120 replies to this topic

[Garandos]

1.) I might add, from my experience, that a lot of PUG Mechs are "used as
bought" which does put the IS mechs at an "disatvantage"
This surely might differ in High Elo Matches, but then, most T-lists
for competive play do include a lot of IS mechs, and Designs like the
Nova are not considered that good.
But given that an Clan mech comes with "superior" Equipment, which you
pay upfront, and that an IS mech, to perform the same, need to pay a lot of C-bills (evening out the price difference between IS and Clan Mechs)
and that a lot of "average Elo" players dont do this, Clan Mechs are
simply better (but! thats not an OP by nature problem, its a laziness problem of the IS Mech owners)



2.) Good Point, i might add, while Clan mechs do have longer ranges,
your average fight happens at arround 300-400 metres, at last in the
"middle ground" of skill, where i dare to say i am, you barely see
fights where the Clan Range advantage would bear much weight, plus
seeing modules is rather rare in PUGs at my Elo is rather rare, so
even if Clan Mechs get to use their higher range, i barely see them
doing anything with it (firing at 900+ metres without Advanced zoom,
nearly allways leads to damage all over your target, but barely ever
to dangerous hits, those come, most of the time, from IS mechs)

3) no they cant, not really, if you use the same weight class,
and the same upgrade (meaning BUY those DHS, Endo and XL engine
for your light) you can put it about as much stuff into an IS mech
as you can into an Clan mech, brings me back to 1.) a lot of people simply
do not bother with upgrades to their IS mechs, they either use (C) variants
stock, or use stock variants, maybe switching some weapons, but hardly
ever investing the 1.5 Million for DHS or even the 4-6 Million for XL´s
and under those circustances, yepp, Clan mechs HAVE an Advantage, but again,
lazyness on the IS player side, not the design.

Same Tonnage, same Upgrade, IS mechs have on average 5 more free tons
for Equipment (That is, both Mechs using XL´s of the same class and Endo/
Ferro as applicable)

So maybe, just maybe BUY THOSE UPGRADES allready for your IS mechs?
(not meant to everybody, but to the broad audience, which rather buys
more mechs instead of grading their stuff)

[Kilo 40]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 01 September 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

They are NOT designed to be "moar powerfull", just check the Lore/Sarna.Net CL weapon stats, combine them with your mech build and compare with same class IS mech weapon builds and lore weapon stats.
So please, Clan FanGirls, stop crying a river the NERFINATOR are right.

"They are NOT designed to be "moar powerfull"??? are you kidding me?

In every mechwarrior game everyone gets clan tech ASAP, because....it's "moar powerfull" and usually at half the weight and much less heat.

you guys act like PGI came up with clans from scratch.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Kilo 40, on 01 September 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

"They are NOT designed to be "moar powerfull"??? are you kidding me?

In every mechwarrior game everyone gets clan tech ASAP, because....it's "moar powerfull" and usually at half the weight and much less heat.

you guys act like PGI came up with clans from scratch.

You are arguing with Lore Facts little forum warrior. Your lack of fail is disturbing.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 01 September 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Kilo 40]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 01 September 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

You are arguing with Lore Facts little forum warrior. Yor lack of fail is disturbing.

"Lore Facts"

Clan LRM20: 5 tons, no minimum range, 4 crit slots

IS LRM20: 10 tons, min range of 6, 5 crit slots.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20



Clan ERLL: damage 10, long range 16-25, 4 tons, crit slots 1

IS ERLL: Damage 8, long range 15-19, 5 tons, crit slots 2

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ERLL

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Kilo 40, on 01 September 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

"Lore Facts"

Clan LRM20: 5 tons, no minimum range, 4 crit slots

IS LRM20: 10 tons, min range of 6, 5 crit slots.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM-20



Clan ERLL: damage 10, long range 16-25, 4 tons, crit slots 1

IS ERLL: Damage 8, long range 15-19, 5 tons, crit slots 2

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ERLL

Same as now... actually. So will you stop your heresy now, please!

