84 replies to this topic

[Mothykins]

Little tid-bit; The Nova Prime always was a ******* for heat management, often noted as "capable of producing almost twice as much heat as it can dissipate."

Pretty much, all I really got out of this was whining, with no actual constructive suggestions to make it otherwise.

Edited by Cavale, 30 August 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FDJustin, on 30 August 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

It doesn't feel good to have your stuff nerfed, whether your bought it for p2w or not. There are two options, I guess, and people are split on what they want.
One side wants enhanced IS equipment instead of clan nerfs.
The other wants clan nerfs instead of enhanced IS equipment.

Obviously, the solution is to advance the timeline to 3060-ish and then we can give the IS enhanced weapons without breaking the lore.

Clans get to stay powerful, IS gets to stay awesome, everybody wins.

[Cyborne Elemental]

@op
You guys have 3 months to pretty much rake in the cbills and boost your stats and ELO that whole time, stompy stompy, and now that some well needed balance adjustments come, so do the tears.

For those players that actually stayed around to be slaughtered because they either couldn't afford to dump $ into a free game, or chose not to because of one reason or another, this is sweet justice.

You payed to win, you got what you payed for, and now we'll maybe see some balance return to the game.

And yes, I bought 1 Summoner because I couldn't help it.

Edited by Mister D, 30 August 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Belkor]

Calamus, on 30 August 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Bishop, what are you talking about, the Timberwolf is garbage; bad for the whole bloody game? It's no more unbalanced than the Nova, the Banshee, or the Boom Jager

You should know better. IS mechs with good pilots take down Clan mechs on the field all the time. There is nothing wrong with the balance of clan/IS. There is a HUGE unbalance of less skilled gamers with loud voices and a lot of forum time.

Who are you trying to kid? One look at the Timber Wolf's stats proves you wrong. It has no peer at its weight. No even the top IS assault could outdamage it during the IS vs Clan tourney.

[CocoaJin]

[Ahja]

So poster you stood on a railroad track and you are Peeved Off that that you got it by a train. Did you ever hear the one about the scorpion and the frog? Well PGI is just a scorpion.

[Legion]

Aresye, on 30 August 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

My only fear surrounding Clan nerfs is that the game will once again return to the state it was pre-Clans:

- A few good mechs. A handful of useful weapons, and a whole lotta crap.

The PPC/AC5 meta that was king for so long wasn't king because of jump jets. It was king because:
- Lasers sucked and forced you to expose yourself for too long.
- Lasers sucked because of ghost heat.
- Missiles sucked because of all the hard counters.
- SRMs sucked because of hit detection (was finally fixed).
- ERPPCs sucked because of both heat and ghost heat.
- ACs sucked because they were hit with nerfs and ghost heat.
- Gauss sucked because of the charge mechanic.

Then the Clans came out, and woah! The game was actually fun! Why?
- Lasers actually did something.
- SRMs actually did something.
- ACs were actually useful.

The most vocal crowd I see on the forum when it comes to things being nerfed isn't the Clan owners. It's LRM players, and I can actually understand that. They've been nerfed countless times with speed changes, hard counters, AMS upgrades, radar dep, etc.

But what about us laser players? Why? Dear god why?! Why is it such a game breaking problem to finally have lasers that are effective? We're not locking on to you like missiles and having the game automatically track our lasers. We're not putting out instantaneous FLD damage that you can't torso twist to spread and must absorb in a single location.

No. All we're using is one of the few weapon systems that actually takes some semblance of skill to use, and are actually rewarded for having smooth, precise aim. Why are we punishing players that can actually aim and pilot their mechs, yet give in to the demands of players that can't seem to do anything better than to stand still in the open?

Here's a little secret: I face the same weapons.

Why do I not have a problem with laser boats? Because I torso twist. I MOVE! I expose myself for fractions of a second and cause the enemy to lose 3/4 of their potential damage to the cover I'm behind.

The majority of the players in this game don't know how to play this game. They don't move. They can't aim. They find a hill to stand still and expose their upper torso while attempting to take pot shots with weapons way beyond their effective range. Or they charge into my entire team single file like lemmings.

completely agree with this I have not used my clan mechs in prob 3 weeks and I don't miss them either. IS mechs are perfectly usable and I think they are more fun than clan mechs. Its always hilarious when people scream clans op when I typically out damage them no problem in my Ciada or my Jester or my Firebrand. I do kind of feel like I wasted my $250 though but at least I didn't waste $500 like I was looking at doing.

