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Bait And Switch


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#1 Fatal25

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:21 AM

It seems as though all of us that paid $50-$500 for clan mechs are being hit with the old bait and switch tactic by PGI. You bait us in with these new shiny clan mechs with fancy new weapons systems so we bite, and buy some of them. To balance the new weapon systems you make lasers burn longer, PPC do 10 dmg instead of 15, and LRM that fire in a line of 2 or 3, which are easier to avoid than the IS LRM that fire in packs of 10-20. Taking an AMS on some mechs, the Direwolf for example, forces you to give up two ballistic slots lessening your damage potential in the name of balance. Clan autocannons fire in burst mode instead of one slug making it extremely hard to really damage a moving mech. You cannot change your clan engine size nor can you change armor or endo steel slots or jump jet slots. All of this is done in the name of balance and we knew this when we bought our clan mechs for cash.

Now we see on the test server that you are adding more heat and decreasing the range of a lot of clan weapon systems, all in the name of balance. I don't know what game you guys are playing, but clan mechs do not automatically make you a MW god. There are plenty of games where an IS mech is the top performer. Why would anyone design the nova prime with 12 med lasers just to have it melt down into a pile a goo if you fire them all.

If you want to fix all of the complaining about clan mechs just release them all now. Quit acting like you are releasing new content every couple of weeks by simply giving us mechs already in game for Cbills. I bet if you do that just about all of the complaining about balance will go away.

All of this clan mech nerfing makes me feel like I paid for a 400 channel cable plan and you want to take 100 channels away every so often because it isn't fair to the guy who just has basic cable. Not a great business model to encourage returning customers.

#2 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:24 AM

yawn.

Lol.

F2P perpetual game, son. It's pretty commonly understood that NOTHING is set in stone. Balance changes always happen.

If you spent 50-500$ thinking your were going to get some OP p2w keys to the kingdom, you definitely deserve all the sorrow you bought.

(BTW; I bought the Masakari package, and am one of the first to be HAPPY they are trying to balance the bloody things. Garbage like the Timberwolf are bad for the whole bloody game. Get over it.)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 August 2014 - 08:25 AM.


#3 Monkey Lover

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:30 AM

The more I learn about this company the more I see it happen. They put out a really good mech sell a lot of them then nerf it.

#4 Coralld

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:37 AM

Interesting Mr. OP, very interesting...

Say, when your done with that soapbox, can I have it? I really want to slap some wheels on it and go down that hill over there.

#5 FDJustin

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:45 AM

It doesn't feel good to have your stuff nerfed, whether your bought it for p2w or not. There are two options, I guess, and people are split on what they want.
One side wants enhanced IS equipment instead of clan nerfs.
The other wants clan nerfs instead of enhanced IS equipment.

The former don't want to feel like they're being robbed, and that's understandable.
The latter would rather an overall slower TTK, and that's reasonable.

I'm in the former camp because I think it overall leaves people happier. By nerfing, you:
a. Validate all the claims that clans were in fact p2w all along, and the nerfs are only hitting now because they're coming out for cbills.
b. Directly make something people have paid for less useful. That's going to feel gross to just about everyone who made a purchase, not just those bought it expecting p2w. If you indirectly nerf them by making alternate choices more competitive, only the p2w people will be butthurt, everyone else will just be happy with their unmolested toys.

Funny thing is, the option that'll piss off the whales isn't the business savvy one. So I can only assume they think a lower TTK is a better overall direction for the game, and are sticking to it at the risk of reduced income.

#6 Carrie Harder

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:46 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

(BTW; I bought the Masakari package, and am one of the first to be HAPPY they are trying to balance the bloody things. Garbage like the Timberwolf are bad for the whole bloody game. Get over it.)

I don't think Paul's actions can be described as trying to "balance" the equipment...

#7 MerryIguana

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:49 AM

What do you expect when they use live servers to test their ****? They were going to be imbalanced one way or the other.

#8 Fantastic Tuesday

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:49 AM

View PostFatal25, on 30 August 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

You bait us in with these new shiny clan mechs with fancy new weapons systems so we bite, and buy some of them.