[Kilo 40]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 01 September 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

Same as now... actually.

no kidding. That's exactly the damn point. The were designed in TT to be more powerful than the IS. PGI didn't make them OP to sell them as was suggested.

now stop trolling.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Kilo 40, on 01 September 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

The were designed in TT to be more powerful than the IS. PGI didn't make them OP to sell them as was suggested.

STACKPOLE FTW.... TLDR.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 01 September 2014 - 02:27 AM.

[Kilo 40]

*yawn*

shoo troll shoo

[Alistair Winter]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

1.) Clan Mechs almost ALWAYS stay in a 'clump'. Giving them an advantage over the IS players that, in a totally opposite ploy, nearly always end up 'strung out' in a line. Is this a "Clans are OP" thing?. No.. the Design of Clan mech's in that we can NOT change our engines, means that we all move at relatively the same speed. This in itself causes almost all Clan mech's, be they a pair of Solo players or a full lance of players grouped together, to naturally group up into 1 unit.

Makes virtually no difference on tiny maps. In group queue, people will move together anyway. In solo queue, the bigger concern is first and foremost whether people are running in the same direction. Also, this doesn't explain why Clan mechs perform better than IS mechs when teams are a combination of both.

Next.

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

2.) Clan weapons (pre nerfing to death) have a longer reach. Is this a "Clan is OP!" thing? Not really, because that longer reach comes with the price of having the damage spread out over a LONGER duration.

Exactly, so it doesn't explain why the Clan mechs consistently do more damage and get more kills.

Next.

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

3.) Clans can carry more firepower than me! Ok... simple answer to that is start to learn how to use Flamers. (no i am NOT kidding, i am being completely serious here).

Next.

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

4.) Learn what to shoot at. The standard "I Win" feature of MWO, due to the way they modeled their FPS element, is to point at, and shoot, the CT of the enemy Mech. Kill the CT, you kill the mech. And with all weapons (excluding missiles) hitting exactly were you point, that's child's-play to do. This works well against nearly all IS mech's, because a lot of them carry weapons both on their arms, and their ST/CT's.

The most dangerous Clan mechs are arguably the Storm Crow, the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf.

For the Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf, this argument is pretty much worthless, because very few Inner Sphere heavy and assault mechs have CT weapons. And all the traditional top IS mechs are without CT weapons (Jagermechs, CTF-3D, Ilya, Victors, Highlanders, Atlas DDC)

For the Storm Crow, taking out a side torso is very significant. However, almost all IS medium mechs with SRMs use XL engines. Taking out their side torso ends their life instantly. That's more significant. The IS mechs without XL engines tend not to have CT weapons. The one exception is the Centurion, but the Centurion is extremely easy to disarm compared to the Storm Crow.

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

What have you guys noticed during gameplay that supposedly makes Clan Mech's OP?

That they consistently get better results on the battlefield. They get more kills, do more damage. That's it.

[Widowmaker1981]

In fairness, something people never seem to notice is that the higher damage numbers on clan mechs are pretty obvious - for example: PGI balances clan UaCs by making them burst fire, this means that it is impossible to concentrate damage and you end up with gigantic damage per kill (using a 4xML 5xUAC5 direwolf ive usually got all 3 torsos to orange before the target actually dies. Using a 3xAC5 2xERLL banshee 3E the target normally still has armour on both STs when their CT explodes. The direwolf looks a lot better on the end of match screen, the banshee killed stuff faster. and moved faster. and turned better.

there is the advantage that all that spread AC damage results in a lot of screenshake, which is true, and why i think that Clan ACs and LRMs should have their screenshake reduced.

[Gwydion Ward]

Fleeb the Mad, on 01 September 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

I don't take much stock in that kind of theorycrafting. Its not realistic. The real numbers, as shown by Clan v IS testing results, and Kiiyor's extensive reporting, encompassing the results of hundreds of matches, show a clear pattern.

