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The Real "non Numbers/stats" Reasons Why People Feel Clan's Are Op'd


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#41 Pjwned

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 06:44 PM

http://www.merriam-w...tionary/concise

Try keeping this word in mind OP.

#42 Comrademig

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 06:51 PM

I also played during the IS vs Clan, played most games in my Ember (in which I'm certainly not dead weight in) and lost all of them. Now looking at my avg stats for the Ember it was no where near normal avgs I usually score/win, the Clan mechs are just stronger.

Theres just no way anyone can blame a 90% win rate on tactics or load outs or IS pugs.

Edited by Comrademig, 30 August 2014 - 06:52 PM.


#43 SaltBeef

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

Where the vids proof! ?...comrade!

#44 Gwydion Ward

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:39 PM

View PostSaltBeef, on 30 August 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Where the vids proof! ?...comrade!


dont have a video, but this: http://i3.photobucke...zpsd3ffae22.jpg

Was the 'ending screen' during one of the last PTS IS vs Clan matches in which the IS actually stayed together and 'closed the gap'.

If all of the "Clans are Overpowered" chanting is correct, we should have only lost 1 or 2 mech's not end with only 4 (heavily damaged) mech's left standing. As according to them, every single IS vs Clan match is a 12-0 shutout.

*edit*
Would post the actual picture and not a link, but the pop-up box to 'insert' the image isnt workin'.

Edited by ShadowWard, 30 August 2014 - 07:51 PM.


#45 Astrocanis

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:50 PM

View PostShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:


dont have a video, but this: http://i3.photobucke...zpsd3ffae22.jpg

Was the 'ending screen' during one of the last PTS IS vs Clan matches in which the IS actually stayed together and 'closed the gap'.

If all of the "Clans are Overpowered" chanting is correct, we should have only lost 1 or 2 mech's not end with only 4 (heavily damaged) mech's left standing. As for them, every single match is a 12-0 shutout.

*edit*
Would post the actual picture and not a link, but the pop-up box to 'insert' the image isnt workin'.


Pucky. There are good matches. There are many more "less than good" matches. The fact there was one and that chat agreed does not a case make.

Clans are OP. The "THEY SHOULD BE" argument holds no water with me. Firstly, I think Stackpole (whose writing I like, by the way) pretty much destroyed BT with the introduction of the clans. Secondly (someone posted this in this thread), there are actually people being the Clan mech's pinatas. And it's not much fun.

Argue the fun angle with me if you'd like.

#46 Roland

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:


dont have a video, but this: http://i3.photobucke...zpsd3ffae22.jpg

Was the 'ending screen' during one of the last PTS IS vs Clan matches in which the IS actually stayed together and 'closed the gap'.

If all of the "Clans are Overpowered" chanting is correct, we should have only lost 1 or 2 mech's not end with only 4 (heavily damaged) mech's left standing. As according to them, every single IS vs Clan match is a 12-0 shutout.

*edit*
Would post the actual picture and not a link, but the pop-up box to 'insert' the image isnt workin'.

So, let's just get this straight.. cause I don't want to misconstrue what you are saying here.

As evidence that the clan's are not overpowered, you are presenting a game where the inner sphere mechs actually fought correctly, and did as you think they should... and they still lost 8 to 12.

Are you sure this is the evidence you want to use to support your argument? Because it seems to do the opposite.

#47 El Bandito

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:58 PM

I could just buy a T-Wolf, roll over these puggers and post a thread about how OP it is, but then people will just say, "It is not the T-Wolf, pugs just suck. Try groups".

I could buy a Nova or Kit Fox and do much better in them than my IS Lights and Mediums and post a thread, but then people will just say, "Dude you simply sucked hard with previous Lights and Mediums, it is not due to Clans".

Truly, there is no winning in this one. Just glad CERML was nerfed as I predicted.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 August 2014 - 08:08 PM.


#48 Nyden

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:27 PM

TL;DR, but I will later...

The single most OP feature of the clan mechs are the low risk, high reward XL engines.

I think the weapons are pretty balanced between IS and Clans, in fact I might give the edge to IS weapons over all, but clans get all that extra firepower with an XL engine and only a slight hit to durability compared to a mech with a standard engine. Generally, If you've lost both side torsos your out of the fight anyway. This problem could be mitigated, somewhat, if there was some kind of gradual penalty to accumulating engine damage; Say heat or movement penalties. This would hurt IS players running XL's less than clans, since they're pretty close to dead as soon as any of their engine is exposed. Also all clans are running XL's, where as most IS mechs are not, as it makes them too fragile.

My $0.02

#49 Gwydion Ward

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

View PostAstrocanis, on 30 August 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:


Clans are OP. The "THEY SHOULD BE" argument holds no water with me.


Im not saying they Should be overpowered, im saying that i honestly dont see them as being Overpowered in any of the matches i have played.

You can throw numbers around such as" Clan ERLL's do 11.3 damage while my IS beam only does 9!" and i'll just point out that your weapon, that does 2.3 damage less, ends up doing 18 damage, while at the same time creating less heat, in the time it takes that Clan beam to do its 11.3 and get to the point that it can 'start' to fire again.

