49 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

RavenKnight86, on 27 August 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

So instead you lose 4 potential members to ROFLstomps?

If not losing means having to draw ambigous lines in the sand, then yes. This is game where newcomers are in a sense thrown in front of the wolves, there is no denying that. The jump after the first 25 matches in PUG hell, being thrown into regular PUG hell, is very drastic and can add an additional level to the frustration one has to suffer through. Dropping in a group means facing higher level of coordination, but also being able to observe higher level of play.

The only thing we can do is shape them a path they can traverse to learn to adapt to this environment. None of us can force them to take it, but all of us are aware that there is nothing other we can do but offering out help and advice. I do not pity someone who feels overwhelmed by their first experience, as I've been through the very same gauntlet.

[Kjudoon]

I go back to my 3 queue solution.

Solo queue
Lance Queue (opt in solos plus groups of 2-4 like we used to have)
Company Queue (Opt in 4man and 5+ with 8+ groups able to drop short against equal opponents.)

[John1352]

Get your friends on one of the main TS servers and join up with a group of 7 (if you have 5). Odds are, the rest of the group will be at least somewhat able to carry you all. (you should let them know about the new guys though) All 12 on teamspeak is a big advantage provided you don't talk over the top of each other.

[IraqiWalker]

Pika, on 27 August 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

So I'm posting this in here because it relates to a few new player's experience over the last day or two.

I somehow managed to convince a few friends to download the game and check it out! Initial response was positive, though with the majority being young students there was the usual complaints about the cost, but we all know how that plays out so I won't go into it here.

Anyways after they get their 25 games under their belts they ask for a group game, and so I warn them what it'll be like but all the same they insist, so we jump into games together.

Never have I seen enthusiasm dashed so quickly. It went from "Hey this is cool!" to "We've lost 8 games in a row. This sucks." Now I get I warned them and tried to explain that you go against groups, I get they're all brand new and no matter the rest of the team, they can't really carry so many newer players, and you know, they accepted this, but also I think they were not expecting, as a group of 5, to go up against a pre-made group of 12 same guild Clan Mechs all moving as a single blob.

No matter what I said it felt like the damage was done. Will there ever be a method of queuing in sizes introduced? If I want to play with one other friend should it be fair that I run the risk of running into 12 guys all on voice comms?

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I understand your pain OP, we've been through this baptism by fire in more ways than one.

My advice is to NOT drop with more than 2 players in the pre-made.

Also, since they are new to the game. Get them into Stock Mech Mondays. No this isn't advertising the event. Running stock mechs means they will be dealing with slower mechs anyways, allowing them to better learn how to aim, and how to work with the game. Also, since it's a private drop, they don't have to worry about flaming, or bad behavior. Considering they are new, they should start doing this after they have purchased their first mech. (Tech 2 room allows for customized mechs in the matches, but stick to tech 1 for a bit, until you get more used to it.).

Other than that, your friends should be doing quite a few solo drops to get used to the game some more.

RavenKnight86, on 27 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Wow I see way too many replies that are basically "LOL tough, get on comms and in bigger groups" What the OP is saying is he has a group of friends that are relatively new to the game that he decides to show the ropes to and his 5 man group is going up against very organized groups. He (or she) is making a point that this community (which I believe many hardcore community members will say is a very niche and small community) is losing about 4 possible new members due to continue ROFLstomps. If this game is to have any long term success there needs to be a way for new players to group in various sizes and play in groups of 5+ without running into the competitive teams who continually stomp them. As is 5 friends decide to download this game, group up, run into these organized teams and get to be cannon fodder. If you were on that side of things would you continue to play this game or quit?

Yes, this game is very tough, and there is sadly no real way of making it easier. My opinion, is don't go up in numbers, with new players 2 is the most you want playing in a premade. That way you can get drops in the solo queue, where the average skill is a bit lower, but the difficulty is still there. After a while, try getting back into groups of 2+.

Kjudoon, on 27 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

I go back to my 3 queue solution.

Solo queue
Lance Queue (opt in solos plus groups of 2-4 like we used to have)
Company Queue (Opt in 4man and 5+ with 8+ groups able to drop short against equal opponents.)