A clear pattern of what though? that Clans won 90% of the Fights in Clan vs IS? and that's the entirety of what their basing their decisions on? Ive been in plenty of IS vs IS matches pre-clan that had that same turnout, 12-0 rolls. If the only thing their 'reporting' is in 'win/loss' situations, then that doesn't go into any detail at all about what 'happened' in those fights. As i said. In the 20+ fights i did on Clan Vs IS, the IS team was 'scattered' across 4-5 grids, while the Clan were nearly always right next to each other. In any match, be it Pre-Clan, Clan vs IS, or Mixed matches; The Team that is scattered tot he 4-corners of the map is going to be the one that losses nearly every time.

Im constantly seeing in regular, mixed, drops, Just as the match starts, IS lights will fly to the wide ends of the map leaving their entire team/lances behind. Which, ok, their scouts, its their job. BUT, i will ALSO almost always see Medium and Heavy IS mech's doing the exact same thing. Taking off in a direction and leaving their entire lance behind them. Why? Because you can CHANGE the engines in IS mech's. Hardly ever do you see 2 IS mech's of the same type moving at the same speed. And with the pug mentality of 'i want to get kills!' those players with the speedier machines constantly leave their slower, heavier, buddies behind. And more often than not, either get themselves killed, or the people they leave behind get killed.

With Clan mech's, you hardly ever see this happen except to the Dire Wolves, as almost all Clan mech's move at relatively the same speed. Even if one of those Clan mech's is piloted by one of those 'i gotta go kill!' pug's.. he CANT leave his buddies behind, because he is no faster than they are.

Which brings me full circle to the 'Groups that stay together will almost always win against those that scatter' Clan vs IS matches, In the matches i was as a Clan and won, it was nearly always because the IS team was stretched out across 4-5 grids and the Clans were in clumps. When i play as Clan in Mixed matches. IS mehc's are almost always seen running of on their own while, again, the Clan mech's stay together. A lance could have 3 Clans and 1 IS mech, that 1 IS will scamper off, and those 3 clans will stay together. Or, Lance could have 3 IS mech's and 1 clan. Those 3 IS mech's will take off at 3 different speeds, while the clan runs along at his, usually finding the 1 IS mech that's close to his speed to stay near.

When i run my IS mech's (usually a Wolvy or a Thunderbolt), I'll initially take off on my own full speed at the start of a match, but i'll keep an eye on the mini-map to see how fast im pulling away from the others in the lance. If one is slowing down a lot (the gap between us is getting larger rather fast) I will stop and wait for the other guy (be he in a Clan or IS mech), yet i will still, over and over, see the other IS mech's speed off on their own. And in nearly every match (even as an IS mech) were i see my own team's IS mech's scattering out in a long line. I'll almost always see the friendly clan mehc's in 'groups'.

The way the IS mech's are designed in being fully 'tunable' if not fully customizable in their weapon's, almost always results in the 'lone-wolf' style play of its pilots. The Clan's on the other hand, their 'weapons' are customizable, but you cant 'tune' the mech itself in terms of its max speed. This nearly always results in even lone-wolf players being forced to group up with other Clan mech's because they CANT out-run them. They may be able to outrun that DireWolf in their Timber, but that other Timber in their lance will usually end up right there at their side.

With all of that thrown together, it wouldnt surpise me at all if Clan's won more of the Clan vs IS matches, or if Clan mech's are more-often-than-not the last ones standing in Mixed fights. 9 times out of 10, you face an IS mech, he's likely by himself, face a Clan mech, and another one is likely near him. And numbers (of mechs), despite any weapon advantage, will win out.

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The Clan XL is simply substantially better.

Yet PGI is not 'patching' the Clan XL.... their to busy nerfing the clan 'weapons' to the point that sooner or later firing 2 C-ERSL's will give a Dire Wolf with 30 heat-sinks 50% heat.