Edited by Legion, 30 August 2014 - 10:54 PM.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Sorry to hear that, but if you are trying to claim the TW isn't broken with a straight face, you may need to see a therapist, my friend.

Overpowered? Yes
With no identifiable drawbacks? Yes
Broken? Ehh...not really.

Yes, the TW needs adjusting to bring it in line with other mechs. Most notably it needs a main drawback, which can easily be done by implementing a heat and/or speed penalty for losing a side torso. The TW has easy to hit side torsos, so this would actually give it a decent disadvantage. It may need a small nerf (keyword: small) to its agility, but that should be a last resort as those agility nerfs go against the very rules PGI established for the game in terms of engine performance.

So while the TW is indeed OP and is vastly superior to any other heavies (and some assaults), it isn't indestructible. In the hands of a good player it can be quite devastating, but it isn't so OP that your average player can hop in it and mop up teams, and it isn't so OP that it's invulnerable to good teamwork.

So the TW does need nerfed, but it shouldn't be nerfed to the point it's on par with say...a Jagermech, and with the current selection of mechs available to both Clans and IS, the TW should still be the best heavy in the game. Not because it's iconic, but because even in lore, the TW is such a well designed chassis, that multiple Clans attempted to steal the schematics for how to build it.

Obviously this is a game and certain things must balance out. That's perfectly fine, however "normalization," is not the way to do it. The TW should not be equal. No mechs should be equal! There's a reason why there's multiple different mechs, and just like any other game, some of them are going to be better than others. That's perfectly fine, provided that they aren't "overly better," than the others, which is the problem the TW currently faces.

Edited by Aresye, 30 August 2014 - 11:17 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Sorry to hear that, but if you are trying to claim the TW isn't broken with a straight face, you may need to see a therapist, my friend.

Stick to Battletech...dont stick to battletech! stick to battletech...no dont!

The Timberwolf itself isn't broken, it sits at the sweetspot of 75 tons for clan heavies

Clan XL engines are the broken aspect.

[Praehotec8]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I see and work with plenty of upper tier players in CGBI.
C-SRM6 & 4s
MPLs
LPLs
ER PPC
UAC5s
LRMS40-50s

C-ERMLs are nice, but far from the heart of everything. And that doesn't even touch their laughably broken rear hitboxes (see Konving's test) where I am running around with all of 2 rear armor.

Also, C-ERMLs are the go to on EVERY Chassis.

So why is only the T-Wolf/S-Crow and a MeTA-dIRE wOLF CONSIDERED BROken?


I do know better Calamus. The TWolf is the new Meta. In CGB and out. Don't let fondness for a chassis blind you to that.

I agree with some of this, but my question is this:

- What changes to the timberwolf will balance it so that it is not overpowered yet leave it as a top-tier heavy mech?

Because...make no mistake, the timberwolf is and always was meant to be such, and it is THE iconic mechwarrior battlemech. It is a 75-ton heavy, which is the best point for heavies. I feel it ought to remain the best heavy mech based on that alone, just not overpowered. It needs to continue to have a slight edge over the cataphract (there is no reason for the 'phract to continue to be king mech as it was for so long), and no one takes the orion seriously (none of the L33T players anyways...). What changes will allow this? It seems a delicate balance.

I know nerfs are coming and may not be entirely unwarranted, but I think they need to be done with the utmost care.

Edit: see Aresye's comment above. +100.

Edited by Praehotec8, 31 August 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[Appogee]

Notice what the top teams are mandating in their drop decks...

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 30 August 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Stick to Battletech...dont stick to battletech! stick to battletech...no dont!

The Timberwolf itself isn't broken, it sits at the sweetspot of 75 tons for clan heavies

Clan XL engines are the broken aspect.

then kindly explain why Summoners, Novas, Adders, Kitfoxes and even Warhawks, are not dominating the game? Last I checked, all had Clan XLs too.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praehotec8, on 31 August 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

I agree with some of this, but my question is this:

- What changes to the timberwolf will balance it so that it is not overpowered yet leave it as a top-tier heavy mech?