Except they didn't reveal any details about their stats before release. All they said is that they would not be ton-for-ton better than IS mechs. You were buying into uncertainty.

So I don't really see where the bait is.

#9 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:54 AM

View PostFantastic Tuesday, on 30 August 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Except they didn't reveal any details about their stats before release. All they said is that they would not be ton-for-ton better than IS mechs. You were buying into uncertainty.

So I don't really see where the bait is.

Yup. In fact, any "switch" was some of them turning out to be far better than they should have been, given the pre-sales promises. And supposedly, they are addressing that.

View PostFDJustin, on 30 August 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

It doesn't feel good to have your stuff nerfed, whether your bought it for p2w or not. There are two options, I guess, and people are split on what they want.
One side wants enhanced IS equipment instead of clan nerfs.
The other wants clan nerfs instead of enhanced IS equipment.

The former don't want to feel like they're being robbed, and that's understandable.
The latter would rather an overall slower TTK, and that's reasonable.

I'm in the former camp because I think it overall leaves people happier. By nerfing, you:
a. Validate all the claims that clans were in fact p2w all along, and the nerfs are only hitting now because they're coming out for cbills.
b. Directly make something people have paid for less useful. That's going to feel gross to just about everyone who made a purchase, not just those bought it expecting p2w. If you indirectly nerf them by making alternate choices more competitive, only the p2w people will be butthurt, everyone else will just be happy with their unmolested toys.

Funny thing is, the option that'll piss off the whales isn't the business savvy one. So I can only assume they think a lower TTK is a better overall direction for the game, and are sticking to it at the risk of reduced income.

funny thing is, by buffing the one, you are still actually nerfing the other, it just gives the illusion otherwise, but the end result, is essentially the same. Just with more power creep.


Power creep is bad. TTK is already too low, "buffing" IS just continues the trend of lowering it further, which is not a good thing.

#10 El Bandito

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:00 AM

READ THE DAMN EULA!

Whenever you press accept, you are agreeing to let PGI have their way with whatever content you gathered. Stop whining.


View PostBishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Yup. In fact, any "switch" was some of them turning out to be far better than they should have been, given the pre-sales promises. And supposedly, they are addressing that. funny thing is, by buffing the one, you are still actually nerfing the other, it just gives the illusion otherwise, but the end result, is essentially the same. Just with more power creep. Power creep is bad. TTK is already too low, "buffing" IS just continues the trend of lowering it further, which is not a good thing.


Well said. Too bad the Clan advocates do not comprehend it.

View PostMonkey Lover, on 30 August 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

The more I learn about this company the more I see it happen. They put out a really good mech sell a lot of them then nerf it.


That's still better than not nerfing the said mech and making the queue choke with it. Remember the plague of Highlanders and Victors? Currently T-Wolves are just that. It is bad for the game in the long run to have mechs that are above the others.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 August 2014 - 10:54 AM.


#11 EvilCow

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:08 AM

Nova is out, medium lasers no more needed, nothing to see here.

#12 Coralld

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:09 AM

Koniving pointed out that hitbox's on some Clan Mechs are screwed up, here is what he said.

Note: I did edit the post, but only in that I deleted things not relevant to the current conversation, IE: Burst fire VS. FLD

View PostKoniving, on 19 August 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:


......................
Quite frankly there are only 3 things that are making the Clan mechs unbalanced.

1) Inconsistent ghost heat. Somehow ER LL, LPL are NOT linked for the Clan. Why? It makes NO sense. LRM ghost heat for Clans is a joke. LRM ghost heat for the Inner Sphere is nasty. Sarna lists Clan ghost heat to be even worse, but to be honest it's colder than IS ghost heat for said LRMs -- why? The burst fire.

2) Bad hitbox design. This is going in the Clan mech's favor. Want to know why Clan mechs seem harder to kill than IS mechs? Any experienced player knows that the Clan hitboxes are warped; specifically your "rear torso" is a flat panel and everything else is front torso. So "2 armor" on the back, everything else on the front and go through LRM hell with zero rear damage? Yep you can do that.