The Clan XL ST thing is the one issue i agree with everyone on. Losing that ST at a Clan mech needs to do 'something' that gives an immediate impact on how that mech continues to operate. Ive lost the ST on my Timber Wolf in numerous matches, yet not once have i noticed 'any' penalty to doing so, other than the loss of 1/2 of my weapons (or 2/3 of them if its my left ST with my 3rd spl on it.). I can still move just as fast as if i still had it, i dont notice any real 'heat' penalty (because hey, ive lost almost 2/3 of my heat generating weapons), i pretty much only know that i am at a weapons disadvantage now with only having 3-4 weapons instead of my usual 8.

If PGI really wants to 'balance' Clans, they need to stop trying to make changes to the 'weapons', when the real, 'major' advantage with Clans, is the way their XL engines work. Making changes to 'weapons', when the problem is wiht 'engines', is NEVER going to solve the problem. All it will do is cause them to nerf the Clan weapons until, as i said, firing 2 C-ERSL's will cause a Dire Wolf to hit 50% heat.

If anything, make it so that if a Clan Mech loses its ST, they suffer a movement penalty 'similar' (but not exactly) to that of losing a leg. Say, 1/2 - 2/3 the speed penalty of losing a leg. (but if a leg is lost as well as a ST they move at the speed of a lost leg, not a 'combination' of both penalties). Or baring that, make the increased heat build up from the loss of a ST of the remaining weapons 'noticeable'. As i mentioned, on my Timber (and that IS the build i use that i posted on page 4), the 'only' thing i notice when i lose a ST, is that ive lost weapons. I dont really notice any increased heat buildup.

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Also, trying to obfuscate a point about Clan weapons having flat-out more range by implying that extra range can't be effectively used is completely wrong. Have you played a game on Alpine lately? Not being able to cross open spaces such as the water on Forest Colony or River City is a consequence of this particular problem, which is apparently 'stupid to do'. It's not supposed to be suicide. With the changes to the PPC making it harder to land long-range hits, the IS has only one sniper weapon left in the stable - the Gauss rifle. Its Clan counterpart functions exactly the same, with the exception of fewer crits and less tonnage. It's functionally superior in every respect. That isn't balance either.

Even pre-clan, going out into the water on Alpine was a bad idea. Your too exposed to ANY fire, be it a Clan's ER weapons, or an IS carrying 4x LRM15's and a pair of Gauss rifles. Just because an 'Already' bad idea, is now even MORE of a bad idea, does not automatically equate that new weapons are overpowered. Rarely, pre-clan, or post-clan, have i EVER seen a team win a match when the majority of (or even part of) the team goes out into that side of the map.

Trying to base balance choices based on that would be like trying to base balance choices over Mech's fighting in the Caldera on Tera Therma, or the other Volcano map. "well, the Mehc's are all over-heating after doing 2 alphas while standing over lava... i guess we have our Heat levels for those weapons set to high."

*shrugs*

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I get the impression you're not a brawler, because nobody who has to close in an IS mech would try to dismiss arguments on Clan range by trying to imply only a slopply player lets themselves get shot from 800m.

Take another look at the Timber Wolf loadout i linked on page 4. That IS the Timber loadout i use 90% of the time. (I do have a second Timber thats sporting 4x SRM6's, 2x MPL's, 2x ERSL's and i 'think' 2 mg's.) The max range on my primary weapons (the LPL's) is 600m. Yet i hardly ever use them at that range. Most of the fighting i do tends to be at 500m or less. While i 'could' volley-fire my LRM's, i dont carry enough to make that an effective tactic. I only ever volley-fire if i see a enemy mech TAG'd or NARC'd and its almost dead. Even then, i usually only send 1 volley his way and no more. So while i may not be a 'brawler' in the terms that i spend 90% of my life fighting someone at 100m, i 'am' brawling for the most part as it takes quite a bit of piloting skill to 'keep' someone at 400-600m (which is why i have those 3 SPL's and 3 MG's). At some point during the fights, i always end up switching from the LPL + LRM combo, down to my SPL's and MG's. (which i think has gotten me a fair bit of kills more than my LPL's have as people tend to rush me, not realizing just how deadly 3 SPL's backed up by 3 MG's can be as appose to 2 or 3 SL/ML's).