Because...make no mistake, the timberwolf is and always was meant to be such, and it is THE iconic mechwarrior battlemech. It is a 75-ton heavy, which is the best point for heavies. I feel it ought to remain the best heavy mech based on that alone, just not overpowered. It needs to continue to have a slight edge over the cataphract (there is no reason for the 'phract to continue to be king mech as it was for so long), and no one takes the orion seriously (none of the L33T players anyways...). What changes will allow this? It seems a delicate balance.

I know nerfs are coming and may not be entirely unwarranted, but I think they need to be done with the utmost care.

Edit: see Aresye's comment above. +100.

Aresye has some good ideas. Another, which would be less popular, but also effective, would be to reduce the actual agility of the TWolf, too. Let it keep it's great inline speed and firepower, but make it inline speed. It would allow it to stay strong, but be perhaps less of a brawler. It would also help open up more of a place for the Summoner. People can cry to have it allowed endo, or to remove JJs all they want, and it almost 100%, will not happen. Straying from their defined cores open up too much a can of worms. But their Quirks, agility, and such, are all readily adjusted code.

The JJ Nerf has already impacted them, by at least mostly removing the bloody Timbertarts from serious contention (I'm sure some of ht el33ts can pull them off, but hey at least the frothing masses are not )

Fact remains, the TWolf itself IS the new Meta. While there is always a Meta, having one so clearly and egregiously obvious is never good for a game.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 August 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 August 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

then kindly explain why Summoners, Novas, Adders, Kitfoxes and even Warhawks, are not dominating the game? Last I checked, all had Clan XLs too.

A summoner is 70 tons (not the top of its weight class) and has locked JJ's and somewhat poor slots, but more the former two.

Nova again isnt top of its weight class, despite having the slots for good configs.

The kitfox and adder have slow XLs and are low tonnage.

Warhawk, again low end of it's tonnage bracket.

People gravitate to the top end of each weight class, as they allow you to fit more and do more.

So for your old brain, what makes the TW good, is it is a top end heavy, with good slots given to it by Battletech not PGI.
The Timberwolf is a quick agile mech, that's it's Battletech fluff.

Making it's twist worse to worsen it's performance in brawling is not a bad option, it was primary a long range mech, but i dont think that will have such a dramatic effect in MWO, as most TW's arent used for brawling.

But i would rather see the Summoner helped, as i would the adder, rather than consistently trying to make things worse to make others better.

Edited by DV McKenna, 31 August 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 30 August 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Overpowered? Yes
With no identifiable drawbacks? Yes
Broken? Ehh...not really.

Yes, the TW needs adjusting to bring it in line with other mechs. Most notably it needs a main drawback, which can easily be done by implementing a heat and/or speed penalty for losing a side torso. The TW has easy to hit side torsos, so this would actually give it a decent disadvantage. It may need a small nerf (keyword: small) to its agility, but that should be a last resort as those agility nerfs go against the very rules PGI established for the game in terms of engine performance.

So while the TW is indeed OP and is vastly superior to any other heavies (and some assaults), it isn't indestructible. In the hands of a good player it can be quite devastating, but it isn't so OP that your average player can hop in it and mop up teams, and it isn't so OP that it's invulnerable to good teamwork.

So the TW does need nerfed, but it shouldn't be nerfed to the point it's on par with say...a Jagermech, and with the current selection of mechs available to both Clans and IS, the TW should still be the best heavy in the game. Not because it's iconic, but because even in lore, the TW is such a well designed chassis, that multiple Clans attempted to steal the schematics for how to build it.

Obviously this is a game and certain things must balance out. That's perfectly fine, however "normalization," is not the way to do it. The TW should not be equal. No mechs should be equal! There's a reason why there's multiple different mechs, and just like any other game, some of them are going to be better than others. That's perfectly fine, provided that they aren't "overly better," than the others, which is the problem the TW currently faces.

Will disagree with one thing... in fact, the concept, even with "imperfect" balance, is something approaching equality.... which is not the same as homogeny. If object A has greater firepower, then object B should counter with greater speed, and Object C with better armor/hitboxes and object D with better hardpoints and placement, etc.

So while a Jagermech would not win in a straight up toe to toe slugfest, it MUST have advantages that allow it to be able to best the TWolf in it's own environment, such as the highmount weapon arms and the ability to carry more total tonnage of weaponry, since it CANNOT match the Twolf for armor (or speed, realistically)

Because if the TWolf is just plain better than the Jagermech in EVERY situation, there is no reason to have the Jagermech in the game, Quiaff?