While the typical Victor has 80 to 88 armor on the front CT, 48 to 52 armor on the front STs and still have to worry about their rear armor despite how high up it is...
The typical Clan mech (specifically the Timber Wolf) has 90 front CT armor and 62 front ST armor, with only 2 rear armor, and will most likely die from anything but a rear torso shot.

The problem isn't the weapons, if it was then the more adequately hitboxed mechs like the Summoner or the Adder would be a real threat. The Nova would also be a much bigger threat (you can, btw, hit the Nova's rear torso from the side and from above while in front of it. Unlike the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf).

The really deadly Dire Wolves are running 110 armor on the front CT and 70 on the front STs.

Now wait... The TW has 90 front CT, 62 front ST... and the Dire Wolf only sports 20 more CT and 8 more ST?

Notice why the TW seems so powerful? Add poptarting to the mix and well bam, there's the Over-powered nature. Bad hitbox design that works too strongly in their favor.

This was what looked like a brand new TW user who doesn't know about the hitbox bug (very basic changes, no paint changes, still using Prime variant side torsos and arms, only weapons were changed with missiles removed and a CT UAC/2 with an LBX-5 ST.). It took 4 volleys of twin AC/10 and 4 LL blasts to kill him. That's 116 damage. The default CT armor is 72 front + 37 structure = 109 damage to take. Had he been built like the hitbox abusing meta TWs, it'd have been 127 needed to kill him and I would have died.
Posted Image
He said shortly after "TW being OP is bull_____" immediately after. He couldn't even kill a 60 ton mech that he got the first shot on with a really nasty weapon set. He was so confident in rushing a Quickdraw and getting the kill because he was the almighty overpowered Timber Wolf. ....and he was a joke, because he still had 18 armor on the rear CT and 14 on the rear STs -- things that IS mechs do all the time... but Clan mechs don't have to due to how ridiculously favorable the hitboxes are for the front torsos to really stack that armor.

Compare to a Summoner. You can hit the rear torso from the side and from above with LRMs because the head is cut in half with front and back, as is the big launcher. The typical Summoner will actually run 22 armor on the rear CT because of how easily it is hit.

3) Targeting Computer. This speeds up bullets and gives energy weapons longer range. Combined with the Clan range modules, the IS has no counter to this at all (IS range modules are useless if Clans have them too).
...........................................


#13 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:10 AM

View PostFatal25, on 30 August 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

It seems as though all of us that paid $50-$500 for clan mechs are being hit with the old bait and switch tactic by PGI. You bait us in with these new shiny clan mechs with fancy new weapons systems so we bite, and buy some of them. To balance the new weapon systems you make lasers burn longer, PPC do 10 dmg instead of 15, and LRM that fire in a line of 2 or 3, which are easier to avoid than the IS LRM that fire in packs of 10-20. Taking an AMS on some mechs, the Direwolf for example, forces you to give up two ballistic slots lessening your damage potential in the name of balance. Clan autocannons fire in burst mode instead of one slug making it extremely hard to really damage a moving mech. You cannot change your clan engine size nor can you change armor or endo steel slots or jump jet slots. All of this is done in the name of balance and we knew this when we bought our clan mechs for cash.

Now we see on the test server that you are adding more heat and decreasing the range of a lot of clan weapon systems, all in the name of balance. I don't know what game you guys are playing, but clan mechs do not automatically make you a MW god. There are plenty of games where an IS mech is the top performer. Why would anyone design the nova prime with 12 med lasers just to have it melt down into a pile a goo if you fire them all.

If you want to fix all of the complaining about clan mechs just release them all now. Quit acting like you are releasing new content every couple of weeks by simply giving us mechs already in game for Cbills. I bet if you do that just about all of the complaining about balance will go away.

All of this clan mech nerfing makes me feel like I paid for a 400 channel cable plan and you want to take 100 channels away every so often because it isn't fair to the guy who just has basic cable. Not a great business model to encourage returning customers.


LOL, no.

I bought clan mechs, because they are clan mechs. I wasn't looking for an advantage. I just like mechs man.

If YOU bought into it because "LULZ CLANZ OPZ!" then I got news for you son.

