74 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

I still think SLs should be set to 1.5 heat. 1 heat would mean you NEVER have to worry about overheating and that goes against the purpose of having a heat system, which is to force players to manage their heat levels.

Presently, 8 SLs will overheat 23 DHS in around 50 seconds.

The SLs with horrendous range, have no reason not to be 1 heat.

[Carrie Harder]

Mcgral18, on 01 September 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Presently, 8 SLs will overheat 23 DHS in around 50 seconds.

The SLs with horrendous range, have no reason not to be 1 heat.

Heck, they could even stand to be slightly less than 1, which could give them a niche similar to the beam equivalent of the Machine Gun (short range "heatless" damage). Then there might be a reason to go with SL over ML sometimes...gasp!

And for the SPL, given that it's equal tonnage to the ML, could be somehow made to beat the ML in close combat (i.e. faster RoF for more DPS or whatever). So, for the lightweight IS energy weapons, this creates three roles: ML for jack of all trades and range, SL for heat efficiency, and SPL for brawling/DPS. Thoughts?

EDIT: Almost forgot about the Flamer. That would be the lightweight "utility" energy weapon, if Paul felt like making it useful someday...

Edited by Carrie Harder, 01 September 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Carrie Harder, on 01 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Heck, they could even stand to be slightly less than 1, which could give them a niche similar to the beam equivalent of the Machine Gun (short range "heatless" damage). Then there might be a reason to go with SL over ML sometimes...gasp!

And for the SPL, given that it's equal tonnage to the ML, could be somehow made to beat the ML in close combat (i.e. faster RoF for more DPS or whatever). So, for the lightweight IS energy weapons, this creates three roles: ML for jack of all trades and range, SL for heat efficiency, and SPL for brawling/DPS. Thoughts?

Pulse lasers need more damage to make them really worthwhile over their normal beam counterparts.
Faster RoF is a nice way to do it, since it also costs lots of heat to get that extra damage. This means you might be better off taking a single MPL over two MLs at short range. But that might be excessive.

The only reason I take them is for both the Lulz and a challenge.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 September 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Carrie Harder]

Mcgral18, on 01 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Pulse lasers need more damage to make them really worthwhile over their normal beam counterparts.

The only reason I take them is for both the Lulz and a challenge.

I've always wondered what increasing the SPL's damage to 4 would do. Although, I get kind of nostalgic for the lower upfront damage but higher DPS "laser machine guns" from MW4 (I don't have the exact numbers, but an SPL there did actually out-DPS an ML by some amount). Full-auto wub-wub would be fun, and fun is not allowed.

EDIT: MW4 ML is 0.833 DPS, and the SPL is 2.8 DPS. Quite a huge difference! Of course, the SPL also runs hotter... (1.6 heat per second versus 0.5833 heat per second).

Edited by Carrie Harder, 01 September 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Asyres]

Mcgral18, on 01 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Pulse lasers need more damage to make them really worthwhile over their normal beam counterparts.
Faster RoF is a nice way to do it, since it also costs lots of heat to get that extra damage. This means you might be better off taking a single MPL over two MLs at short range. But that might be excessive.

The only reason I take them is for both the Lulz and a challenge.

The shorter beam duration is nice as well - though it's far from enough. I'd really like to see pulses get buffed a bit (or more than a bit).

[FDJustin]

Carrie Harder, on 01 September 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

ML for jack of all trades and range, SL for heat efficiency, and SPL for brawling/DPS. Thoughts?

They have near identical DPS. SPL has a greater ability to focus the damage in one spot (and greater ability to miss entirely, or put all the damage on a friendly- Which tends not to be an issue due to engagement range.)
ML has much, much more range. That makes it more useful in general.
SPL's run 13% colder, letting you get that one extra shot in for overall more damage than heat in a prolonged engagement...

