being it really should be terribad............... 2 MPL, 1 LB-10x and 1 SSRM6.....tired it with an aSRM6, and actually avg 200 damage higher with the ssrm.... guessing while my accuracy with SRMs are decent, having ALL the missiles hit helps.)

So, have not broke 1000 damage in my Summoners yet, but have dozens of matches similar to this, which is good enough for now, for me. Mind you I have multiple 1000 damage matches in my Timberwolves and Warhawks, and finally got 1 in my DireWolf (usually just kill stuff dead with little extra damage....it's a MetaWhale... had bad aim that match and shot stuff more than normal)...so am I saying it is as good as a TWolf? Of course not.

But in the right hands (basically, a dedicated Medium Jock) it works pretty dang well, an dis hardly a DoA "BAD" Mech. And I find it a heck of a lot more fun, and satisfying to do well in than in my Timberwolf, which feels like I am playing with Training Wheels on....because it IS a stupidly broken, OP Mech than any idiot should be able to do well in.

I guess since my enjoyment in life is not predicated by how much imaginary virtual epeen I can brag about, it makes it a lot easier for me to just actually...IDK, have fun in the game?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 August 2014 - 11:45 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Maybe this video will help you guys decide which one is better:


2 Timberwolves vs 2 Summoners
-Summoners win.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darth Futuza, on 27 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Maybe this video will help you guys decide which one is better:


2 Timberwolves vs 2 Summoners
-Summoners win.

and it was between the Tesla Pods of Virtual World Entertainment, and this, that my love of Summoners was nurtured.

[Koniving]

Prosperity Park, on 26 August 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Okay, folks...

If you have piloted both Summoner and Timberwolf Mechs, could you please say which is better for you, and why? When I mean "Why" I don't mean "It's better because I kill more" but rather "it's better because XXXX weapons/armor does this, and YYYYY something does that, which results in me killing/winning more"


I'd like to know how things are from those who piloted them. I haven't piloted them, but I have seen them on the field, and I think [REDACTED]. However, that's unimportant, because I want to know from the mouths of those who have Piloted them.

We value your opinion, and your input is greatly appreciated. Thank you for working with Prosperity Park information services. Have a great day :-)

Summoners and Timber Wolves, once you add an equal number of JJs to both and maximum armor, have less than 5 tons of available difference with the Timber Wolf being more limited due to having so many slots consumed.

That said, Timber Wolf also has more hardpoint options, something the Summoner severely lacks.

But what really decides it for me... is the hitboxes.

The Summoner has a basic, fair hitbox that is identical to the Awesome in almost every way in regards to the torsos.

The Timber Wolf has GIGANTIC GARGANTUAN hitboxes for the front, and miniscule flat panels for the rear. As a result, 2 rear, all the rest on the front... and you're now nearly invincible with more armor on the front than most 80 ton Victors would even be able to dream of....due to having to put 14 armor on the back.

What's really ironic is when a player that isn't exploiting the hitboxes makes a Timber Wolf with 14 armor on the rear... the Timber Wolf is so easily destroyed you'd call for buffs. But when you reduce the rear armor to 2, you can brawl in the middle of 8 people and still have no damage on your back while feeling incredibly powerful.

That's why I choose the Timber Wolf. Broken, risk-free rear torso hitboxes. Ain't nothing gonna touch them in an active battle. Now take those hitboxes and add poptarting...and was it any wonder these things replaced Victors?

(Timber Wolf front CT, 90. Victor front CT at best with high risk, 86. Timber Wolf front ST, 62 with no risk of a backshot death. Victor front ST, 54 and this is at high risk of backshot death).

(Aside from the Dire Wolf, this is true of all the "Great" Clan mechs, the creme dé la crop. Stormcrow is a huge offender of this; add the animation it has for speed-tweak running and it spreads laser beams across 5 different 'hitbox' sections, rendering them nearly useless due to spread; rear hitboxes can only be hit from directly behind and because it's nearly impossible for someone to get back there it's outclassing 70 ton IS mechs in frontal armor without risk).

Edited by Koniving, 28 August 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Darth Futuza]

Koniving, on 27 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

That's why I choose the Timber Wolf. Broken, risk-free rear torso hitboxes.

Curse that rear hitbox I keep trying to back core it with Jenners and it is so damn hard to hit.

[Alistair Winter]

I have never played the T-wolf, I only got to try the Summoner during Public Test. So I can only compare it to the IS mechs. For me, the issue was just lack of firepower and very poor jump jets. I was hoping the jump jets would be good enough to make up for the lack of firepower, somehow. But not even close.

7 tons less of weapons, heatsinks and equipment, if you don't want jump jets. If you do want jump jets, you at least have the choice of deciding how many. I really don't understand why they didn't let the players decide how many JJ's to put on the Summoner. Was it too good in playtesting? Was the Summoner actually better than the T-Wolf, which would be bad for business? I don't get it.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 August 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Cool. THAT may be valid.
The arrogant d-bag assertion I responded to, was not.

I urge you to reconsider your hostile tone and your appraisal of both his validity and his arrogance.

[Sirius Drake]

Summoner.
If you ever finished a match in a stock prime without arms and out of LRM ammo you will love this bad copy of a heavy mech.

[SixstringSamurai]

Because 7 lasers.

[John80sk]

Koniving, on 27 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Summoners and Timber Wolves, once you add an equal number of JJs to both and maximum armor, have less than 5 tons of available difference with the Timber Wolf being more limited due to having so many slots consumed.

That said, Timber Wolf also has more hardpoint options, something the Summoner severely lacks.

But what really decides it for me... is the hitboxes.

The Summoner has a basic, fair hitbox that is identical to the Awesome in almost every way in regards to the torsos.

The Timber Wolf has GIGANTIC GARGANTUAN hitboxes for the front, and miniscule flat panels for the rear. As a result, 2 rear, all the rest on the front... and you're now nearly invincible with more armor on the front than most 80 ton Victors would even be able to dream of....due to having to put 14 armor on the back.

What's really ironic is when a player that isn't exploiting the hitboxes makes a Timber Wolf with 14 armor on the rear... the Timber Wolf is so easily destroyed you'd call for buffs. But when you reduce the rear armor to 2, you can brawl in the middle of 8 people and still have no damage on your back while feeling incredibly powerful.

That's why I choose the Timber Wolf. Broken, risk-free rear torso hitboxes. Ain't nothing gonna touch them in an active battle. Now take those hitboxes and add poptarting...and was it any wonder these things replaced Victors?

(Timber Wolf front CT, 90. Victor front CT at best with high risk, 86. Timber Wolf front ST, 62 with no risk of a backshot death. Victor front ST, 54 and this is at high risk of backshot death).

(Aside from the Dire Wolf, this is true of all the "Great" Clan mechs, the creme dé la crop. Stormcrow is a huge offender of this; add the animation it has for speed-tweak running and it spreads laser beams across 5 different 'hitbox' sections, rendering them nearly useless due to spread; rear hitboxes can only be hit from directly behind and because it's nearly impossible for someone to get back there it's outclassing 70 ton IS mechs in frontal armor without risk).

Er, pretty sure just about any good Victor pilot rocks 10 or less on the back.

The thing that makes the Timberwolf so tanky is damage transference, not a couple more armor points.