74 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Lord Scarlett Johan of Yazoo, on 31 August 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

I can see it now. All the weapons will have their ranges nerfed and in order to have their TT range values you have to invest in the Level 5 Range Module.

[WM Wraith]

Khobai, on 31 August 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Almost every player universally agrees the ISSL and ISML should have their heat unnerfed. Swaybacks are no longer a thing. And ghost heat is in place now anyway.

ISML should be 3 heat
ISSL should be 1.5 heat and 120m range (100m still sucks, even machine guns got 120m)

So doesnt it make way more sense to unnerf these weapons before jumping the gun on nerfing clan lasers?

It seems to me that these stats would be fine for laser balance....

ISSL, 3 damage, 1.5 heat, 120m, 0.75 duration
ISML, 5 damage, 3 heat, 270m, 1.0 duratoin

CERSL, 4 damage, 2.4 heat, 200m, 1.0 duration
CERML, 6 damage, 4.5 heat, 400m, 1.3 duration

Much support for this Paul, Niko, others at PGI if you are listening

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 31 August 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

He buffed machine guns

Only because it was excessively whined to death... with good reason.

Back in the "dark ages" of the MG, I would literally outright ignore the Spider-5K because it would never be a threat to me, regardless of what mech I was in. 4 MGs is like being the tickle monster... except I don't know if Paul is ticklish.

[EvilCow]

There are changes that could have had a meaning back in their time but now are absolutely pointless or even damaging.

Restoring the Victor agility, the IS lasers efficiency, the Raven legs, the Catapult torso tilt and twist ranges, etc, would go a long way into helping balancing IS and Clans without having to nerf the Clan technology.

PGI should really consider trying to balance by attempting positive changes before going in the nerf direction, it is basic psychology, better be in the role of those who listen and give than those who take away.

Edited by EvilCow, 01 September 2014 - 12:34 AM.

[Khobai]

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Restoring the Victor agility

It was wrong for them to target the Victor specifically for nerfs. The problem is they have torso twist speed tied to engine rating. So the Victor could put in like a 340-350 engine and have better agility than it should for an assault. But ANY mech can do that not just the Victor, and its still a huge problem, even after the Victor nerfs (i.e. Timber Wolf with its 375 engine)

What they needed to do was untether torso twist speed from engine rating. torso twist speed should be determined solely by the tonnage of a mech, and any positive/negative quirks, rather than its engine rating. Engine rating should have zero effect on torso twist speed and should only affect max speed and turning speed.

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ISSL should be 1.5 heat and 120m range (100m still sucks, even machine guns got 120m)

1 heat would be too good. It would give a 3:1 damage to heat ratio which is unheard of among our current energy weapons. 1.5 heat is more in line with the current weapons. Also remember it would be getting a 33% range increase from its TT 90m to the suggested 120m.

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I think 4.5 is too low, I think 5 to 5.5. is good for CERML.

4.5 heat might be too low, but 5.5 is certainly too high. CERML at 6 damage should definitely be somewhere in the 4.5-5.0 heat range. At 6 damage for 4.5 heat its slightly worse than the current CERML which is 7 damage for 5 heat. So I figured that was a good value to start at, the heat can always be increased later if its too low.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

It was wrong for them to target the Victor specifically for nerfs. The problem is they have torso twist speed tied to engine rating. So the Victor could put in like a 340-350 engine and have better agility than it should for an assault. But ANY mech can do that not just the Victor, and its still a huge problem, even after the Victor nerfs (i.e. Timber Wolf with its 375 engine)

What they needed to do was untether torso twist speed from engine rating. torso twist speed should be determined solely by the tonnage of a mech, and any positive/negative quirks, rather than its engine rating. Engine rating should have zero effect on torso twist speed and should only affect max speed and turning speed.

People keep saying this, but I refuse to run an Atlas with lower than a 350 in the pug queue.

This is for torso twist speed, so I can keep myself alive.




We can't keep arguing we want longer TTK and then continually argue to remove the tools that let people keep themselves alive longer.


So I think, as it's 20 tons lighter, the Victor SHOULD torso twist faster than other assault mechs that are not the Awesome (since they are both 80 tons).

Just as Heavy mechs should torso twist faster than that, and mediums faster still, etc. (Which they all do now by the way)


So uncoupling engine speeds from torso twist speed and say basing Assault mechs on a 300 Atlas will see LOWER TTK for assaults not better.



This is a two sided coin, just long beam durations.

Long beam durations are being added to improve TTK - yet what this does is force the USER to soak more damage to use their weapon.

At best everyone breaks even, and nothing was really accomplished except we have more weapons which feel derpy to use, and smart players will find other builds to play.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 September 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Cerlin]

How is this not a good idea? I totally agree.