SPL is slightly better in a very limited scope, ML will almost always out damage it due to range and allows for better control of the battlefield.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 01 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

If you say so. I have zero problems tracking kitfoxes going 106kph in my Daishi. Mediums are even easier because most of them are as tall or wide as I am. If I can do that in a Daishi, which is the worst turning mech in the game, then obviously theres a problem. Assaults and heavies are way too agile. period.

Admittedly I have trouble hitting lights going 150kph. But not the lights going 106kph. And certainly not mediums. Mediums are free kills in my daishi.

Are you saying that Assault mechs should be so slow they cannot hit Kitfoxes or Medium mechs with their weapons?

[Asyres]

Ultimatum X, on 01 September 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Are you saying that Assault mechs should be so slow they cannot hit Kitfoxes or Medium mechs with their weapons?

It's pretty reasonable to have make heavier mechs at least somewhat vulnerable to quick, lighter ones. A good way to do this might be to make the available efficiencies change by mech class (or even chassis) - heavier ones might not get anchor turn, for instance, but might get something else.

[FDJustin]

Carrie Harder, on 01 September 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I've always wondered what increasing the SPL's damage to 4 would do. Although, I get kind of nostalgic for the lower upfront damage but higher DPS "laser machine guns" from MW4 (I don't have the exact numbers, but an SPL there did actually out-DPS an ML by some amount). Full-auto wub-wub would be fun, and fun is not allowed.

EDIT: MW4 ML is 0.833 DPS, and the SPL is 2.8 DPS. Quite a huge difference! Of course, the SPL also runs hotter... (1.6 heat per second versus 0.5833 heat per second).

If you chain 6 SPL together, you have just the right number for a continuous stream of little pops. A 15% increase can make a very big difference. Sometimes I have good games of 300+ damage. 635 or so in my biggest outlier.

368 damage across 6 spl's. .6 damage more per shot would have meant a score of 433. 65 damage could have been the difference of two or three kills.

[Y E O N N E]

FDJustin, on 01 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

The only assault that's easy prey in a circle fight is a bad pilot that ignores terrain, panics, and either tries to turn in only one direction or runs away from you.

You aren't driving things as fast as I am, then, or you are circling too far away. There is no Assault with the same turn-in as a fast medium, and if you stop moving for a second and cut the circle with a line, you will find yourself to the Assault's left or right and at that point there isn't much he can do to get you in the center again. By the time he does, if he can, he will either be dead or seriously injured to the point where he can't pursue.

Where the Assault is strong is before you get within range to do all of that. And by within range, I mean under 100 meters.

All of that aside, nobody should ever circle fight. I don't generally do it, I prefer to hit and run. And if I do get into a 1--v-1, I don't circle as much as I make cross patterns.

[FDJustin]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 September 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

You aren't driving things as fast as I am, then, or you are circling too far away. There is no Assault with the same turn-in as a fast medium, and if you stop moving for a second and cut the circle with a line, you will find yourself to the Assault's left or right and at that point there isn't much he can do to get you in the center again. By the time he does, if he can, he will either be dead or seriously injured to the point where he can't pursue.

Where the Assault is strong is before you get within range to do all of that. And by within range, I mean under 100 meters.

All of that aside, nobody should ever circle fight. I don't generally do it, I prefer to hit and run. And if I do get into a 1--v-1, I don't circle as much as I make cross patterns.

I run a Firestarter at 135kph. Only a poor assault pilot is an easy target for circle fighting, or one who's running an abnormally weak engine. I'm not saying they have the advantage, I'm saying you can't just stay behind an assault with impunity unless it's a bad pilot.

[Coolant]

Stefka Kerensky, on 31 August 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

and let's add that slow and ridiculous floating in the air "energy ball", also know as ppc-projectile.
Now usefull as medium range weapons.....
....... aaaaahhhhh good ol sniping time, now gone forever.....

good...

[Y E O N N E]

FDJustin, on 01 September 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

I run a Firestarter at 135kph. Only a poor assault pilot is an easy target for circle fighting, or one who's running an abnormally weak engine. I'm not saying they have the advantage, I'm saying you can't just stay behind an assault with impunity unless it's a bad pilot.