DV McKenna, on 31 August 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

A summoner is 70 tons (not the top of its weight class) and has locked JJ's and somewhat poor slots, but more the former two.

Nova again isnt top of its weight class, despite having the slots for good configs.

The kitfox and adder have slow XLs and are low tonnage.

Warhawk, again low end of it's tonnage bracket.

People gravitate to the top end of each weight class, as they allow you to fit more and do more.

So for your old brain, what makes the TW good, is it is a top end heavy, with good slots given to it by Battletech not PGI.
The Timberwolf is a quick agile mech, that's it's Battletech fluff.

Making it's twist worse to worsen it's performance in brawling is not a bad option, it was primary a long range mech, but i dont think that will have such a dramatic effect in MWO, as most TW's arent used for brawling.

But i would rather see the Summoner helped, as i would the adder, rather than consistently trying to make things worse to make others better.

Ah, my old brain. When one has a flimsy argument, go and attack the person they disagree with. Stay classy McKenna.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Why change a habit of a lifetime of you being an IS hard hat.

What people like you love to forget, is that you can't have it both ways, you can't have it close to battletech and then not close of your own choosing, it either is or it isn't

Eventually if the game survives long enough there will be new IS mechs that will share similar characteristics as the clan mechs do now, so they either have two options later down the line, nerf new IS mechs to match what you want them to do with clans, or return the clan stuff to its original value.

As i say, i would rather see mechs that are poor, boosted into roles of viability, like the summoner, like the adder, like the Jager, as you say this can all be done via quirks and stuff.

There are more answers than nerf everything old man

Edited by DV McKenna, 31 August 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I can see why they nerf so much. No one wants to get killed in the first 5 minutes of battle, so by nerfing weapons and boosting survival of mechs they make a lot of noobs happy.

[TB Freelancer]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

yawn.

Lol.

F2P perpetual game, son. It's pretty commonly understood that NOTHING is set in stone. Balance changes always happen.

If you spent 50-500$ thinking your were going to get some OP p2w keys to the kingdom, you definitely deserve all the sorrow you bought.

(BTW; I bought the Masakari package, and am one of the first to be HAPPY they are trying to balance the bloody things. Garbage like the Timberwolf are bad for the whole bloody game. Get over it.)

Add to that, the fact that PGI outright warned the community up front that they'd be balancing the clans to be different but not better (as was mentioned in another post) long before they so much as accepted a penny on pre-orders, and I just don't see how any rational person can possibly be upset about the changes used in the test server.

[Coralld]

Here are my thoughts on how to fix some issues with the Clan mechs. I'm not going to talk about weapon balance and things of that nature because we already have enough of that going on. This is mostly on the mechs them selves.

First and for most, fix rear hit boxes, particularly the TW and SC so they can't easily get away with only having 2 points of armor in the rear so they can stacking their front close to Dire Wolf levels because that's just stupid.
Also, fix Adder, Summoner, and Nova rear hit boxes so you can't hit their rear CT from the side. No really, because you can do that, which begs the question of how is that even physically possible?! Makes no sense!!

Side torso loss penalties for Clan XL. Per lore and TT, a CXL mech gets hit with heat and speed penalties when Engine crits are destroyed. I do believe a flat 20% penalty to heat, speed, and torso speed and turn radius would be a good place to start.
Also, thanks to the new quirk system, some Clan mechs, such as Adder and Summoner for example, can have quirks that greatly reduce the penalty when losing a ST, say reduce CXL engine penalties by 50% or so.

Adjust turning radius and torso twist speed and rotation radius on some Clan mechs. TW needs to have its decreased for sure, and the Summoner possibly increased. The same can be said for other Clan mechs, possibly a per variant basis.

Sure this will not solve everything but its a great start for the much needed adjustments to Clan mechs.

Edited by Coralld, 31 August 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Calamus]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

I do know better Calamus. The TWolf is the new Meta. In CGB and out. Don't let fondness for a chassis blind you to that.

Bishop, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't even OWN a Timberwolf. I have dropped in one ONCE, during the Public test. I face them all the time, and I take them down just as much as they take me down. Your meta fantasy is just that; a fantasy.