#14 FDJustin

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:11 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 30 August 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Yup. In fact, any "switch" was some of them turning out to be far better than they should have been, given the pre-sales promises. And supposedly, they are addressing that.


funny thing is, by buffing the one, you are still actually nerfing the other, it just gives the illusion otherwise, but the end result, is essentially the same. Just with more power creep.


Power creep is bad. TTK is already too low, "buffing" IS just continues the trend of lowering it further, which is not a good thing.

We're on the same page. I don't disagree with the choice; if enough of the community or game developers think TTK is too high, it's definitely the right choice to make. It's just not what I would have done for reasons previously stated.

#15 Vassago Rain

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 30 August 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

READ THE DAMN EULA!

Whenever you press accept, you are agreeing to let PGI have their way with whatever content you gathered. Stop whining.




Well said. Too bad the Clan advocates do not comprehend it.



That's still better than not nerfing the said mechs and making the queue choke with it. Remember the plague of Highlanders and Victors? Currently T-Wolves are just that. It is bad for the game in the long run to have mechs that are above the others.


Yes, this man here has it right.

So why did you pay PGI for clan gundams in the first place? After getting bitten once, people should have learned.

#16 TercieI

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:18 AM

Complaining that your P2W got pulled back to sorta balanced is never going to get much sympathy.

#17 Viges

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:22 AM

The problem is not nerfing but releasing p2w mechs in the first place.

#18 Phex

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:25 AM

I'm slightly confused,
one side says "this is P2W", the other side says "I've spent money to be better than others and it is not so."
And all give PGI blame.
What should they do?
The game should be fairly balanced for all.
And so it is!
And since you can test as much as you want, only in the public game you can filter out where the problems lie.
And then you have to rework.
I think many people forget that this game is in a constant development and it probably always will be.


I see it this way:
This is war, during the war, the things change constantly.
Only those who are able to adapt to new situations will win.
See all the changes as a challenge.

Greetings Phex

#19 Vassago Rain

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:30 AM

View PostPhex, on 30 August 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

I'm slightly confused,
one side says "this is P2W", the other side says "I've spent money to be better than others and it is not so."
And all give PGI blame.
What should they do?
The game should be fairly balanced for all.
And so it is!
And since you can test as much as you want, only in the public game you can filter out where the problems lie.
And then you have to rework.
I think many people forget that this game is in a constant development and it probably always will be.


I see it this way:
This is war, during the war, the things change constantly.
Only those who are able to adapt to new situations will win.
See all the changes as a challenge.

Greetings Phex


Yes, you gotta, like, adapt and overcome, maaaaaaaaan!
We gotz to fight the system! It's all about the natural state of evolution coursing through our veins, bro!

Posted Image

Or it's a poorly balanced robot game with P2W robots that didn't pan out as well as initially planned. People who bought the P2W robots to P2W are mad that their money was wasted, and those of us who didn't pay are mad that we had to see P2W robots in the first place.

Solution: don't be so greedy next time.
#2: don't pay for stuff supplied by someone you know has a habit of changing their minds whenever it's convenient for them.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 30 August 2014 - 09:37 AM.


#20 Marmon Rzohr

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:47 AM

Ok....

so much anger in one thread.

There is obviously no bait and switch. Clan mechs are still great, and will always be good. Except the lights - those will stay underwhelming.

All we have is something a lot of people have been wanting to see for a long time - fast, decisive balance changes to bring the game in line. There was even a 10vs12 test run.

View PostCoralld, on 30 August 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Koniving pointed out that hitbox's on some Clan Mechs are screwed up, here is what he said.

Note: I did edit the post, but only in that I deleted things not relevant to the current conversation, IE: Burst fire VS. FLD


I find the post you quoted confusing. I for instance don't run over 10 back armor on any of my IS mechs and it works just fine. And I have not had any problem killing Clan mechs from the rear...
A point is made of how the Summoner's rear armor can be hit from the side or above and these are "adequate hitboxes" ?
How does that make any sense ? Of course you shouldn't be able to do that !

All mechs should have good, tanky hitboxes. We shouldn't nerf those mechs that have them, we should buff those who haven't got em.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 30 August 2014 - 09:48 AM.




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