View PostRoland, on 30 August 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

So, let's just get this straight.. cause I don't want to misconstrue what you are saying here.

As evidence that the clan's are not overpowered, you are presenting a game where the inner sphere mechs actually fought correctly, and did as you think they should... and they still lost 8 to 12.

Are you sure this is the evidence you want to use to support your argument? Because it seems to do the opposite.

The thing that picture dosnt show is just how damaged those 4 mech's were. Or 'where' they were. One of those 4 was on the other side of the map with 1 leg and only his CT and 1 ST left after barely managing to kill the Spider he was fighting while me and the other two were similarly damaged with missing legs, arms, or ST's.

*quick edit*
If it had been an IS vs IS match, everyone would be saying "Wow! close match! GG!".. but sense we were in the 'dreadedly overpowered' Clans. Everyone who looks at that immediately goes "SEE! they ARE overpowered!"

Edited by ShadowWard, 30 August 2014 - 08:54 PM.


#50 Pacifist

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:34 PM

View PostShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:


1.) Clan Mechs almost ALWAYS stay in a 'clump'.


This is quite true. In addition to the general belief that the Clan's field a higher number of experienced pilots.

Quote

2.) Clan weapons (pre nerfing to death) have a longer reach.


Your argument is that the IS should fight smarter and close the gap to reduce the Clans advantage of longer range and combined with Targeting Computers better zoom.

The issue is this is not an effective tactic when attempting to use an Standard engine on heavies and assaults. If I bring a 50 KPH assault because that's the only way to have a mech with a remotely comparable weapons load and damage survivability. My ability to close is well, limited.

If I bring an XL engine to allow me to close the gap quicker while retaining firepower I've reduced my damage survivability immensely.

Quote

3.) Clans can carry more firepower than me! Ok... simple answer to that is start to learn how to use Flamers.


Your first argument was that Clanners stick together. Then you tell me to close and dance around my opponents while flaming one of them. I simply don't see me lasting that long.

I need to sacrifice a medium laser and energy slot for a low possibility that it will help more than harm me. Also please remember the energy mount in the head generalization encompasses about 4 IS mechs. Wolverine/hunch/awesome/?

Then once we've managed to remove 1/2 his weapons the flamer is effectively useless anyway.


Quote

4.) Learn what to shoot at. Shoot the arms and torso's.


Let's look at the front of the Timberwolf. Arm 48, Torso 50, Center 74. Yes I can destroy a torso or arm faster than the center. However that just means I am still being shot by the rest of the Timber wolf while tearing through another 50 armor before getting to the tender bits. That's 100 points of side torso armor before it's dead or in case I shoot the arms 170 to 200 before I finaly kill it.

The center is still the quickest way. People have been killing IS for years and know the fastest way to kill them. However people have been telling the IS to strip the arms/torso's of the clanners so the IS have been spreading their fire from one side of the mech to the other. The difference in Clan XL survivability is a ridiculous advantage for the Clans.

To kill a Timberwolf with XL by side torso is 100 points of armor + internals.
To kill an Orion with XL by side torso is 44 armor + internals.


One thing you didn't mention. The shake caused by clan missiles within 180m. I've closed with mechs and still been unable to fight them effectively due to this. My vaunted pinpoint damage is of little use if I cannot hit the open section of armor.

#51 Mothykins

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:14 PM

Mostly correct.

People who are complaining about the clans are in fact suffering from the inability to adapt to new opponents or systems.

I've been driving a Locust 1V, and doing better than ever since the clans hit, because newbies to clan mechs seem to play them like IS mechs; gives me lots of room to take advantage of the speed of the Locust and the high repeat fire of a Small Pulse Laser.

People need to try to actually play the game and not just whine when something becomes slightly difficult. This isn't hand-holding hug'n'win.

#52 Roland

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:53 PM

I have no idea how far down into the steeringwheel underhive you gotta go for the locust to not be insta-killed by clan mechs.

#53 Deathlike

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:10 PM

View PostRoland, on 30 August 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

I have no idea how far down into the steeringwheel underhive you gotta go for the locust to not be insta-killed by clan mechs.


It must be legendary lag.

#54 Rando Slim

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:27 AM

Look I've never piloted a Dire Wolf ever, Im a terrible assault pilot only one I ever even tried was the Battlemaster and only because it came with the phoenix pack. So as a gag I tried it today, and it was basically like I was suddenly playing a point-and-click adventure game. 3 kills 440 damage, barely saw anything to even shoot at and was high as a kite laughing my ass off talking about other stuff the whole time.

I got a little tired of this argument one night when someone I was dropping with was getting a little full of themselves based on their success, and I was like "ok, now why don't you put up those numbers in something not called a T-wolf", and of course he was like "well if you think its so easy you do it". I said "ok fine watch I'll build it any damn way I want and probably get 600 damage with it". I got 2 kills and 670 damage my first time piloting it. I'm not good at heavy mechs either......bt oh wait that's right, a T-wolf can ******* run as fast as any medium (or close enough they cant get far enough away before you core their back out).