Un-nerf IS stuff before overnerfing clans.

[Khobai]

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People keep saying this, but I refuse to run an Atlas with lower than a 350 in the pug queue.

This is for torso twist speed, so I can keep myself alive.

Right but quirks would still contribute to torso twist speed. For example, the Atlas could simply be given a quirk which increases its torso twist speed by 10%-15%. So if its torso twist speed is locked in at its stock torso twist speed with a 300 engine, then the Atlas would still torso twist as though it had a 330-345 engine. The Atlas should also get a quirk that gives 10% damage reduction to its side torsos, because its weapons need better protection, since it doesnt get very many weapons for a 100 ton mech.

Putting a bigger engine in should NOT make a mech torso twist faster though. Torso twist speed should be locked in based on the tonnage of the mech and any quirks the mech has. Allowing bigger engines to increase torso twist speed has caused nothing but balance problems by allowing mechs like the Victor and Timber Wolf to have the same mobility as mechs in lower weight classes. Its bad enough heavies practically go as fast as mediums, but they shouldnt torso twist nearly as well too.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Right but quirks would still contribute to torso twist speed. For example, the Atlas could simply be given a quirk which increases its torso twist speed by 10%-15%. So if its torso twist speed is locked in at its stock torso twist speed with a 300 engine, then the Atlas would still torso twist as though it had a 330-345 engine. The Atlas should also get a quirk that gives 10% damage reduction to its side torsos, because its weapons need better protection, since it doesnt get very many weapons for a 100 ton mech.

Putting a bigger engine in should NOT make a mech torso twist faster though. Torso twist speed should be locked in based on the tonnage of the mech and any quirks the mech has. Allowing bigger engines to increase torso twist speed has caused nothing but balance problems by allowing mechs like the Victor and Timber Wolf to have the same mobility as mechs in lower weight classes.

You are still missing the point.

Why we do give ONE ASSAULT mech special quirks to let it torso twist better to protect itself but not all of the Assault mechs?



Lowering torso twist speed for most Assaults and Heavies will see them die faster.

Is this what you are advocating?


Remember, torso twist speed is not based SOLELY on engine size it is based on ENGINE vs. MECH TONNAGE.

With a 300 engine lighter mechs are always supposed to torso twist faster than heavier mechs.


So do we base all of them on a 350 engine?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 September 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[Khobai]

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Why we do give ONE ASSAULT mech special quirks to let it torso twist better to protect itself but not all of the Assault mechs?

Simply put because the Atlas is worse than other assault mechs. The Banshee/Stalker have more weapons, higher mounted weapons, a smaller profile, so for balance reasons they shouldnt torso twist as fast as an Atlas. And the Victor/Awesome are light enough that theyll still torso twist fine. The only other assault thats possibly worse than an Atlas is the Battlemaster which should also be given torso twist quirks.

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Lowering torso twist speed for most Assaults and Heavies will see them die faster.

You say that like its only a bad thing. Assaults and heavies completely dominate the queue right now. Maybe if they died a little faster players would play mediums and lights more. The only way youre going to see mediums make a comeback is if their agility actually means something, and the only way to make that happen is to make heavier mechs less agile.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Simply put because the Atlas is worse than other assault mechs. The Stalker has more weapons, higher mounted weapons, a smaller profile, so for balance reasons it shouldnt torso twist as fast as an Atlas.

You're just being biased, and silly for that matter.

You're also forgetting all of the other quirks like how far mechs can twist (I'll give you a hint, the Atlas has much farther torso twist than the Stalker).


So basically you are advocating every other Assault mech have less ability to defend itself than the Atlas on top of the weight gap?

[Khobai]

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You're just being biased, and silly for that matter.

Im not really being biased at all. I want all four weight classes to be on equal footing. Youre the one that doesnt want your precious assaults to get nerfed. Thats inherently biased.

Assault and heavy mechs having too much maneuverability is one of the huge reasons mediums are in the rut theyre in now. Because the heavier mechs are so agile that mediums cant possibly stay out of their gunsights.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Right but quirks would still contribute to torso twist speed. For example, the Atlas could simply be given a quirk which increases its torso twist speed by 10%-15%. So if its torso twist speed is locked in at its stock torso twist speed with a 300 engine, then the Atlas would still torso twist as though it had a 330-345 engine. The Atlas should also get a quirk that gives 10% damage reduction to its side torsos, because its weapons need better protection, since it doesnt get very many weapons for a 100 ton mech.

Putting a bigger engine in should NOT make a mech torso twist faster though. Torso twist speed should be locked in based on the tonnage of the mech and any quirks the mech has. Allowing bigger engines to increase torso twist speed has caused nothing but balance problems by allowing mechs like the Victor and Timber Wolf to have the same mobility as mechs in lower weight classes. Its bad enough heavies practically go as fast as mediums, but they shouldnt torso twist nearly as well too.