Then we go back to square one, where a 4 man could roll a team, and solo droppers keep complaining about it, yet again.

John1352, on 27 August 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

Get your friends on one of the main TS servers and join up with a group of 7 (if you have 5). Odds are, the rest of the group will be at least somewhat able to carry you all. (you should let them know about the new guys though) All 12 on teamspeak is a big advantage provided you don't talk over the top of each other.

Bad idea. With new players you want to go down in numbers. If they get am ad-hoc full 12 man going, they will be running into genuine 12 mans that will just demolish them non-stop. If this experience is making them hesitant, going into 12s will definitely make them them quit the game right now.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

[color=#959595]Then we go back to square one, where a 4 man could roll a team, and solo droppers keep complaining about it, yet again.[/color]

Two words I deliberately include: Opt in

The solo queue is necessary for people who cannot handle or desire to play well with others who have teamspeak.
The large group queue is necessary for those who want to practice in a team or just a large group of friends.
The small group queue is necessary for those who want to play with friends but don't want to be competitive or be alone.

The Solo player who isn't bothered by TS playing small groups can opt in to the Lance queue if they want.
The 4man team that thinks they can carry against bigger units even if stuck with a bad group of 8 can do so as well.

Quote

[color=#959595]Bad idea. With new players you want to go down in numbers. If they get am ad-hoc full 12 man going, they will be running into genuine 12 mans that will just demolish them non-stop. If this experience is making them hesitant, going into 12s will definitely make them them quit the game right now. [/color]

You nail it. Precisely why the group queue is broken, combined with elo averaging mismatches and now I've learned about 'elo inflation' in the group queue that is REALLY not working as intended.

[SethAbercromby]

IraqiWalker, on 27 August 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

Bad idea. With new players you want to go down in numbers. If they get am ad-hoc full 12 man going, they will be running into genuine 12 mans that will just demolish them non-stop. If this experience is making them hesitant, going into 12s will definitely make them them quit the game right now.

There is nothing speperating 12-mans from 2-mans but wishful thinking. If you run in a 2-man your chance of encountering a 12-man is exactly the same as if running in a 12-man yourself. That's why going up in numbers is always advisable as it doesn't change the status quo, but helps in processing informaton and coordination within your group as more people are linked over VOIP.

[Darth Futuza]

Pika, on 27 August 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

the usual complaints about the cost,

...Cost? What costs? Its free to play.

[SethAbercromby]

Kjudoon, on 27 August 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Two words I deliberately include: Opt in

The solo queue is necessary for people who cannot handle or desire to play well with others who have teamspeak.
The large group queue is necessary for those who want to practice in a team or just a large group of friends.
The small group queue is necessary for those who want to play with friends but don't want to be competitive or be alone.

As I've already said, one needs to be very careful when they decide to fragment the playerbase, as we are not that many active players. If we had at least 15.000-30.000 people playing online at any given time, it would still be pretty bad, but it would be somewhat reasonable then, but I feel there is a reason PGI doesn't like to share its user metrics.

Your solution might seem reasonable to you, but it would likely just create one of multiple extreme cases:
- Lance queue almost exclusively inhabited by groups as solo players refuse to drop with them, as they feel at an unfair disadvantage, the entire reason why we now have a solo-only queue.
- Group queue becomes barren wasteland as almost everyone opts into Lance queue, serving as a mirror to the 8v8 and 12v12 matching queues of days past.
- Group queue turns wasteland plus the migration of a considerable amount of veteran players moving to the lance queue, leaving it as the only mode to get reliable and enjoyable matching.

[Kjudoon]

You make a good case for creating a poll.

If given the choice, is the 5+ ability really what the community wanted, or only a small group of players so they wouldn't keep seeing the same people over and over again and have difficulty finding opponents in the 12man queue?

[Kjudoon]

Okay, I wanted to start a poll, but evidently don't have the ability to do so.