Yes yes this is one little anecdote but I know that none of the other 60 mechs I own can I just roll over with a random build while I'm high and drunk, pay half -assed attention and put numbers like that with no skills in the mech and no experience with it. My K/D ratio is 1.03, and I play for a semi-competitive unit. So its not like I'm good, but Im not some terrible denizen of the "underhive" either (btw good job to whoever coined that..........a fine example of how to be an elitist ****) Its too fast, too heavily armored, and perfect hitboxes.

Regarding the other clan mechs and the OP, I generally agree with everything except I guess what I see is just we get penalized for not having good in game voie chat. We need it more than ever now if we have to adapt strategy. Because yea now everyone either sits around all damn day flinging lrms and long range lasers, or they murderball brawl. Pray tell what besides arty is a remotely good counter to that from the IS side? If you try to blob and meet them, you are outgunned, if you try to flank, your team will probably **** it up from lack of communication and timing and just end up getting singled out or rolled in a small group as the 3-4 people who know what to do flank too early or too late. It isn't the weapons that are OP, its the combination of stuff, the speed, the natural blobbing, the free CASE, the MK 1 target comp, the XL engine thing. It isn't realistic to arbitrarily say well gee the t-wolf now can only go 75 with a 375 engine ( or give it a smaller engine cause then holy **** it would have even more pod space with a smaller engine) so maybe lets remove some weapon hardpoints. Another problem that's everyone knows is that long range weapons are just about as good at close range, so yea the faster fire rate of IS stuff is nice, but it doesn't make up for the fact their alpha is still 50-100 percent better than yours to begin with, and at a higher burst to one location. I think if you're seeing IS comprised teams so strung out yes its the speed variance but its also a reaction to trying to figure out what to do, trying to probe, trying to find an angle that's not being watched.since after all you cant really fight them straight up. If no such opportunities end up presenting themselves then yea we all just look like frightened cats running around.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 31 August 2014 - 12:30 AM.


#55 EboneezeeR

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:56 AM

View PostShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:





The 'range' nerfs their going to introduce are not really 'nerfs' in most regards (be it IS or Clan). Looking 'beyond' the Changes, you'll see that they are really 'balancing' the weapon's against the Weapon Modules.

If they didnt reduce the Range of the weapons, but still introduced the Lv4-Lv5 weapon mods, You'd see SL's with the range of a unmodded LPL.

More free GXP and C-B bonus or bust than.

#56 Vassago Rain

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:08 AM

Posted Image

#57 EboneezeeR

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:29 AM

View PostVassago Rain, on 31 August 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Posted Image


Does Russ dare to post it on a Facebook?

#58 Kmieciu

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:29 AM

View PostCavale, on 30 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

I've been driving a Locust 1V, and doing better than ever since the clans hit, because newbies to clan mechs seem to play them like IS mechs; gives me lots of room to take advantage of the speed of the Locust and the high repeat fire of a Small Pulse Laser.

I will counter your anecdotal evidence with mine: I bought a Nova and made a 6xERSL+5xERML+4xMG build.
As I was turning a corner on Tourmaline (second hottest map, so I was at great disadvantage) I saw a Locust running about 200 meters away from me. It immediately tried to run away. I shot my 6xERSL at it's leg (24 potential damage), then 5xERML (35 potential damage). And guess what, my aim must have been above 40% because I legged it. And the next 5xERML salvo to the CT killed it. If this is balance, then you must be a glutton for punishment.

I am truly happy that there are incoming nerfs for ERSL and ERML, they will finally be less heat efficient at close range then the IS counterparts. Clan versions will still have more range and alpha potential, but IS will be better at prolonged brawling.

PS. If you think Nova is a bad mech,try a HBK-4P for a change. No JJ, less range, less alpha, less heat sinks, no machineguns and twice as easy to disarm.

Edited by Kmieciu, 31 August 2014 - 01:31 AM.


#59 Dirgez

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:17 AM

Unfortunately this argument will never end. If you think nerfing ERSL and ERML will do anything to balance them against IS tech then you are never gonna be happy. Speed and attack range has always been the decisive elements of the mechwarrior series. Clan technology is designed to capitalize on these elements. As long as this continues to be the case, clans will always have the edge over the IS. (Why do you think salvaging became so popular in BT? Did the IS just really like trophies to show off or thought foreign mechs would add culture their museums? ...No, they patch them up and used them or stripped them of usable tech and put it on other mechs.)

The Clans are the bogeyman to the IS. The saga is a test of courage and endurance for the IS. The Mechwarrior universe is not symmetrical, so why do some think symmetry style balance is the expectation of the game?

#60 EboneezeeR

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 02:56 AM

View PostAstrocanis, on 30 August 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:




Clans are OP. The "THEY SHOULD BE" argument holds no water with me. Firstly, I think Stackpole (whose writing I like, by the way) pretty much destroyed BT with the introduction of the clans. Secondly (someone posted this in this thread), there are actually people being the Clan mech's pinatas. And it's not much fun.



Exactly that is where all that rubbish is started... and continued by those who do not want learn how to play. So if they are SO ignarant it will be better if PGI rolls all stats and values to match Sarna lore. End of story.





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