Outside the 60 tonners...which heavies are almost as fast as mediums?

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Im not really being biased at all. I want all four weight classes to be on equal footing. Youre the one that doesnt want your precious assaults to get nerfed. Thats inherently biased.

Assault and heavy mechs having too much maneuverability is one of the huge reasons mediums are in the rut theyre in now. Because the heavier mechs are so agile that mediums cant possibly stay out of their gunsights.

You drive mediums that are far too slow...there is an XL engine waiting to get to know you...(unless you drive a centurion...at which point...just say no!)

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Im not really being biased at all. I want all four weight classes to be on equal footing. Youre the one that doesnt want your precious assaults to get nerfed. Thats inherently biased.

Assault and heavy mechs having too much maneuverability is one of the huge reasons mediums are in the rut theyre in now. Because the heavier mechs are so agile that mediums cant possibly stay out of their gunsights.

Except that's just not true.

My Shadowhawk maneuvers just fine, thanks. What's more I play Heavies more than I play Assaults.


People who think Assaults and Heavies maneuver "as well as mediums" are either delusional or full of it (except for Dragons and Quickdraws, who should be close to Shadowhawks anyway)


The reason "mediums are in a rut" is because battle tech was designed with Medium mechs being cheap and plentiful.

They were never meant to go toe to toe with larger mechs - and yet a good player in this game can actually do that.



My gripe about mediums has ZERO to do with maneuverability, my problem with them is that they are FREAKING HUGE.

Seriously, the 55T Shadowhawk is about as tall as the 100T Dire Wolf. That is ridiculous.

It's even worse for the wider Mediums, that's why people complain about the Nova, the Cent, etc.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Im not really being biased at all. I want all four weight classes to be on equal footing. Youre the one that doesnt want your precious assaults to get nerfed. Thats inherently biased.

Assault and heavy mechs having too much maneuverability is one of the huge reasons mediums are in the rut theyre in now. Because the heavier mechs are so agile that mediums cant possibly stay out of their gunsights.

If you are trying to circle fight a heavy in a medium, you are doing it wrong; try fighting from cover and using hit-n-run maneuvers. As for the heaviest class, it's easy to circle an Assault with a Medium. And you don't even need an XL! The only one you shouldn't do this with is a Dire Wolf and that's just because it merely needs a snapshot of you in its sights to brutalize your machine. An Atlas? Highlander? Battlemaster? Victor? Awesome? Stalker? Easy prey.

[kapusta11]

What about "Ghost Buff", like if you fire 1 MLAS it cost 2 heat, 2 - 3 heat, 3 - 4 etc. Sounds stupid enough, PGI might listen!

[KraftySOT]

I hate all of you.

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

Which corresponds with a medium laser having 3x as much range as a small laser (why it has only 1 heat).

They did this for a reason. Theres no reason for it to have more range, or more heat generation. Thats what a medium laser is for.

Edited by KraftySOT, 01 September 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[Khobai]

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As for the heaviest class, it's easy to circle an Assault with a Medium.

If you say so. I have zero problems tracking kitfoxes going 106kph in my Daishi. Mediums are even easier because most of them are as tall or wide as I am. If I can do that in a Daishi, which is the worst turning mech in the game, then obviously theres a problem. Assaults and heavies are way too agile. period.

Admittedly I have trouble hitting lights going 150kph. But not the lights going 106kph. And certainly not mediums. Mediums are free kills in my daishi.

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Which corresponds with a medium laser having 3x as much range as a small laser (why it has only 1 heat).

I still think SLs should be set to 1.5 heat. 1 heat would mean you NEVER have to worry about overheating and that goes against the purpose of having a heat system, which is to force players to manage their heat levels.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

If you say so. I have zero problems tracking kitfoxes going 106kph in my Daishi. Mediums are even easier because most of them are as tall or wide as I am.

Which is freaking ********. You absolutely should have trouble hitting a light moving what amounts to 10 hexes a turn, even in open terrain.

[FDJustin]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 September 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

If you are trying to circle fight a heavy in a medium, you are doing it wrong; try fighting from cover and using hit-n-run maneuvers. As for the heaviest class, it's easy to circle an Assault with a Medium. And you don't even need an XL! The only one you shouldn't do this with is a Dire Wolf and that's just because it merely needs a snapshot of you in its sights to brutalize your machine. An Atlas? Highlander? Battlemaster? Victor? Awesome? Stalker? Easy prey.

The only assault that's easy prey in a circle fight is a bad pilot that ignores terrain, panics, and either tries to turn in only one direction or runs away from you.