And I'm not suggesting I am staying behind them with impunity. Rather, I'm saying that it is possible to maneuver in such a way that the Assault has a hard time baring all of his teeth. I expect to get shot and damaged, but I have more control over the where and when than the target does. The target is going to be forced into taking shots that present themselves while I get to take the shots I actually want. I will also usually get to present more weapons at once.

What all this means is that I might lose armor in tons of places but my target is going to get killed from repeated strikes to the same location.

It's Light Piloting 101, applied to fast mediums. The Medium can't quite zip around the target and game the weapon cool-downs and turn rates like the Light can, but it's still fast enough to nullify half the weapons on the target while the armor compensates for the rest.

And to finish, like I said, nobody should actually be circling the target like a merry-go-round.

[STEF_]

Coolant, on 01 September 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

good...

Not good.
And of course I didn't play only the sniper role.
I would like to choose, but now we have less option available.
And that's not good.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The biggest advantage (Clan vs IS laser equivalent) is the MLaser. The Clan version (ER) is WAY better than the IS MLasers (even taking into affect the beam duration).

I would at least like to see ghost heat lifted off of IS MLasers. If that isn't possible, then maybe the Clan ERMLaser needs a longer yet duration.

Still, I'd sacrifice a nerf to Clan ERMLasers if it mean't I could run my Swayback again in it's full glory. I do still run it, but it just isn't the same.

[MeiSooHaityu]

P.S. I said what I said about MLasers because I looked into it in another post earlier...

Food for thought...

That one advantage that the Clan energy weapons have (range and a small bit of damage) is far more important than a lot of people give it credit for. IS will have the advantage with the shorter beam duration, but only if an IS mech can close the distance between him and the enemy to within his optimal firing range, and do it without taking a ton of damage.

For an example, we will use the workhorse of the mech world, the IS MLaser and the Clan ERMLaser

• The Clan ERMLaser applies 2 additional damage per burst (7 damage vs 5 damage from IS MLaser).
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's max range is 360m further (900m vs 540m from IS)
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's optimal damage range is 180m further (400m vs 270m)

Now I don't have a drop off table, but lets assume for an IS MLaser, 5 damage goes down to 2~3 damage at about 400m. The Clan ERMLaser is still doing 7 damage at that range (still at his optimal firing range).


If I am running an IS mech with 4MLasers, and fire at 400m out (relatively medium range and well within most mech engagment ranges), I am applying at the most (12 damage per burst). A Clan mech running the same loadout (4 ERMLasers) is doing an astonishing 28 damage at the same range.

Now the clan has a 30% longer beam duration, but...

• At 400m, you shouldn't have a problem keeping a reticule on most moving mechs (Heavies and Assaults, and even Mediums and all but the fastest lights)
  
• if an IS mech does 12 damage at 400m in 1 sec., a Clan ERMLaser is still doing approx. 18 damage within the first 1 sec. That is still almost 1 additional MLaser extra vs the IS mech for the same tonnage
  
• The longer the ranges (up to 540m, the larger the descrepancy)

Then once you get past 540, the clan mech is still pegging you with damage that you can't return.


Now some say...Learn to play and torso twist to spread damage. All mech pilots try and do that regardless of what mech is shooting you (IS or Clan). Even with torso twisting (at 400m)...

• If an IS mech fires 4 MLasers and hits 3 chassis locations (assuming the entire beam duration hits), you might do 4 damage per mech location.
  
• If a Clan mech fires 4 ERMLasers and hits 3 chassis locations (assuming the entire beam duration hits), you will do just over 9 damage per location
  
• If we limit the clan duration to the same as the IS...say after 1 sec your shot misses all together as a Clanner due to the longer beam duration, you still do 6 damage per location (twice as much).

This is just the MLaser, the Large lasers ranges are more extensive and maybe things start to equalize out with the IS ERLLaser.