*quick edit*

Both my Wolverine and Thunderbolt are also set up for mid-shot range fights. Both have Flamers (for use against Clan mech's or other Laser boats (be it IS or Clan), both carry SRM's and while the Thunderbolt has a LBX10, it still stays around 400m or so of its target when fighting.

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As much as I wish this game was all brawl, all the time, fights in my experience start out as peek-a-boo cover fighting at long range with a No Man's Land in between. Being out of cover for only a couple seconds is enough to get repeatedly hit, depending on how many enemies see you.

This happens no-matter what mech your using, or being shot at by. But again. Even as you say yourself "Fights "start out" as a game of peek-a-boo cover fighting" for those who are carrying long-range weapons. But those peek-a-boo fights only last for a long time in specific areas of most maps (ie: the open water with the boat on Alpine, the 'outer edges' of the Desert Volcano map, people who feel like standing on the high-points on Frozen city, the peninsula-type area on the map with the vally cutting threw the mountain range.) In most other cases, the (for lack of a better term....) smarter players, who know they are not carrying long-range weaponry, will follow the more boxed in, cover filled, areas of the maps. They might get tagged once or twice by sporadic weapon fire (just enough to turn their armor from blue to yellow on the HUD), but thats about it.

After that, nearly all fighting is done at 600m (at the extreme) or less distances. (which is the main reason my Timber Wolf build is set up as it is.) Again, except for a few specific instances.

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I find my position to be more objective. If the key to the game is to make lots of different options viable, you have to attack clear outliers that are either too strong or too weak. Nerfs to the most powerful tech as opposed to buffs to the weakest will come because PGI wants combat to last longer.

Again though, If you go by the 'numbers' game that people seem to want to do, Clan weapons are NOT vastly overpowered as quite a few people try to make them out to be. If that were the case, in those example builds i made (matching each build weapon for weapon), the 'highest' firepower difference should have been upwards of 20-30 points, not a measly 9. And the 'dps' differences should have been in the 3-4 range, not 1 or less.

Yes, i can mount 7 Energy weapons onto my Timber if i wanted, and then try to match it up against another Catapult, and you'd see a difference in damage output. But at the same time, Take an IS mech that can sport 7 energy weapons, and match it up against a Clan mech that cant mount that many, or even another IS mech that cant, and you'd see the same difference. You dont 'fix' balance situations such as that by nerfing the 'individual' weapons to the point were their useless, you limit how many of a specific weapon can be fired at once. If people are sporting Timbers with 7 ERLL's, and thats causing them to have a unmatched alpha of 80-something, Then change the limit on how many of those ERLL's can fire at once before the Timber assplosdes itself like a Nova does. Dont sit there and Nerf the ERLL 'itself' down to were your better off using a ERML whenever you 'might' have wanted to use a single ERLL.

Those builds i put together, While not 'the best of the best meta-builds' were 'matched' and 'balanced' builds. Did the clans have an edge? Yes. Was it a 'major' edge? Not really. In terms of armor, the difference was 10 point at the most (though the raven actually has more armor than the Kitfox). In terms of fire-power, the clans had a slight edge (again, 9 points at the 'most'), In terms of dps, again, slight edge to the clans (1 point or so?) but nothing outragious. The ONLY true, one-sided advantage the clans had, was their ability to take a ST loss and 'still' function. THAT is were the imbalance is. Not the weapons. If anything the firepower and dps numbers are probably closer to 'balanced' that they showed because i couldnt fit a 3rd SPL or MG's on the catapault, and i was 'i think' missing the MG's on the raven/kitfox comparison. Take those slight differences away, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the numbers were nearly identical.