[IraqiWalker]

Kjudoon, on 27 August 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Two words I deliberately include: Opt in

The solo queue is necessary for people who cannot handle or desire to play well with others who have teamspeak.
The large group queue is necessary for those who want to practice in a team or just a large group of friends.
The small group queue is necessary for those who want to play with friends but don't want to be competitive or be alone.

The Solo player who isn't bothered by TS playing small groups can opt in to the Lance queue if they want.
The 4man team that thinks they can carry against bigger units even if stuck with a bad group of 8 can do so as well.

The problem is all the 4 mans that will just jump into the solo queue, since it's easier hunting grounds for them, and we're back to all the complaints that created this new system.

SethAbercromby, on 27 August 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

There is nothing speperating 12-mans from 2-mans but wishful thinking. If you run in a 2-man your chance of encountering a 12-man is exactly the same as if running in a 12-man yourself. That's why going up in numbers is always advisable as it doesn't change the status quo, but helps in processing informaton and coordination within your group as more people are linked over VOIP.

Maybe, but you have a chance of joining solo queue matches. Which is impossible as soon as your group becomes 3+. As 3+ is only group queue.

Plus, if you are in a 2 man, and end up in the group queue, your best odds are landing in the 10 line. Where it's a 10+2 vs. 10+2 or 12. Coordination in those scenarios is great. Whearas in regular PuGs communication is non-existent, and group queue is loaded with faux-competitive players, and groups that might clash with one another. They are still very coordinated, which is deadly, but it's also hard for new players to get into, since everyone is expecting you to know exactly what you're doing.

Hence why solo and 2 man drops are the best for teaching new players. Which is ridiculous. If PGI would let us do 1v1s in private matches easily, I'd be using them to train new players a lot. Instead of having to rely on having someone else with premium time active to do training sessions.

Kjudoon, on 28 August 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

You make a good case for creating a poll.

If given the choice, is the 5+ ability really what the community wanted, or only a small group of players so they wouldn't keep seeing the same people over and over again and have difficulty finding opponents in the 12man queue?

The majority opinion was "we want 5+ groups". The problem is that 99.99999999% of them never expected these problems to happen. Mostly due to lack of foresight.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

The majority opinion was "we want 5+ groups". The problem is that 99.99999999% of them never expected these problems to happen. Mostly due to lack of foresight.

Actually I wouldn't have put the 'we want the 5+" to be that high, but it was a loud group. I remember not caring much one way or another. What you're 101% right on is nobody expected the unintended consequences OR the elimination of the small group queue. That's where the failure came about by lack of foresight from the player community AND PGI.

Now, they need to fix it by returning what they took in addition to keeping the Solo only queue and 5+ queue. Of course, eliminating elo inflation and fix group averaging is another fix they could do. But I don't think the technical skill or player population exists to make it work.

[DeathlyEyes]

I would join a unit. Seriously join a unit. Get your friends together and find a unit to help you get better working together. That's pretty much the only way to do it.

[SethAbercromby]

IraqiWalker, on 28 August 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Maybe, but you have a chance of joining solo queue matches. Which is impossible as soon as your group becomes 3+. As 3+ is only group queue.
[/qupte]
You can't joint into solo at all. When you're dropping in a group, you are in the group queue. No exceptions.

Plus, if you are in a 2 man, and end up in the group queue, your best odds are landing in the 10 line. Where it's a 10+2 vs. 10+2 or 12.

Let me spell it out for you. The. Matchmaker. Does. Not. Sperate. By. Numbers.

Every and any groupsize is matched against each other as equal. If you get a 10-man, you might just as well be matched against what I descrbed previously, 6/4/2. The only consistency is that the MM appears to try to match the teams in as few groups as possible. Higher group numbers get matching priority, as only minor aditions have to be made. Through that it maybe is not unlikely to get a 10+2 v 10+2/12 running when enough of these groups are available, but that is not something the matchmaker actively tries to promote.

[IraqiWalker]

SethAbercromby, on 28 August 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Let me spell it out for you. The. Matchmaker. Does. Not. Sperate. By. Numbers.