Really, the only way to even things out in the example above is to close within 270m and try and circle straffe. Make it hard for a clanner to keep the full beam duration on you and hope for the best. Even then though, he is still doing 2 more damage per laser (8 more total for 4MLasers).

This tactic sounds great, but even people on the forums know that brawling (which is what 270m falls within) is hard to do. The Clanners do enjoy a really good energy weapon. I think that is why a 2 C-ERLLaser, 5 C-ERMLaser Storm Crow is a very potent enemy.

That is why I think anyone who thinks the duration on Clan energy makes them inferior to IS isn't looking at the whole picture. Maybe inferior at the shortest of ranges, but most engagements are farther out in MWO, and the Clan's optimal range advantage is just massive (even with the longer durations).

Im taking this from Smurfy, so I am thinking these values are right.
[color="#b27204"]http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment[/color]

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 September 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[Koniving]

Eh.

Khobai's request seems reasonable with the long range IS SL... but the longer the IS SL range gets, the more range the Clan ER SL gets... which is why the Clan ER LL was such b.s. to begin with, all the IS LL buffs got applied to the Clan ER LL. The extra heat makes it kinda reasonable...

But still prefer pure canon values for heat. 1 heat for an SL. I mean you won't ever use them if an ML is simply more efficient.

Edited by Koniving, 02 September 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Koniving]

MeiSooHaityu, on 02 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

For an example, we will use the workhorse of the mech world, the IS MLaser and the Clan ERMLaser

• The Clan ERMLaser applies 2 additional damage per burst (7 damage vs 5 damage from IS MLaser).
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's max range is 360m further (900m vs 540m from IS)
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's optimal damage range is 180m further (400m vs 270m)

Surprisingly that's with the Clan ER ML blatantly nerfed into the ground.

-----
On a similar note.

A bit ago I started tweaking some values myself. I came up with several variations. This one just puts pure canon values in with PGI's original setup for beam durations. I'll keep the variations to myself but they mostly consisted of longer recharge times, shorter beam times, longer beam times, shorter recharge times, etc. Just toying with firing rates to compare damage in X time between the two.

Anyway again this is the original PGI setup for beam times and cooldown times with canon values slapped in.

Lasers
IS

• Small Laser. Beam time 0.75 seconds and cooldown 2.25 seconds. 1 heat, 3 damage. 90 meters. (Refire rate 3 seconds.)
  
• Medium Laser. Beam time 1 seconds and cooldown 3 seconds. 3 heat, 5 damage. 270 meters. (Refire rate 4 seconds.)
  
• Large Laser. Beam time 1 second and cooldown 3.25 seconds. 8 heat, 8 damage. 450 meters. (Refire rate 4.25 seconds.)
  
• ER Large Laser. Beam time 1 seconds and cooldown 3.25 seconds 12 heat, 8 damage. 570 meters. (Refire rate 4.25 seconds). [For this weapon, rather than a gradual damage incline from full to less it is probably better to give it the opposite of the Clan LRM treatment, damage very slowly drops off to 1.5 times optimal range (3/4th max range) and then drastically drops beyond it. However whatever treatment this gets the Clan ER LL is also supposed to get so keep that in mind.]

Clan

• ER Small Laser. Beam time 1 second. Cooldown 2.25 seconds. (In 0.75 seconds it deals 3.75 damage). 2 heat, 5 damage. 180 meters. [Refire rate 3.25 seconds.]
  
• ER Medium Laser. Beam time 1.3 seconds. Cooldown 3.0 seconds. (In 1 second it deals 5.38(trunicated) damage). [The damage it does in one second severely inflates the 'reported' damage at the end of a mission I might add. 1.25 is a much more even number resulting in 5.6 damage in 1 second which will not inflate reported damage numbers]. 5 heat, 7 damage. 450 meters. (Refire rate 4.3 seconds.)
  
• ER Large Laser. Beam time 1.5 seconds. Cooldown 3.25 seconds. (In 1 second it deals 6.67 damage). 12 heat, 10 damage. 750 meters. (Refire rate 4.75 seconds.)