Yet its the weapons that PGI seems intent on piling more and more nerfs onto. And the end result is going to be that Clan weapons are going to be 'worse' than IS ones (to the point were 2 C-ERSL's cause 50% heat). Yet people will still complain about how Clan Mech's can survive with 1 ST missing and not have any 'noticeable' side-effect of it.

They need to stop trying to fix an 'engine' imbalance with 'weapon nerfs' and start tweaking how the loss of a ST effects the clan mech's.

As i mentioned, Make it were they suffer a speed/maneuverability penalty similar to losing a leg when a ST is lost, Increase the heat generation / loss-rate when a ST is lost. Do 'something' to the Mech that gives a definitive loss of functionality to it. Let THAT change run for a while and THEN start working on weapons again if that dosnt even things out as more IS pilots start to use XL's in order to counter the speed/firepower advantage clan mechs have by making use of XL's themselves.

Again, as i showed in those loadout comparisons (yes they may not be what people consider 'the best' builds, but they work for this purpose). The tools/options needed for an IS mech to come up to being nearly even with a Clan mech are ALREADY in game. The IS pilots are just not using them because the biggest tool they need to use is an XL engine of their own.

Edited by ShadowWard, 01 September 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 September 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

In fairness, something people never seem to notice is that the higher damage numbers on clan mechs are pretty obvious - for example: PGI balances clan UaCs by making them burst fire, this means that it is impossible to concentrate damage and you end up with gigantic damage per kill (using a 4xML 5xUAC5 direwolf ive usually got all 3 torsos to orange before the target actually dies.

This as well.

Seeing Clans with 'high damage scores' in a match does NOT mean they were 9x more powerful than you were. My personal best score in my Dire Wolf.. is 1300 damage in 1 match. Yes, 1300. BUT, here's the thing. I only had 1 kill.

If i had done 1300 damage with weapons that were 'massively overpowered', i should have had a kill-count of 7 or 8. not 1.

So how did i end up with 1300 damage?. 6x UAC2's and 2 ERLL's. I blew off more legs and arms than i did anything else. THAT, combined with destruction of components gave me a rather high 'damage' score. But again, i only had 1 kill.

Spend the Entire match as an IS mech and focus on doing nothing but blowing off arms/legs/st's.. And if you survive the entire fight, i'll guarantee you'll have one of the highest scores on your team (if you get credit for blowing off those arms/legs, and destroying the components beneath). Turn around and on your next fight with the SAME mech, and fire at nothing but the CT of every enemy you see, and i'll guarantee your 'damage' at th end of the match will be less than the first match was.

[Haji1096]

If the Timber Wolf were available for C-bill's today everyone would use it all the time. Why would you take anything else ?

Advantages:
+Heavy mech that handles like a medium
+Speed of a medium
+Jump Jets are modular
+Small rear torso hit boxes, enables you front load armor
+Durable Clan XL engine

Disadvantages:
-Low slunk weapon mounts on arms
-Can't jump as high as other heavy mechs

Playing in a Timber Wolf is like playing a completely different game. To a much lesser extent its the same in a Stormcrow. The Dire Wolf is a distant third..low weapons, slow, horrible hit boxes.

Kit Fox, Adder, Nova, Summoner are all hot garbage compared to the Timber Wolf.

Nobody wants to be IS cannon fodder when clan mech's are released for CB. For those of you presenting anecdotal evidence that Clan mechs are not over powered....that is data gathered from a small sample size. If 90% of clan teams win in Clan vs. IS that data set has to be over a large sample size where it reduces the noise from the randomness of skill level of teams in those matches.

Furthermore, saying that you can overcome a Clan mech in a game means little. The real test would be you in a 75 ton IS mech vs you in a 75 ton Timber Wolf. Who would win then ?