Every and any groupsize is matched against each other as equal. If you get a 10-man, you might just as well be matched against what I descrbed previously, 6/4/2. The only consistency is that the MM appears to try to match the teams in as few groups as possible. Higher group numbers get matching priority, as only minor aditions have to be made. Through that it maybe is not unlikely to get a 10+2 v 10+2/12 running when enough of these groups are available, but that is not something the matchmaker actively tries to promote.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing anymore.

The Matchmaker explicitly stated, allows 2 mans to be in both solo queue, and group queue.

[dragnier1]

DeathlyEyes, on 28 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I would join a unit. Seriously join a unit. Get your friends together and find a unit to help you get better working together. That's pretty much the only way to do it.

I think this might be the best way if they wanna play with their friends. I think some units welcome others to join them, even if temporary.

[IraqiWalker]

dragnier1, on 30 August 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

I think this might be the best way if they wanna play with their friends. I think some units welcome others to join them, even if temporary.

Plenty of units have no problems with people dropping with them without being members of the unit. I know that HHoD does it regularly (pretty much all of the Davion units I know of have no problems with other people dropping with them), and I can also attest to the Death's Hand Brigade when they welcomed me for their private drop night a few months back.

[TercieI]

Kjudoon, on 27 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

I go back to my 3 queue solution.

Solo queue
Lance Queue (opt in solos plus groups of 2-4 like we used to have)
Company Queue (Opt in 4man and 5+ with 8+ groups able to drop short against equal opponents.)

I will like this every time you post it, but continue to note that solos should be able to opt-in everywhere. It would make group queue work better and provide a better solo experience for capable players.

Edited by Terciel1976, 30 August 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[SVK Puskin]

Chadamir Fitzkrieg, on 27 August 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

This is something I've been advocating for a very long time. Why can't we have 4v4 or 8v8? not just 12 v 12 every damn game. It makes for a very unfriendly atmosphere for new players. If ELO actually had an impact on who plays in the game then you'd be able to have 4v4 newb games. Let them learn the ropes without being slaughtered time and time again by people like me who have more than a thousand hours put into this stupid game. The developers make this game just so difficult for new players to join and enjoy,

This is possible but unfortunately only in private match.

[n r g]

Pika, on 27 August 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

So I'm posting this in here because it relates to a few new player's experience over the last day or two.

I somehow managed to convince a few friends to download the game and check it out! Initial response was positive, though with the majority being young students there was the usual complaints about the cost, but we all know how that plays out so I won't go into it here.

Anyways after they get their 25 games under their belts they ask for a group game, and so I warn them what it'll be like but all the same they insist, so we jump into games together.

Never have I seen enthusiasm dashed so quickly. It went from "Hey this is cool!" to "We've lost 8 games in a row. This sucks." Now I get I warned them and tried to explain that you go against groups, I get they're all brand new and no matter the rest of the team, they can't really carry so many newer players, and you know, they accepted this, but also I think they were not expecting, as a group of 5, to go up against a pre-made group of 12 same guild Clan Mechs all moving as a single blob.

No matter what I said it felt like the damage was done. Will there ever be a method of queuing in sizes introduced? If I want to play with one other friend should it be fair that I run the risk of running into 12 guys all on voice comms?

Thanks for the feedback guys!

MechWarrior can be a game with an odd learning curve. I remember when I first started years ago, It was incredibly tough because I had almost no knowledge of FPS gaming and everyone and I MEAN everyone was using a joystick back then.

Only a handful of Quake/UT players who were bored with straight up FPS were coming to MechWarrior 4 and just ****** everyone so hard with ASWD mouse /keyboard setups.

I finally got around and met up some "elite" players, switched peripheral setup and began mastering the fundamentals of chassis/torso control, leading the target with projectiles, working on map awareness/positioning.

I would focus on trying to get the most efficient/powerful builds as possible at this time, very high alpha, very high armor, fast builds that can give you some comfort while your friends master their skills.

I would also try get a bigger group going via comstar so even if you run against a group of 12 the loss may not be so bad.

Like I said, I think if everyone has their mouse/kb setup properly, their ingame video settings (atleast 60fps) and really take some time and make some GREAT (meta?) builds for either IS /clan lights/meds/heavy/ass, it will make everything smoother.