In addition to the damage dealt in X beam time, it should be noted that the refire rate is beam time + cooldown.

Side by side.

Small Laser. Beam time 0.75 seconds and cooldown 2.25 seconds. 1 heat, 3 damage. 90 meters. (Refire rate 3 seconds.)
Clan ER Small Laser. Beam time 1 second. Cooldown 2.25 seconds. (In 0.75 seconds it deals 3.75 damage). 2 heat, 5 damage. 180 meters. [Refire rate 3.25 seconds.]

Medium Laser. Beam time 1 seconds and cooldown 3 seconds. 3 heat, 5 damage. 270 meters. (Refire rate 4 seconds.)
Clan ER Medium Laser. Beam time 1.3 seconds. Cooldown 3.0 seconds. (In 1 second it deals 5.38(trunicated) damage). 5 heat, 7 damage. 450 meters. (Refire rate 4.3 seconds.)

Large Laser. Beam time 1 second and cooldown 3.25 seconds. 8 heat, 8 damage. 450 meters. (Refire rate 4.25 seconds.)

ER Large Laser. Beam time 1 seconds and cooldown 3.25 seconds 12 heat, 8 damage. 570 meters. (Refire rate 4.25 seconds).
Clan ER Large Laser. Beam time 1.5 seconds. Cooldown 3.25 seconds. (In 1 second it deals 6.67 damage). 12 heat, 10 damage. 750 meters. (Refire rate 4.75 seconds.)

One thing to remember is that eventually the Inner Sphere does get its own ER lasers. Any "nerfs" or tweaks to Clan ER lasers will coincide with and be done to IS ER lasers, making them worthless in the eyes of many. The Inner Sphere ER lasers will certainly lose almost all real value with any "nerfed" ER lasers.

I'm sure you've seen from the public test the plan to make an Inner Sphere ER LL have a beam time of 1.5 seconds to counter the other IS ER LL buffs it's had for ages (super low heat, super long range, extra damage). The Clan ER LL got nerfed to crap because it also received the same buffs as the IS ER LL.

So remember whatever happens to one will happen to the other.

Edited by Koniving, 02 September 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[FDJustin]

We should be comparing the ER's to ISER's... But that wouldn't look much better. You'd see weapons that still outdamage, outrange, and run much cooler. The range gap would be closer though, and in theory the IS weapons would have shorter burn times, but if the recent test server change to ERLL's burn time of 1.5 is any indication, they'd all be basically trash weapons.

*I assume ISER's would have +50% range for +22% heat, keeping in line with the ERLL.

Edited by FDJustin, 02 September 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Khobai's request seems reasonable with the long range IS SL... but the longer the IS SL range gets, the more range the Clan ER SL gets... which is why the Clan ER LL was such b.s. to begin with, all the IS LL buffs got applied to the Clan ER LL. The extra heat makes it kinda reasonable...

Right but my whole point was that they should scrap canon clan values completely. Just throw them out the window. And rebalance clan weapons based around what works for THIS game.

Whats wrong with having the ERML at 6 damage? Why does it need to be 7? Its much easier to balance at 6 damage because its only 20% more damage than an ISML instead of 40% more damage.

CERLL = 10 damage, 750m range, 9.5 heat, 1.5 beam duration
ISERLL = 9 damage, 675m range, 8.5 heat, 1.3 beam duration
ISLL = 9 damage, 450m range, 7.0 heat, 1.0 beam duration (shorter beam duration than ISERLL)

CERML = 6 damage, 360m range, 4.5 heat, and 1.3 beam duration
ISML = 5 damage, 270m range, 3.0 heat, 1.0 beam duration

CERSL = 4 damage, 200m range, 2.4 heat, and 1.0 beam duration
ISSL = 3 damage, 120m range, 1.5 heat, and and 0.75 beam duration

That seems far more balanced to me than what PGI is doing... The way theyre balancing weapons is just ridiculous and lazy.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2014 - 09:42 AM.