Edited by Haji1096, 01 September 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

ShadowWard, on 01 September 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

A clear pattern of what though? that Clans won 90% of the Fights in Clan vs IS? and that's the entirety of what their basing their decisions on? Ive been in plenty of IS vs IS matches pre-clan that had that same turnout, 12-0 rolls. If the only thing their 'reporting' is in 'win/loss' situations, then that doesn't go into any detail at all about what 'happened' in those fights. As i said. In the 20+ fights i did on Clan Vs IS, the IS team was 'scattered' across 4-5 grids, while the Clan were nearly always right next to each other. In any match, be it Pre-Clan, Clan vs IS, or Mixed matches; The Team that is scattered tot he 4-corners of the map is going to be the one that losses nearly every time.

The reason anecdotal evidence doesn't stand as a basis for anything is sample size. The other numbers you criticize were in the hundreds or thousands of matches, depending on how many were played on the entire server when the tests were in effect. Kiiyor documented, tabulated and reported on well over four hundred matches. It's actually excruciatingly detailed and a neat read. It's right here: http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

You'll note it details win/loss, what chassis were used, kills, damage. Kills vs damage. All metrics that PGI gets in its own data as well. It's quite simply a landslide of information. Did you test all of your paper builds in combat over numerous matches? Did you record their performance? Tabulate and analyze the statistics?

I'm sorry, but nothing in this thread holds a candle to the landslide of statistical information already available.

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Again, as i showed in those loadout comparisons (yes they may not be what people consider 'the best' builds, but they work for this purpose). The tools/options needed for an IS mech to come up to being nearly even with a Clan mech are ALREADY in game. The IS pilots are just not using them because the biggest tool they need to use is an XL engine of their own.

You'll have to forgive me for culling the text wall, but as mentioned above, experiences based around one person, one build or one chassis ultimately say nothing compared to the volumes of actual data. As much as you may not want to face it, PGI can see how much damage is done with every type of weapon fielded.

There are parts of Clantech like Xl engines, Endo/Ferro and DHS that are flat-out better than their IS counterparts. Even if Clan XLs suffer a penalty for an ST loss...they're still not dead, and require continued fire to kill. Hence they are and always will be superior to IS equivalents. You're going to have to eventually realize that the only thing that will ever make them balanced is the weapons. You might even notice they're only targeting specific weapons on the test server.

Let it go. Change is going to happen.

[InspectorG]

So what would have happened on Clan release if the clans werent noticeably stronger than IS???

QQ of 'i bought an IS re-skin, i want my money back'. It was likely a better choice to have them 'so OP' and scale it back versus scrambling to appease your early adopter who feel burned after waiting...how long?

Battletech had power creep in it. Its difficult to deal with. In a game this customizable, any semblance at a 'fair' balance likely wont happen. Perhaps this could be mitigated with different play modes: stock mode, kill the king, etc.

Small maps with lots of vertical terrain would likely help the IS, flat open plains would likely favor the Clans. PGI needs to factor this in as well...

To me, the balance is mainly right and is so far fun. I do expect roles for lights and mediums other than 4x3 placeholders upon CW.

[DrRed]

Oh come on. Of course the Clan mechs are (slightly?) OP- they want to sell them for $. Just look at the 90%+ wins of Clan tech vs IS. And please- dont lie to yourself by telling yourself that IS could compete if they would simply be better played/ customized/ blablabla. It's quite simply P2W. If you argue otherwise- well I belive most of you just want to tell yourself that it's your superious skillz and not the fact you shelled out some money for an edge. Just look at the simple facts that Clans have lots of advantages for weapons (tonnage, less crits, range, damage for slightly more heat), engines (xl which survive loosing a side), ferro-fibrous/ internal structure (less crits and efficiency), typically large number of weapon slots, and heat sinks (less crits). Classical power creep.
And look what is happening now- slowly Clan tech is introduced to the plebs for Cbills (starting with the small ones like Nova and Kitfox) and -big surprise- there will be probably be some bigger nerfs. But right now, there is no reason not to play Clan- if you are willing to pay. For everyone else- well, realize that you are the sidekicks.

[terrycloth]

Caustic Valley is especially bad if you're IS playing against clans. There are a bunch of little mountains around the periphery where clanners can hide, have cover from LRMs, and shoot at you with impunity if you're fighting in the center because you have to run across a HUGE swath of open terrain to get to them.

Manifold, you get a barrage of clan lasers stripping your armor from outside your range as you come out of your spawn point. Same in Forest Colony unless you hug the cliff wall, which is why most teams hug the cliff wall. Of course if you stay in the valleys you end up with a Dire Wolf killing your entire team by standing in a choke point and taping down his mouse buttons.

Alpine actually isn't that bad. Crimson Straight has places where you can get slaughtered but you don't have to go there and unless you try to cross the saddle or fight in the water there's always cover nearby. Frozen City usually ends up being a close range fight too, although the most common battle zone has some long sight-lines.

River City... well, there's the river. It can turn into a duel across the river and then you might be in trouble.

[Bulvar Jorgensson]

I play both types of mechs, IS and Clan.

They both play different and I have enormous fun in them, even with the difference in Weapon styles/range, that is the point they play differently and require different tactics.

However PGI say they are balancing things weapon, mech wise I can hate or like, depending on what whim takes them.
Get RID o the RED Smoke of SPAM though, make it do something else other then damage or make it cost a full 100K per shot.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

in a damage hitpoints model style game, mitigation factors arise based on what will cause you to take less damage than the other guy.

in MWO this amounts to two mitigation factors. range from target, and terrain. This thereby increases the value of longer ranged weapons, higher weapon positioning, and mobile vehicles. Additionally, when you add different weapon types, typically the one that presents damage the quickest is most often preferred because it allows you to maximize range and terrain mitigators, unlike say... lasers which require you to expose and concentrate on aim for long periods of time in comparison to ppc's missiles or ballistics.

so since clan mechs tend to be more mobile in the higher weight brackets, can customize hardpoints with lighter, longer ranged weapons weapons, and because their most powerful model packs jump jets, they tend to be very powerful for the maps currently available except on the smallest ones because they kill the range advantage and reduce mobility advantages.


so how to you level the playing field? short of designing the maps to make the increased range on clan weapons pointless, or buffing is weaponry or adding some sort of is only mobility module to help reduce range and terrain factors on existing maps, the only real way to establish a level of balance I like to call "rage containment" is to introduce a queue that separates is and clan and lets them play against themselves only, however I'm not sure if we have the numbers in the community to further divide the queues when there are already long wait times. Although from a financial standpoint this could potentially encourage people to buy clan mechs to get into more recent queues, and could lay the framework for a gear laddering system whose cornerstone of sales relies on social pressure for players to keep climbing the ladder lest be left behind with nobody to play with. which is why such a queue would be optional, eventually the poor is freeloaders would either leave because they werent going to spend money anyway, or they will buy a clan mech and join the clan v clan queue for balance, because nobody plays is anymore except new players.


as things stand right now, the game is kill when everybody has a direwolf. If you don't understand why, you will.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 02 September 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[cranect]

I personally like to pick on the clan mechs. I know that it is fun to flank Direwolves in something like a Jester or a quickdraw and blow one side up before they can turn around. Then you just have to play smart and take the other side off. Also I don't know why but the mech I have had the easiest time killing Timberwolves in is the Centurion. I know that the Cent is my personal favorite, but usually I can kill the Timberwolf if I havent been dumb and run much faster than my team towards the battle. Normally when I lose it is due to the salvos of missiles that rain down on me. I bought the stormcrows and enjoyed them, but I still like my IS mechs better. Then again my favorites are the Centurion and the Awesome (which can be used to good effect against Direwolves) so I may not be right in the head according to some people. (6 PPCs on an Awesome is definitely a good build)